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January 24, 2022, 07:31 PM

1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT

Cup #1146, Viewed 865 Time(s)

Basic Information
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Mexico GonZaLO
Belarus KartoFan_
2.14 / 5
Total Members Voted: 7
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Name: 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT - Every weapon will make you happy!
Type: Public
Game type: 1vs1
Created: December 13, 2021, 12:25 AM

Cup scheme(s): scheme DARK M0LE PR0JECT
Click on the book to download the scheme. Click on the scheme name to view the scheme page.

Signups time: December 31, 2021, 05:30 PM

Groups Paired


Description:

Main changes from TUS scheme:

Less Powerful:

Banana Bomb Junior -270 hp
(suicide attack -250 hp, exploded above -75/-150 hp)

Cluster Bomb Junior -142 hp
(suicide attack -108 hp, exploded above -40 hp)

Green Granade Junior -56 hp

More Powerful:
Dragon Ball & Firepunch -60 hp
Mine -56 hp
Homing Missile -54 hp

New Weapons:
Freeze (deleted Mortar)
Pistol "Desert Eagle" -60 hp (deleted Uzi)

Freeze - used to protect your worms at the end of the map from Cluster Attack & Plop or to block the way upwards (for the first time in the scheme). If you find it, use it only in desperation or else your enemy might put Mine or Petrol Bomb on your frozen worm and punish you

Pistol "Desert Eagle" - an amazing tool for opening your worm from a tight block, You can just shoot a ceiling above you and almost never hurt your worm, while still tearing off big parts of the walls. Each shot can actually contain a worm inside of it. It would be a missed opportunity if it wasn't added to the scheme.

• 4 worms per team - 200 hp each • All games can be either Bo3 or Bo5 •

FAQ
1. What's the purpose of Freeze in this scheme?
- It will greatly contribute to the strategy and the fresh feeling of the scheme. We already have a trolling utility (Worm Select) that allows you to backstab the opponent before he can defend himself, and it showed on many occasions how it adds to the complexity of your decisions. I hated it back in 2014, when Mycy kept using it against me and I had to be prepared for more situations. I needed to get better at predicting the incoming use of it in order to appreciate it. Freeze is just another side of the coin and instead gives you the 2nd chance to stay alive or block the way up. You can find 2 weapons to punish Frozen worms: Mine & Petrol Bomb. If you have none of these, you'd better hide, open your other worm or get some crates.

2. Should Mine really be -56 hp instead of -47 hp?
Mine is used as a tool to:
- punish the frozen worm
- block the enemies who can't be blocked with a girder (Freeze can do that too)
It doesn't replace the role of a dynamite since the dynamite is still stronger and doesn't need to be close to the enemy worm. Unlike green granade, Mine can be placed on the top of the target to make him fly upwards.

3. Is this scheme an experiment or an actual upgrade to the TUS scheme
I made fresh but still safe changes to this scheme. Before these changes Homing Missile (-45 hp) was used less frequently than once per 10 matches(!!!). By making all the skill-based weapons finally competitive, and by introducing a new strategic element to the game - Freeze, I don't see any reason for this scheme not to become TUS' official one some day. I keep collecting feedback from my friends on what they would like to see and why.


Trivia:
While TUS scheme is by far more superior to Hosting Buddy's one, many people still had to shrug off finding weaker weapons than their opponents. As a result, many people still wanted to fix TUS scheme. Warg's scheme gave all weapons standard power (shotgun 2x25hp, granades 45hp, etc). The problem was that while it was quite fair, the game was way too slow, too forgiving, since you could always climb up from all those small explosions.

Mycy wanted to fix TUS scheme by removing Bananas and Clusters (1/2 of OP weapons). The problem was that whoever found the other 1/2 of OP weapons (Shotgun, Green Granade, Holy Granade) was bound to win, since much weaker weapons on average would be found in crates from now on, and these 3 weapons had the capacity of trapping the enemy very deep down, with no way of climbing up even with LG. In many cases these weapons would be even more deadly than Clusters, and the trapped worms would have nothing to throw to the guy above them.

