The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
One-Boards => Challenges Comments => Topic started by: Triad on April 21, 2024, 10:14 AM
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For the 42th NdSC, I decided to pick this legendary map. :D It's more difficult than your average Darts map, so I wonder how many people will submit a run.
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lol, hard
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@Shtaket, very nice run, but the shot at 3:30 would be considered a swing/an arch rather than a swoosh due to rope angle, so unfortunately, your final score is 84 rather than 99.
This is the rope angle of that shot, one frame before you activate drill:
[attachment=1]
Sorry about the technicalities! I asked Komito to confirm whether my assesment is right or wrong.
You achieved such a high score with a plopped worm, so I believe you can get an even better score in no time.
Cheers.
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If that picture is where he activates drill then it's not a swoosh it's an arch.
If he's going ------------------>
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Unfortunately that's not how the ninja rope works, there's quirk with the rope making it so it should be released 1 frame earlier than what the rendered frame is showing.
The last rope angle rendered before releasing the rope is never the same as the angle at which the next rope will be shot, unless the rope is perfectly still when released. This is because the rope internally undergoes a frame worth of motion before being released.
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Unfortunately that's not how the ninja rope works, there's quirk with the rope making it so it should be released 1 frame earlier than what the rendered frame is showing.
Yeah but at best it would be totally vertical, and still not a swoosh.
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totally vertical, and still not a swoosh.
Um actually, when going to the right a swoosh is possible at 90° . ☝️🤓
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Um actually, when going to the right a swoosh is possible at 90° . ☝️🤓
To be honest, I've never seen it actually written anywhere. My definition of a swoosh though, is when the rope is past the perfect vertical point moving downwards, basically, the image that Triad showed but the worm would be on the other side at the same point.
That's how I've known it for over 20 years personally.
For the Challenge, it's up to the moderator, so up to Triad really.
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The best solution, if possible, is for someone to continue from that frame with TA.
On TA, instead of using a drill on the next frame, they should release the rope; if the next rope shot goes to the right, it should count as a swoosh, and if it goes to the left, it should count as an arch.
Edit: Komito just sent me the TA result. The rope indeed shoots to right, so I'll count it as a swoosh. Shtaket's score is fixed now.
(https://i.imgur.com/kslQ5G3.png)
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:o
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To be honest, I've never seen it actually written anywhere. My definition of a swoosh though, is when the rope is past the perfect vertical point moving downwards, basically, the image that Triad showed but the worm would be on the other side at the same point.
That's how I've known it for over 20 years personally.
For the Challenge, it's up to the moderator, so up to Triad really.
The looks-like-a-swoosh-quacks-like-a-swoosh-but-isn't-actually-a-swoosh could be a its own trick if someone wills it enough, I won't argue about that. I'll say this, you were wrong to advice with certainty based only on an assumption.
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I'll say this, you were wrong to advice with certainty based only on an assumption.
I wasn't wrong because there is no "official" way of doing any move on the rope, its basically what people agree on.
I still don't consider that being a legit swoosh in my eyes, but "technically" its a swoosh using another method of measurement that uses the way the rope shoots only instead of both the way the rope shoots and where you shoot it from.
This is like half the requirements of a genuinely real swoosh.
For a swoosh to be a proper swoosh the rope has to be already diagonal the way you're moving on the side you're throwing it.
That's how I measure it and always will measure it.
Triad allows it. But I wouldn't.
Edit. It's also another funny one...
What's the difference between an arch and a mexi? They are both the same move really, but how you measure them is different lol.
Also, some moves even have different names now than they did 25 years ago when I started roping so i go with the old names and ways of measuring...
TA wasn't even possible back then, a swoosh is not a vertical drop lol, f that, that's a limp swoosh.
It's like...
There is a power variant of most moves as well.
Power spike. Power pump. Power outlaw. Power kick. Power swoosh...
Which is when you do it holding the direction AND up for maximum speed without letting go of either button.
