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April 25, 2024, 12:21 AM

Author Topic: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!  (Read 21381 times)

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Offline TheKomodo

Re: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2013, 04:44 PM »
@Komo, I think it matters though. It's not in the interest of a league that the best player ALWAYS wins. There should be real competition, close games and all that, and not players totally butchering other players who are merely 1% weaker. If you let both players 10-12 worms in TTRR, then what's the point of a noob (like me ;)) playing vs the top guys nemore? I would just give the other guy a free win and get on with my life lol.

Well, I can see where you are coming from but I feel like it's the players duty to become good at that scheme, therefor I actually feel this change would better represent the better players.

And anyway, I don't wanna win a game cuz my opponent didn't even finish, I ain't a charity case lol.

Offline HHC

Re: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2013, 04:51 PM »
Well, in the old days we RR'ed 30 seconds. If you finished in the same turn it was a draw  :)

In those days it was much more important to be reliable and NOT FALL. That aspect has been taken out almost completely and will be 100% if you give players 5 or more worms.

So yeah, guess it's what you want RR to be. A speed contest or more of a reliability contest.

I have no probs with going all out on speed roping, but yeh... some people won't be able to stand a chance anymore.

Re: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2013, 04:53 PM »
interesting changes, i might have to start tusing again

i always wanted roper to have 2 worms!

Offline GreatProfe

Re: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2013, 05:09 PM »
I am really looking forward to this, great choices :)

I agree with HHC about T17/Elite, and TTRR he has a good point about it being harder to beat the good players but, I guess if you wanna beat the good players you should focus on TTRR and become as good as them, I don't think this is an excuse, it's your responsibility to get as good as you can at a scheme if you care too much about it, and I think 5 worms is a nice idea.

I agree 100%.

I have to congratz MI to do these changes (although there are some of them what I dislike), TUS needed a huge change in schemes. Congratz Big Boss!  8)

About Shopper scheme:

Shopper   https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-488/

Offline Swist

Re: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2013, 06:10 PM »
With 5 worms in ttrr sir-j/statik/other pros will do challenge's time not to beat ;\.

Offline avirex

Re: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2013, 06:20 PM »
this all sounds great... good job monkeyisland taking the first step to fix schemes....



knocking in elite... hmm... ok, lets experiment.


2 worms in roper... what exactly is this fixing?? i like 2 worm in roper, but whats the meaning behind it, other then franz likes 2 worms as well...   why dont we try to address the main problem at hand with roper during this experimental season, and thats the cr8 rules...



also, would it be a nice idea to use /ts in hysteria as well?? would be nice when you have to aim all the way up, from a horizontal position, that feature would come in handy.

Re: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2013, 06:32 PM »
Knocking in elite is interesting. On one hand, it might be a lethal weapon since there are only 4 worms to play with and every lost worm matters a lot but on the other you have only 20 seconds to execute your knocking plan so you need to be very accurate and swift. What is to be expected is that tactics are gonna change drastically.

Worth testing, I like it overally, gj!

Re: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2013, 06:41 PM »
Well I do have different question about all of this but first let me give my opinion on an interesting post which is HHC one :).
I don't agree with a lot of them  :(

In elite and t17 the rope is too powerful this way imo. It's nearly impossible to get a hide where you cant get pwned nemore  :( These are default games, you're supposed to kill mostly on foot  :(

Elite has 2 rope and T17 only one. It is very unlikely you'll be able to kill more than one worms with the rope. We could suppose that you'd at least use one rope for a movement rather than a knock. Moreover, in the end the knocking will be used 80% of the time in order to bat/dyna plop. You'll have to be more careful on your hide that's all. In the other hand some people already abuse the no knock rule in order to cheap win a game. I don't see it has a bad thing.


Roper is kinda confusing with 2 worms. I also dont like the current schemes which forces SD already after 20 mins. Roper is supposed to be played with crates :x In only super long games the SD should be used to finally cut down on HP.

This is basically as playing a clanner except you have two worms. It also add some strategy for the piling as we have in clanner.
Also adding an higher fall damage is a good idea. Fall damage should really affect you more than what it is currently doing in my opinion. The backside is that if you fall it'll be really hard to come back into the game.


Which brings me to wxw without weaps crates, which makes it SD-roping as well.
Well on this, I somehow agree with you. If we follow the logic, why changing the wxw like that and not doing the same for shopper then ?
Are we doing that in order to reduce crate luck ? If yes, why shouldn't we do the same with shopper ?
In my opinion, fun=crate, skill=no crate. I am playing for fun and I am not sure that the difference between crate and no crate in term of skills is very important. As said berria on a very easy map it'll for sure but aren't both team supposed to agree on the map ? Doesn't that mean that if you want to avoid cheap easy map player picker you can just refuse to play on their map ? Shouldn't we try to figure out a way to avoid cheap map rather than removing the crate ? Crate are meaningless now which means that you don't have any disadvantage in falling before taking the crate which remove some roping strategies. In this case, if we go for a scheme like that why not put health crate of 20 HP. Won't do much but if you fall before taking your crate +40 HP is not negligible.

And then there's 5 worms TTRR.. almost impossible not to finish now. I know this is nice for the awesome ropers, but there's no chance to beat them nemore now for not so good players, and the PLOP factor is pretty much out of the equation now.
Well, as you HHC my only chance were that my opponent fall too much during its turn. Now with 5 worms it is kinda impossible. At the end you still can say that the best won.. Even if I don't like it because it'll be very hard for me now to compete in TTRR, I must admit that I see TTRR as the roper king scheme where you can really see who has the best roping skills and this change help it so I can't disagree with it :(.