FMA wanted to fix it by removing 1/2 of the weak weapons, which, in my opinion, turned the game into a blood-thristy race for crates, since they were all much more likely to be clusters, shotguns and bananas. It was very apparent in my last games with Mazinger in which I had 2x Banana, 5x cluster and I didn't need to worry about anything. Upon taking 6 crates, the game stopped requiring tactics or skills to use the weaker weapons. Mole attacks lost their significance as well. By limiting the variety of weapons, you also make the game more linear, endlessly prioritising collecting crates.

I knew that the probability to find all the weapons must stay identical to original TUS scheme. Mortar spawns are now simply just replaced with Freeze, probability of finding everything else stays the same. Firepunch/Dragon Ball are upgraded from -45hp to -60hp, still allowing you to send the enemy airborne, or down the tunnel. Mine is upgraded from -47 hp to -56 hp. -50 hp Uzi transformed into -60 hp Pistol allowing you to open any wall around you, while still finishing off your enemy. Because Homing Missile was only -45 dmg, it was used on average in 1 out of 10 matches. Now it's -54 hp, finally being close to Aqua Sheep. All weapons can now co-exist, being all a valid threat.


Cup Medals:

Groups

Group 1
Country Player Groups Total Won Lost #1 #2
Mexico GonZaLO MOLE 4 4/11 0
Russian Federation Magnificent Kf 2 1/3 1
Poland MycyxPatroN MdT 2 0 2
Poland KinslayeR dP alCo 1 0 1
Saudi Arabia Mega`Adnan ob ae ZaR 1 0 1
Games [5]

ID Winner Loser Replay Time Game Rate
230452 Russian Federation Magnificent Poland MycyxPatroN
3:0
January 11, 2022, 12:47 AM 0
230446 Mexico GonZaLO Poland KinslayeR
3:0
January 10, 2022, 08:40 PM 3
230419 Mexico GonZaLO Saudi Arabia Mega`Adnan
2:0
January 08, 2022, 05:57 PM 0
230392 Mexico GonZaLO Russian Federation Magnificent
3:0
January 08, 2022, 12:20 AM 1
230292 Mexico GonZaLO Poland MycyxPatroN
3:0
January 02, 2022, 05:58 PM 1
Group 2
Country Player Groups Total Won Lost #1 #2
Mexico danie MOLE 4 2/7 2
Spain MazingerZ MdT 3 2/6 1
Belarus KartoFan_ MdT 2 1/2 1
Hungary Lupastic BoM 2 1/2 1
Brazil Nous BoM MOLE 1 0 1
Games [6]

ID Winner Loser Replay Time Game Rate
230454 Spain MazingerZ Mexico danie
3:2
January 11, 2022, 06:56 PM 0
230421 Spain MazingerZ Hungary Lupastic
2:0
January 08, 2022, 06:11 PM 1
0/5
230415 Belarus KartoFan_ Spain MazingerZ
2:1
January 08, 2022, 05:18 PM 0
230353 Mexico danie Brazil Nous
3:0
January 06, 2022, 04:25 AM 0
230320 Mexico danie Belarus KartoFan_
2:0
January 04, 2022, 07:54 PM 0
230313 Hungary Lupastic Mexico danie
2:0
January 03, 2022, 10:58 PM 1

Author Topic: Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT  (Read 929 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Magnus

Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT
« on: December 13, 2021, 12:29 PM »
Is this supposed to be a different mole scheme, which will be played every now and then, or has the intention of improving the TUS mole scheme to be the preferred played scheme?

Online Lupastic

Re: Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2021, 12:31 PM »
Fixing the SD waterrise would be a cool idea as well.. level 1 (1-2 pixel rise) is way too slow, level 2 (15-20 pixels) is way too fast. This would also make this scheme more enjoyable.
Also, limiting the girders ;) 7 girders, like in Deadcode's team17 scheme. Just giving a few tips, how more players would be interested to play this :D

Offline GonZaLO

Re: Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2021, 12:54 PM »
Is this supposed to be a different mole scheme, which will be played every now and then, or has the intention of improving the TUS mole scheme to be the preferred played scheme?

I don't have the capacity to decide which scheme is official on TUS website. Can it be decided anyhow? Not sure who is in charge of the official TUS schemes in the first place. While Firepunch, Homing Missile, Dragon Ball, Mine, Handgun would be a vast improvement, I still need to consult a few people about Bazooka's power.