So this is like the complete opposite... The limp swoosh, with no power at all, the absolute bare minimum 🤣🤣🤣
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there is no "official" way of doing any move on the rope, its basically what people agree on.
Yes, that's true. I had a similar problem at the Trick Race chally I hosted two months ago.
Quotes from that chally:
I need the opinion of fellow tricksters.
In flashR's 513.98s run (http://ttps://www.tus-wa.com/challenges/download/replay-9903-1/), while he was doing outlaws to swoosh (around 125-sec mark), does his last movement before swoosh count as an outlaw, or is it an inlaw since it was done on a horizontal surface?
Walrus replied to my message:
i believe the rope direction dictates whether it is inlaw or outlaw.
So I went with rope directions personally since then. But it is true that there are no official descriptions for many tricks. Maybe creating a rope tricks section on WKB with the help of the freestyle/trick community might solve this ambiguity for some tricks (and more importantly, it would be a great resource for newbies).
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there is no "official" way of doing any move on the rope, its basically what people agree on.
I agree, but that isn't what I'm disputing.
Yeah but at best it would be totally vertical, and still not a swoosh.
My definition of a swoosh though, is when the rope is past the perfect vertical point moving downwards
I found the rope attachment position and the worm position at the frame of rope release by looking at the game's memory values.
Rope attachment position: 3100.1880340576171875 pixels
Worm position: 3103.64398193359375 pixels
As you can see the the worm is more than 3 pixels further to the right than the rope attachment position.
What this means is that the rope can't be perfectly vertical, in fact it's angled slightly to the right. You should be able to see this for yourself using TA by not releasing the rope.
Even by your own definition it was a swoosh, and you were wrong to assume that the rope would not go past perfectly vertical.
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@Triad & Shtaket - Decided to play for 20 minutes just to tie. :P
This map is actually A LOT easier than I remember, it's really nice! Could definitely get a PG here I've had 3 and 4 bulls in a row a few times and not even fully in the zone yet.
Even by your own definition it was a swoosh, and you were wrong to assume that the rope would not go past perfectly vertical.
No, you're wrong.
By my definition, the last frame you see the actual rope is what counts. In the TA that I showed, the last frame of the rope was the same as in Triads picture, I released it on the next frame so there was no rope after that so it wasn't facing the right at all it was diagonally left.
It just so happened that there's a, let's call it "crossover point" where it sort of skips from the left side to the right between frames.
It definitely WAS NOT travelling on the right side of the extension though when actually pressing the button. Yes, the rope was shooting right, but the flagpole itself was still on the left side making it, actually an entirely different move in my opinion.
This is not an arch or mexi nor is it a swoosh, it's something else inbetween, something you can only achieve during ONE perfect frame. Since Shtaket sort of found this, he can name it lol.
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By my definition, the last frame you see the actual rope is what counts.
That's not how the game works, you are wrong.
The last rope angle rendered before releasing the rope is never the same as the angle at which the next rope will be shot, unless the rope is perfectly still when released. This is because the rope internally undergoes a frame worth of motion before being released.
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That's not how the game works, you are wrong.
What do you mean that's not how the game works you just literally quoted Deadcode saying that's HOW the game works!
I am not debating how it works with the rope never being the same angle at which the next rope will be shot. I'm saying what I've always regarded as a swoosh and it's not what Shtaket did here. The frame that Triad showed, if you release the drill ON THAT FRAME, it is not a swoosh because the last frame of the rope that you saw is actually extending outwards from the middle to the left. If it was a swoosh it would be extending from the middle to the right AS you press the spacebar/enter button.
It is not just the angle the rope shoots that dictates what a swoosh is, it's also the position of the rope as you shoot. It is not a proper swoosh, period.
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Here is a video of the swoosh at the slowest playback speed. You can see this for yourself by pressing Shift + 0 + 9
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Here is a video of the swoosh at the slowest playback speed. You can see this for yourself by pressing Shift + 0 + 9
Wow, didn't know "Shift + 0 + 9" could render the hidden frames like that.
