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Cup #1146, 1vs1 DARK M0LE PR0JECT

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Magnus:
Is this supposed to be a different mole scheme, which will be played every now and then, or has the intention of improving the TUS mole scheme to be the preferred played scheme?

Lupastic:
Fixing the SD waterrise would be a cool idea as well.. level 1 (1-2 pixel rise) is way too slow, level 2 (15-20 pixels) is way too fast. This would also make this scheme more enjoyable.
Also, limiting the girders ;) 7 girders, like in Deadcode's team17 scheme. Just giving a few tips, how more players would be interested to play this :D

Zalo the moler:

--- Quote from: Magnus on December 13, 2021, 12:29 PM ---Is this supposed to be a different mole scheme, which will be played every now and then, or has the intention of improving the TUS mole scheme to be the preferred played scheme?

--- End quote ---

I don't have the capacity to decide which scheme is official on TUS website. Can it be decided anyhow? Not sure who is in charge of the official TUS schemes in the first place. While Firepunch, Homing Missile, Dragon Ball, Mine, Handgun would be a vast improvement, I still need to consult a few people about Bazooka's power.


--- Quote from: Lupastic on December 13, 2021, 12:31 PM ---Fixing the SD waterrise would be a cool idea as well.. level 1 (1-2 pixel rise) is way too slow, level 2 (15-20 pixels) is way too fast. This would also make this scheme more enjoyable.
Also, limiting the girders ;) 7 girders, like in Deadcode's team17 scheme. Just giving a few tips, how more players would be interested to play this :D

--- End quote ---

Games are already enjoyable enough (and thanks to the slow flood they can last 60-80 min during the best mind games). The thing that can be improved is making all weapons similarly threatening. 7 girders is not needed since you should have an unlimited capacity to climb or defend yourself against strong attacks (which still being bombarded from above with mole). You can't block anybody who isn't close to you anyway. These changes will be appreciated by those who play mole for years, and chose this scheme for its tacticality rather than entertainement.

FoxHound:
I liked that you wrote the whole context and history of Mole Shopper evolution. This information could also be on WKB's Mole Shopper article. Very interesting points and changes. I like schemes with no standard weapon powers. I simply don't understand who criticizes powers different than 3 stars when the powers can make a scheme more well balanced.

By the way if I'm not mistaken you are also the creator of Mole Forts, an interesting variant and fusion of schemes. Good job on that as well, I need to try it one day. It has a lot of maps and still did not receive a proper category in WMDB or on TUS maps section.

Magnus:

--- Quote ---1. Every "weak" weapon that you find, will now serve you much greater. This time you can defend yourself better against Clusters, Shotgun & Banana.
--- End quote ---
Like Nous told me, my scheme already does that.


--- Quote ---3. Still debatable additions:
- 1x Freeze in the inventory
--- End quote ---
Not debatable at all for me as this is a terrible setting for the scheme. With a freeze in the inventory, you totally remove the known tactic of invading your opponent’s cave when your opponent’s next worm to play is far away from their cave unable to defend the upcoming attack. If a player fails to protect their cave, it’s their problem. This weapon is featured in my SWs mole variant and it may protect your worms if used at the right moment (unless your opponent has petrol, but at least they can’t be banana-killed). If you’re still in doubt about this, just look at how Nous managed to ambush Magnificent in their last round in danie’s world cup; that’s at least the only example and also which is available publicly for download that I have off the top of my head at the moment.


--- Quote ---Current powers of weapons (might change)
Mine -96 hp
Uzi -85/-95 hp
Homing Missile -70 hp
Bazooka -70 hp
Dragon Ball -60 hp
Firepunch -60 hp
(new!) Handgun -60 hp
--- End quote ---
Mine -96hp, Uzi -85/95hp, are you nuts? But ok, well, let’s go by parts:
Increasing the mine and homing power is something that should never be done in mole since those are THE ONLY TWO WEAPONS that allows you to make a small crater to let a worm down in case there’s a tunnel beside it as not to open them to the top with a stronger explosive. Even if you have a dynamite, at these moments, you’ll still prefer to use a mine or homing (if possible) instead. It would also mess the balance of the weapons if you overpowered mine as it’d become just another dynamite/holy/pigeon/cow for the player who is already in advantage on the top. It’d become even easier for the player in advantage to plop a worm once the team underground opens the top. In addition, it’d make the mine opening trick a lot more OP.
Adding Uzi in the scheme is senseless (even overpowered) since it’s essencially the same weapon as the Minigun. So if a player finds Uzi and the other one a Minigun, the one who found Uzi would be pissed on bad luck instead of having found a weapon for a different purpose.
Adding Handgun just adds yet another type of weapon that only does damage and doesn’t let the worm down (or offer any other reasonable tactical value). So you already have Uzi, Dragon Ball, Handgun, Minigun and all others we already have such as Flamethrower, Axe etc. I think it makes the scheme has too many of these weapons, leaving too little room for the tactical-type weapons.
Besides, I had also already tried overpowering these weapons in the past to see how they’d behave and even then didn’t find worth it. It’s also worth noticing that I didn’t create my mole scheme to be a different game as the changes are too subtle and therefore the gameplay and strategy are still the same, I mean, it is supposed to be just a refined TUS version and not a totally new scheme with different values just so people wouldn’t complain calling it custom mole or anything. This is why I decided to simply remove those useless weapons instead of changing their power levels as, again, people would complain the values aren’t the traditional ones.
As for Bazooka, why do you want to make it stronger? It’s the only weapon with such intermediate power level in the scheme.
Dragon Ball could have its power increased sure, but again, never did this so that people won’t complain it’s custom mole with different values.
Fire Punch already has very good tactical values (plopping worms on the top and freeing yourself from a complicated block), so its value doesn’t have to be on the damage side. Not to mention, the worm would fly farther too.