Fixing the SD waterrise would be a cool idea as well.. level 1 (1-2 pixel rise) is way too slow, level 2 (15-20 pixels) is way too fast. This would also make this scheme more enjoyable.
Also, limiting the girders ;) 7 girders, like in Deadcode's team17 scheme. Just giving a few tips, how more players would be interested to play this :D

Games are already enjoyable enough (and thanks to the slow flood they can last 60-80 min during the best mind games). The thing that can be improved is making all weapons similarly threatening. 7 girders is not needed since you should have an unlimited capacity to climb or defend yourself against strong attacks (which still being bombarded from above with mole). You can't block anybody who isn't close to you anyway. These changes will be appreciated by those who play mole for years, and chose this scheme for its tacticality rather than entertainement.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2021, 01:02 PM by GonZaLO »

Offline FoxHound

Re: Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2021, 02:50 PM »
I liked that you wrote the whole context and history of Mole Shopper evolution. This information could also be on WKB's Mole Shopper article. Very interesting points and changes. I like schemes with no standard weapon powers. I simply don't understand who criticizes powers different than 3 stars when the powers can make a scheme more well balanced.

By the way if I'm not mistaken you are also the creator of Mole Forts, an interesting variant and fusion of schemes. Good job on that as well, I need to try it one day. It has a lot of maps and still did not receive a proper category in WMDB or on TUS maps section.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2021, 02:53 PM by FoxHound »
Do you want to know different and creative schemes around Worms community? Check Scheme ideas.

I used to play WWP before playing WA online. See my WKB profile.


My nickname has to do with a Metal Gear Solid 3 rank. It's also a Special Force Group.

gif made by sbs:

Offline Magnus

Re: Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2021, 03:07 PM »
Quote
1. Every "weak" weapon that you find, will now serve you much greater. This time you can defend yourself better against Clusters, Shotgun & Banana.
Like Nous told me, my scheme already does that.

Quote
3. Still debatable additions:
- 1x Freeze in the inventory
Not debatable at all for me as this is a terrible setting for the scheme. With a freeze in the inventory, you totally remove the known tactic of invading your opponent’s cave when your opponent’s next worm to play is far away from their cave unable to defend the upcoming attack. If a player fails to protect their cave, it’s their problem. This weapon is featured in my SWs mole variant and it may protect your worms if used at the right moment (unless your opponent has petrol, but at least they can’t be banana-killed). If you’re still in doubt about this, just look at how Nous managed to ambush Magnificent in their last round in danie’s world cup; that’s at least the only example and also which is available publicly for download that I have off the top of my head at the moment.

Quote
Current powers of weapons (might change)
Mine -96 hp
Uzi -85/-95 hp
Homing Missile -70 hp
Bazooka -70 hp
Dragon Ball -60 hp
Firepunch -60 hp
(new!) Handgun -60 hp
Mine -96hp, Uzi -85/95hp, are you nuts? But ok, well, let’s go by parts:
Increasing the mine and homing power is something that should never be done in mole since those are THE ONLY TWO WEAPONS that allows you to make a small crater to let a worm down in case there’s a tunnel beside it as not to open them to the top with a stronger explosive. Even if you have a dynamite, at these moments, you’ll still prefer to use a mine or homing (if possible) instead. It would also mess the balance of the weapons if you overpowered mine as it’d become just another dynamite/holy/pigeon/cow for the player who is already in advantage on the top. It’d become even easier for the player in advantage to plop a worm once the team underground opens the top. In addition, it’d make the mine opening trick a lot more OP.
Adding Uzi in the scheme is senseless (even overpowered) since it’s essencially the same weapon as the Minigun. So if a player finds Uzi and the other one a Minigun, the one who found Uzi would be pissed on bad luck instead of having found a weapon for a different purpose.
Adding Handgun just adds yet another type of weapon that only does damage and doesn’t let the worm down (or offer any other reasonable tactical value). So you already have Uzi, Dragon Ball, Handgun, Minigun and all others we already have such as Flamethrower, Axe etc. I think it makes the scheme has too many of these weapons, leaving too little room for the tactical-type weapons.
Besides, I had also already tried overpowering these weapons in the past to see how they’d behave and even then didn’t find worth it. It’s also worth noticing that I didn’t create my mole scheme to be a different game as the changes are too subtle and therefore the gameplay and strategy are still the same, I mean, it is supposed to be just a refined TUS version and not a totally new scheme with different values just so people wouldn’t complain calling it custom mole or anything. This is why I decided to simply remove those useless weapons instead of changing their power levels as, again, people would complain the values aren’t the traditional ones.
As for Bazooka, why do you want to make it stronger? It’s the only weapon with such intermediate power level in the scheme.
Dragon Ball could have its power increased sure, but again, never did this so that people won’t complain it’s custom mole with different values.
Fire Punch already has very good tactical values (plopping worms on the top and freeing yourself from a complicated block), so its value doesn’t have to be on the damage side. Not to mention, the worm would fly farther too.