@Triad & Shtaket - Decided to play for 20 minutes just to tie. :P
Haha, it would be fun if we end this with three gold medalists, it is something that has never happened in a Darts challenge before.
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Ok, for starters, showing hidden frames doesn't count, you don't see that with normal speed frame by frame, that's like sub frame or something??
But the picture that Triad showed, and the game I was asked to check, if you released the drill on THAT frame, it would NOT be a swoosh:
These are the 2 pictures frame by frame in order:
Frame 1:
(https://i.imgur.com/k3HGnPP.png)
Frame 2:
(https://i.imgur.com/0P5NIhy.png)
There is NO in between! It is NOT a swoosh!
The rope is on the LEFT side as the drill is fired, it's NOT a swoosh!
If you fired a rope instead of a drill, the rope DOES shoot out to the right, but it's still not a genuine swoosh because the rope was extending outwards the wrong direction.
As I said before, it's something PERFECTLY in the middle of an arch/mexi and a swoosh.
It is released at the last point of being an arch/mexi, but connects like a swoosh, so it's like a mexican swoosh.
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So I went with rope directions personally since then. But it is true that there are no official descriptions for many tricks. Maybe creating a rope tricks section on WKB with the help of the freestyle/trick community might solve this ambiguity for some tricks (and more importantly, it would be a great resource for newbies).
I'm looking for a roper (player) to help me on this task for years. Nobody ever accepted the idea. It is a lot of work and complicated, sure. But, if I had more knowledge about the tricks I would do this myself long time ago. Even with my limited knowledge I always think about starting the idea and see how people react to fix the article if needed. At least the very basic tricks. If a roper be available and want to work on this project, let me know. I can do the stuff myself, I just need someone to correct me and some orientation on how it should be done better.
Honestly I wonder if in all those 13000 posts Komodo has, he ever admitted he is wrong. I mean, sometimes saying you are wrong or accepting what people say is more important than winning the discussion, or to be always right. I know that it is a grey area situation, but sometimes I think the discussions are endless and the strategy is to never admit things to make them longer, to post more until the other person that has less free time to occupy its had with these discussions give up reading dozens of walls to argument in vain.
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How about this?
[attachment=1]
Since the target board at Swoosh It! is way lower than farer in relation with the rope bend point, I always thought you should start drilling when your worm is at less than 45° angle to hit it.
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i always thought mexi was over a chunk of terrain, and arch was over a pole or something ???
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If that picture is where he activates drill then it's not a swoosh it's an arch.
If he's going ------------------>
You either wrote this with the assumption that Triad's views on what constitutes a swoosh is the same as yours, which is an incorrect assumption otherwise the score would not have been changed back to 99. Or you didn't know when writing this that the rope undergoes 1 frame of motion internally before being released and you wrote something wrong based on a lack of knowledge of how the game works.
Unfortunately that's not how the ninja rope works, there's quirk with the rope making it so it should be released 1 frame earlier than what the rendered frame is showing.
Yeah but at best it would be totally vertical, and still not a swoosh.
You were wrong about the angle, it is in fact at an angle that is sloping slightly to the right.
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You either wrote this with the assumption that Triad's views on what constitutes a swoosh is the same as yours, which is an incorrect assumption otherwise the score would not have been changed back to 99. Or you didn't know when writing this that the rope undergoes 1 frame of motion internally before being released and you wrote something wrong based on a lack of knowledge of how the game works.
It is not an incorrect assumption.
That picture, it's not a swoosh it's an arch!
Triad changed it to a swoosh because when I used TA if I released rope ON THAT FRAME it shot right even though the rope was facing left.
I said if the only requirement to be a swoosh is to fire rope right then sure its a swoosh. So I assume he changed it.
If the score has been changed back then its because after further conversation about what is and isn't an actual swoosh we've came to the conclusion that it is indeed NOT a swoosh.
Conversation over.
You were wrong about the angle, it is in fact at an angle that is sloping slightly to the right.