--- Quote ---Trivia:
While TUS scheme is by far more superior to Hosting Buddy's one, many people still had to shrug off finding weaker weapons than their opponents. As a result, many people still wanted to fix TUS scheme.
--- End quote ---
I never saw danie, Nous or anyone else complaining about this in my scheme. Although there can be always games you never find good weapons no matter the scheme.


--- Quote ---FMA wanted to fix it by removing 1/2 of the weak weapons, which basically turned the game into a blood-thristy race for crates, since they were all much more likely to be clusters, shotguns and bananas. It was very apparent in my last games with Mazinger in which I had 2x Banana, 5x cluster and I didn't need to worry about anything. Upon taking 6 crates, the game stopped requiring tactics or skills to use the weapons well. Mole attacks lost their significance as well.
--- End quote ---
lol @ blood-thirsty race for crates; that’s not true at all since math probability doesn’t apply to Worms. How many times have I picked so many crates and no clusters, and how many times I picked 1, 3 max and already found them? You still play as strategically as you do in TUS scheme. If you risk and something goes wrong, the result ends up being the same; there’s no going back after.
Also, you can’t judge any mole scheme just because you had a few games in which you were lucky with crates. This happens in every single mole scheme, not just mine. How many times I only picked top level weapons in the TUS scheme too? You gotta notice that the chances for finding the weapons are equally among them. Just like you found 2 bananas and 6 clusters, you might have found 2 mines and 2 sheep. Sure, you it does become a little bit easier to find the good weapons in my scheme (but obviously not necessarily bananas, clusters and shotguns like you said) since there are 3 crate weapons less in the scheme, but this is for a good reason, so it’s more likely that BOTH players will find good weapons instead of only one of them being the lucky guy in finding clusters and the other player struggling getting shit like dragon ball, uzi and mortar instead of being able to pick at least a bazooka, mine, sheep or whatever, which wouldn’t compensate as much as finding a top level weapon, but it’d still be a lot better than finding those useless ones. And again, because of the lack of those 3 weapons, you might find clusters sooner once your opponent finds them. It seems you have a big fear of your opponent findings clusters when that shouldn’t be the matter. You should understand that a player finding clusters in a mole game is something that can happen from the very first turn just as when they find banana in first turn and kills a worm in the first encounter. It’s a natural scenario you must assume it may happen. And even if it happens, it’s not game over yet. What should matter is that you can also find good weapons to have a balanced game with your opponent’s strong weapons. Both players should be allowed to find good weapons.


--- Quote ---I knew that the probability to find all the useful weapons must stay identical to original TUS scheme. Mortar spawns are now simply just replaced with kickass Handgun(-60 dmg), probability of finding everything else stays the same. Since mine can't be freely placed (like Holy Granade), I made it slightly stronger than Holy (-96 hp). Firepunch/Dragon Ball are upgraded from -45hp to -60hp, still allowing you to send the enemy airborne, or down the tunnel. Uzi/Handgun will allow you to destroy any wall next to you, while still finishing off a weak worm. In my opinion all weapons can now co-exist being all a valid threat
--- End quote ---
You could still leave the mortar in the scheme as long as it’s the same power as it is in HB scheme. The power Ramone set for it is senseless. The weapon is already hard to use because of the required geography. I still chose to leave it out for these 2 reasons: 1) so people won’t complain it’s custom mole by changing the values and 2) because of rare opportunities to use it properly, so you’d still be better off finding a mine or something in most cases. But I’d actually prefer it in the scheme a lot more than a thousand different minigun sizes as it has its only unique functionality.



--- Quote from: GonZaLO on December 13, 2021, 12:54 PM ---
--- Quote from: Magnus on December 13, 2021, 12:29 PM ---Is this supposed to be a different mole scheme, which will be played every now and then, or has the intention of improving the TUS mole scheme to be the preferred played scheme?

--- End quote ---

I don't have the capacity to decide which scheme is official on TUS website. Can it be decided anyhow? Not sure who is in charge of the official TUS schemes in the first place. While Firepunch, Homing Missile, Dragon Ball, Mine, Handgun would be a vast improvement, I still need to consult a few people about Bazooka's power.
--- End quote ---
Hehehe, good joke. :) Well, I already told you that Fire Punch, Homing and Mine would be a disaster instead of any kind of improvement. As for Bazooka, again, I don’t see what the problem with that weapon even is. lol

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