Especially wxw seems like a totally dumb shit game now. Might as well kick it out and replace it with roper, which is IMO a lot more tactical and not just silly wall to wall roping.
I see wxw as a roper/rr scheme it is not the same to rope between walls and on a fabrousse map !


So here are my questions:

1) Could you please give the changes for clanner (as the number of worms for TTRR, roper..) ?
2) If we want changes, why not adding others scheme as aerial which is played by a lot of player nowadays and has proven to be a skilled scheme ?
3) Speaking by adding scheme, there are lot of old scheme (much older than hysteria) that could be added and wouldn't do so much damages like bungerace, wascar, battlerace, fort..
4) The hysteria change 5 sec sd is good but I doubt it is enough. As I said before, since the main problem is piling and that people mainly pile by using jetpack. Shouldn't we just limit the number of jetpack in order to avoid it ?

Overall, I like these changes. Great job !

Re: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2013, 06:43 PM »
Glad to see TuS is taking a progressive approach to the scheme. 

HHC, I'm skeptical about your logic regarding 5 worm ttrr.  You say it'll help pros because they have more chances to finish with an amazing time, but won't encouraging people to rope faster and take more risks result in more plops and falls?  3 worms ttrr seems to encourage safe roping since you have less turns.  All in all, I don't think it makes a difference - the better and faster roper is going to win in a high majority of cases. 

Bottom line, for anyone who is worried about 5 worm ttrr - focus on improving roping instead of lobbying for the version of the scheme that best fits your skill level.  I'm fine with 1 worm ttrr all the way to 8 worm ttrr.  The amount of worms isn't going to change how good you are at maneuvering through a map

  <-- my brain when I clan with avi

Offline franz

Re: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2013, 07:19 PM »
BnG:
- Infinite Teleport  (Seems like everyone already does this anyway.)
- Infinite Shotgun  (Not everyone does this yet, but still seems common.)
- Activating /ts. (teststuff) It will remove full power shots.  (Best change, hope it sticks after a full test season.)
- One girder, no usage restrictions  (Girder usage has never been my biggest concern.  Maybe even do without girder completely, and consider adding unanchored with 0retreat)


Elite, Team17:
Rope knocking allowed.  (I guess it's worth testing for a season to see what it's like and go from there. I'm not sure I have a preference either way until I see results.  'No Rope Knocking' was just a legacy setting from 1999 when the separate Wormnet channels had different knocking rules, and it seems no one has seriously questioned if they were needed until now 14 years later.  Again, it's worth testing for a season at least.)


Roper:
- 2 worms per team.  (I'm guessing my post was a big influence here, so obviously I like this change for the added balance and strategy.)
- Higher fall damage.  (I've never really thought much about Higher fall damage and how it changes things, but I'm willing to see how it tests for 1 season.)

Hysteria:
- 5 second SD.  (Probably the least drastic change out of all the schemes.  I'm pretty neutral on this.  I'd still like to entertain the idea of adding 1 Worm Select for likely interesting end of game scenarios.)

TTRR:
- 5 worms per team.  (I was under the impression 3 worms was still perfectly fine for most people.  You can count me in that camp.  I wouldn't play TTRR less if #ofworms changed, but I've grown fond of the simplicity of 3 worms each: it has a nice balance of pressure to perform under the limitation of not too many worms.)

Shopper:
Awaiting new scheme...  (I know Spectre had a passionate opinion about this not too long ago, let me find his thread... Here it is.  I defer to any shopper lovers though, as it's probably my least favorite scheme.)

WxW:
We'll be trying a weapon-crate-free scheme. like this one.  (Interesting, I'm fairly neutral on this as well.  Worth testing for a season at least.)

Re: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2013, 07:32 PM »
Well, wmdb has had its shopper scheme perfected, so much that Kiros basically took the wmdb scheme and gave it a slight edit to make it the fb scheme.

Offline avirex

Re: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2013, 07:40 PM »


Elite, Team17:
Rope knocking allowed.  (I guess it's worth testing for a season to see what it's like and go from there. I'm not sure I have a preference either way until I see results. 'No Rope Knocking' was just a legacy setting from 1999 when the separate Wormnet channels had different knocking rules, and it seems no one has seriously questioned if they were needed until now 14 years later.  Again, it's worth testing for a season at least.)



speaking of that....  "zook first" was adopted from worms2 rope scheme, but there was a reason for it.... it was because there was random placement, there was no tele placement on worms2...

so parachute was disabled (so you could not knock if your worm was placed on top) and zook was in first turn, so there was less chance to get fd.


whats the purpose of zook first in w:a? just gives the first player a big advantage, and adds (even more) factor of luck, due to wind...


maybe we should change roper scheme to all weaps first turn???...

Offline Desetroyah

Re: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2013, 07:49 PM »
Ano's sheme just eliminating luck in wxw , just like Desetroyah's sheme !!

Yeh, I'd be willing to work with someone on this new wxw scheme, maybe as a variation on my uploaded one.

Rest of the changes sound interesting but I'm not quite sure about the 5ttrr worms and the elite rope knocking.


Offline Free

Re: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2013, 07:52 PM »
Thumbs up. Step in right direction, even if there will be future modifications, the attitude of actually wanting to experiment is a really big step forward and makes things more interesting.

Whole new array of tactics and gameplay have just become possible. How great it that. :) Can't wait to see how elite's will start to turn out with rope knocking allowed. Ropers also :P

Offline van

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Re: Classic Season #32 goes experimental!
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2013, 07:55 PM »
Awesome idea, good job taking matters into your own hands, this will DRASTICALLY help improve the schemes. I agree with all the changes, even though I'm afraid as hell of rope knocks in elite.

Really, really nice decision, MI.