Quote
Trivia:
While TUS scheme is by far more superior to Hosting Buddy's one, many people still had to shrug off finding weaker weapons than their opponents. As a result, many people still wanted to fix TUS scheme.
I never saw danie, Nous or anyone else complaining about this in my scheme. Although there can be always games you never find good weapons no matter the scheme.

Quote
FMA wanted to fix it by removing 1/2 of the weak weapons, which basically turned the game into a blood-thristy race for crates, since they were all much more likely to be clusters, shotguns and bananas. It was very apparent in my last games with Mazinger in which I had 2x Banana, 5x cluster and I didn't need to worry about anything. Upon taking 6 crates, the game stopped requiring tactics or skills to use the weapons well. Mole attacks lost their significance as well.
lol @ blood-thirsty race for crates; that’s not true at all since math probability doesn’t apply to Worms. How many times have I picked so many crates and no clusters, and how many times I picked 1, 3 max and already found them? You still play as strategically as you do in TUS scheme. If you risk and something goes wrong, the result ends up being the same; there’s no going back after.
Also, you can’t judge any mole scheme just because you had a few games in which you were lucky with crates. This happens in every single mole scheme, not just mine. How many times I only picked top level weapons in the TUS scheme too? You gotta notice that the chances for finding the weapons are equally among them. Just like you found 2 bananas and 6 clusters, you might have found 2 mines and 2 sheep. Sure, you it does become a little bit easier to find the good weapons in my scheme (but obviously not necessarily bananas, clusters and shotguns like you said) since there are 3 crate weapons less in the scheme, but this is for a good reason, so it’s more likely that BOTH players will find good weapons instead of only one of them being the lucky guy in finding clusters and the other player struggling getting shit like dragon ball, uzi and mortar instead of being able to pick at least a bazooka, mine, sheep or whatever, which wouldn’t compensate as much as finding a top level weapon, but it’d still be a lot better than finding those useless ones. And again, because of the lack of those 3 weapons, you might find clusters sooner once your opponent finds them. It seems you have a big fear of your opponent findings clusters when that shouldn’t be the matter. You should understand that a player finding clusters in a mole game is something that can happen from the very first turn just as when they find banana in first turn and kills a worm in the first encounter. It’s a natural scenario you must assume it may happen. And even if it happens, it’s not game over yet. What should matter is that you can also find good weapons to have a balanced game with your opponent’s strong weapons. Both players should be allowed to find good weapons.

Quote
I knew that the probability to find all the useful weapons must stay identical to original TUS scheme. Mortar spawns are now simply just replaced with kickass Handgun(-60 dmg), probability of finding everything else stays the same. Since mine can't be freely placed (like Holy Granade), I made it slightly stronger than Holy (-96 hp). Firepunch/Dragon Ball are upgraded from -45hp to -60hp, still allowing you to send the enemy airborne, or down the tunnel. Uzi/Handgun will allow you to destroy any wall next to you, while still finishing off a weak worm. In my opinion all weapons can now co-exist being all a valid threat
You could still leave the mortar in the scheme as long as it’s the same power as it is in HB scheme. The power Ramone set for it is senseless. The weapon is already hard to use because of the required geography. I still chose to leave it out for these 2 reasons: 1) so people won’t complain it’s custom mole by changing the values and 2) because of rare opportunities to use it properly, so you’d still be better off finding a mine or something in most cases. But I’d actually prefer it in the scheme a lot more than a thousand different minigun sizes as it has its only unique functionality.


Is this supposed to be a different mole scheme, which will be played every now and then, or has the intention of improving the TUS mole scheme to be the preferred played scheme?