I am not wrong about the angle you can see in the picture that the rope is going left from the middle
It also is possible for the rope to be perfectly vertical, albeit you can't be moving from side to side only up and down.
Though yes, I'll admit I temporary forgot about the pre-frame thing. Which is irrelevant anyway since it's still not a swoosh either way because the last frame you see the rope it's on the left not the right.
The point wasn't so much that the rope WOULD be totally vertical, but that it's not a swoosh because the rope disappears before the point of ACTUALLY BEING vertical... Had you released drill on that frame it's the last frame you would see the rope therefore "at the best it would be vertical" meaning that you simply wouldn't see the rope on the right side.
Sure I was wrong about the rope being actually vertical but that wasn't really what I was getting at anyway lol.
Also, at foxhound, I've admitted to being wrong thousands of times in my life, usually on stream or in person mostly. On forums I usually do my research BEFORE posting so it's rarer to be wrong on forums than in person. It had happened plenty though...
You have an unhealthy obsession with my word/post count... I've said countless times to countless people when I've been wrong and that I actually LOVE being wrong when it's proven because everything I know I was taught by other people anyway and when I'm wrong and someone shows me the truth, I'm growing as a person and that's a good feeling.
Though everytime you say this shit foxhound... Sigh... It's as if you want me to just say I'm wrong all the time for no reason. Like you want me to be a pushover, an absolute wimp who doesn't have the courage to defend his beliefs... F that.
If I believe I am right then I take it as far as possible until someone has proof I'm wrong and then I'll probably thank them for taking the time to teach me and share with me.
Forums are but a fraction of my life, stop worrying about me being right or wrong and just focus on the truth whether IT is right or wrong because that's more important than me anyway.
It would be nice if you joined in the discussion and only spoke about the discussion and stop babbling on about another person's post count or whatever, that's not important, the truth is.
If my posts are too long and you are too lazy or not interested enough to read them entirely, then I honestly don't give a f.
Deal with it.
So yeah, when it comes to rope tricks and stuff...
We base it on what we can see not hidden frames and things that haven't been rendered yet. Or, at least, I always have and always will anyway because it makes more sense and is easier to check and see for all without needed TA or knowledge about how the game renders stuff.
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Also, at foxhound, I've admitted to being wrong thousands of times in my life.
I was just wondering. Thanks for the answer. Still, usually you admit you are wrong in minor details, but the major point of the discussion you go endlessly, and you don't seem to change your point of view. Usually the discussion doesn't end, people just stop replying your posts.
You have an unhealthy obsession with my word/post count...
I think you have more obsession on this than me. I'm not the only one complaining here publicly that your posts are often exhaustive/excessive. I usually participate the discussions and argument, specially when is a subject that I have interest or that I have knowledge about. You never seen me discussing about keyboards for example.
everytime you say this shit foxhound... Sigh... It's as if you want me to just say I'm wrong all the time for no reason.
You know I agree with many of your thoughts and opinions. You are not wrong all the time. And I admire your love to this game and all the dedication you have here in TUS and in WA community. I like your streams, I like you. I like your laughs during your streams.
F that. [...] honestly don't give a f.
Ok, but you should know your behavior may cause conflicts and problems socially speaking, no matter if you cares about it or not.
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Triad changed it to a swoosh because when I used TA if I released rope ON THAT FRAME it shot right even though the rope was facing left.
I said if the only requirement to be a swoosh is to fire rope right then sure its a swoosh. So I assume he changed it.
Yeah. Personally, rope direction is my only requirement for a swoosh. My though process was as follows:
- Swoosh is a rope trick.
- Let's assume we are playing Trick Race, and the next trick is a swoosh. Realistically speaking, you cannot see the exact pre-release rope angle during the game; if the post-release firing angle is to the right direction, then you assume it should be a swoosh, and not an arch.
- Even if this is not a real swoosh, I believe swooshes should be retconned as such. Otherwise, will we check every suspicious swoosh at Trick Races, just as we check for possible sitters at BnG?