I don't have the capacity to decide which scheme is official on TUS website. Can it be decided anyhow? Not sure who is in charge of the official TUS schemes in the first place. While Firepunch, Homing Missile, Dragon Ball, Mine, Handgun would be a vast improvement, I still need to consult a few people about Bazooka's power.
Hehehe, good joke. :) Well, I already told you that Fire Punch, Homing and Mine would be a disaster instead of any kind of improvement. As for Bazooka, again, I don’t see what the problem with that weapon even is. lol

Offline FoxHound

Re: Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2021, 03:26 PM »
Wow, very good points on Magnus' reply as well.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2021, 03:31 PM by FoxHound »
Do you want to know different and creative schemes around Worms community? Check Scheme ideas.

I used to play WWP before playing WA online. See my WKB profile.


My nickname has to do with a Metal Gear Solid 3 rank. It's also a Special Force Group.

gif made by sbs:

Offline GonZaLO

Re: Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2021, 04:35 PM »
...
« Last Edit: December 13, 2021, 09:57 PM by GonZaLO »

Offline danie

Re: Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2021, 07:02 PM »
...
« Last Edit: December 13, 2021, 09:54 PM by danie »

Offline Pinkman

Re: Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2021, 03:40 PM »
Dear Admins, please restore the last 2 postings, cause i only see points! Pinkman wants to read that!
No Quai no Mole.

Offline Nous

Re: Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2021, 06:35 PM »
Join the mole cups, Pinkman. Don't be afraid to be part of legion.

We will wait until the day when we can take out 3x clusters to 1x per crate and will be solved much of the problem with 'clusteration'.

If the cup is worth $200, as the rumors say, I'm in, anyway. :D
« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 06:28 PM by Nous »

Offline GonZaLO

Re: Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2021, 01:54 PM »
After long consultations with Kaptowka, NouS, Danie and Pinkman I think the scheme is perfectly balanced as for today.

Open the 2 replays in the attachment below (they are also on the scheme's website). You can see every single weapon being put to the test. Just as Kaptowka told to me, clusters and green granade are now equally good weapons.

From these two, I would prefer to find green granades. They deal only -56 dmg but since there are 3x of them, they can repeatedly push enemies down and do medium plops on the roof. If somebody exposes the bottom of a worm, the clusters will cost this player -1 worm but generally speaking Clusters are no threat.

Offline GonZaLO

Re: Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2021, 05:24 PM »
SIGN UPS ARE OPEN  :-* :-*

Here below is a short video of Cluster Bomb Junior in action. Please watch it.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2022, 03:58 PM by GonZaLO »

Online Lupastic

Re: Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2021, 06:07 PM »
I have just tested this scheme a bit with Adnan, and.. the longbow still does 2x50 damage. Is this on purpose? :D 100 HP feels way beyond OP damage, considering you nerfed the other weapons too

Offline GonZaLO

Re: Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2021, 11:44 PM »
I have just tested this scheme a bit with Adnan, and.. the longbow still does 2x50 damage. Is this on purpose? :D 100 HP feels way beyond OP damage, considering you nerfed the other weapons too

It's still very average. Shotgun is = 160 hp, Firethrower = 150 hp, Air strike = 80 hp, Baseball bat = 98/108 hp, Minigun = 100 hp, Cluster 142 hp. Cows 3x 65 hp

Even Team17's official TUS scheme still has power 2x 50 hp in bow. Could you help me understand what weapons are nerfed under bow's power? Granade is only 56 hp because you it can almost always plop somebody from the rooftop or toss the enemy down while destroying the ladder, something that Bow will never do, not to mention that green granades always come with a package of 3 of them.

I heard an opinion "leave green granades at 3x -79 hp, the way they are now"

In my concept of a balance I understand a situation in which I am just as much happy to find:
a) Dynamite (-72)
B) Green Granade (3x 56)
C) Cluster (3x 142 but only if you are under enemy in a steep tunnel or placed under his girder)

And that is exactly how I feel about the current weapons. Dynamite was always pathetic with it's -72 hp compared to 3x 79hp green nukes that could catapult anyone across the map to the space.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 02:38 PM by GonZaLO »

Offline GonZaLO

Re: Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2022, 12:45 AM »
Magnificent told me about a visual modification (Project X) to make Mole actually dark, atmospheric with a few sources of light and nice smooth lighting effects. I will test it to see if it could be ready for February.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 08:51 AM by GonZaLO »