- Since you activate drill at Darts, and not shoot rope again, I decided to check rope angle, but now I realize that rope angles are not really trustworthy due to hidden frames.
- Thanks to TA, I was able to see the potential rope angle, and I believe it should be the only requirement.
- Swooshes on Darts maps are a remix of the original swoosh. And as I said, while we're playing any roping scheme. we'd only check the shooting angle, so that's why I also applied this principle to Darts.
- Even at Darts, you wouldn't pay attention to pre-release rope angle if the swoosh WAS NOT THE LAST TRICK BEFORE THE DRILL. For example, if it was Swoosh to Deviation, you'd only pay attention to post-release firing angle.
Tbh, it doesn't really matter anymore; Shtaket already improved his run anyways.
I'm looking for a roper (player) to help me on this task for years. Nobody ever accepted the idea. It is a lot of work and complicated, sure. But, if I had more knowledge about the tricks I would do this myself long time ago. Even with my limited knowledge I always think about starting the idea and see how people react to fix the article if needed. At least the very basic tricks. If a roper be available and want to work on this project, let me know. I can do the stuff myself, I just need someone to correct me and some orientation on how it should be done better.
Maybe I can help with some stuff. Indeed, it would be better to start with the core tricks first, then you would be able to explain the more complex ones easier. For example, if you know what Spikes and Shadows are, it'd be easier to understand Wizards, because a Wizard is essentially a Spike+Shadow. And if you understand Wizards, then you can understand Warlocks, because a Warlock is a Swing+Wizard.
Speaking of WKB articles, we (probably me and Komo) also need to improve the Darts article.
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I was just wondering. Thanks for the answer. Still, usually you admit you are wrong in minor details, but the major point of the discussion you go endlessly, and you don't seem to change your point of view. Usually the discussion doesn't end, people just stop replying your posts.
Well yeah, often we all get minor details wrong... It's like you're trying to tell me the sky is blue right now, that humans need oxygen to survive and that 2 + 2 = 4.
Yes, of course I go on endlessly, I like to talk and debate... Do you think I'm the only one though? I mean think about it... If I am going on "endlessly" then surely it takes 2 to tango right?
So why do you blame ME alone, when there are so many other people who also go "endlessly" with me, because I obviously don't do it alone... Why is it ok for other people to "go on endlessly" WITH ME but for me it's such a problem to do it back to them lol?
Your logic is flawed FoxHound.
I think you have more obsession on this than me. I'm not the only one complaining here publicly that your posts are often exhaustive/excessive. I usually participate the discussions and argument, specially when is a subject that I have interest or that I have knowledge about. You never seen me discussing about keyboards for example.
Nah, I'm perfectly fine, it doesn't take long to write or read my posts at all. You say it the most recently though, it's pretty funny.
Let's do some math though... When I look at the "Members" there are 252 pages, 30 members per page, on the last page there is only 4 so 7560 minus 26 is that's 7534.
Out of 7534 people who have signed up to TUS, minus let's say, 100 of those accounts that are probably Sir-J.
7434 people who have signed up to TUS.
Now, it's always the same 2-10 people who complain about the size of my posts, at the very most, I'd say about 30 or 40 people unique players over the entire span of TUS timeframe have ever complained about the length of my posts.
If we just say 40 though(keep in mind this is being generous), that's 0.538068335% of TUS users have complained about my posts being "exhaustive/excessive".
Now that we know it's a VERY SMALL minority of users who actually have an issue with my posts and openly speak out about it.
I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist over 0.5% of TUS players who complain about the way I write. Not to mention that the majority of that 0.5% are people I don't even consider friends or friendly so I'm pretty happy here.
Now, obviously all those TUS accounts, probably half of them are inactive...
Even if 25% of people didn't like my posts, it still wouldn't be enough to be a problem.
So clearly the problem is you, and the rest of the minority that have the issue, after all, it's your issue, not mine.
:P
Ok, but you should know your behavior may cause conflicts and problems socially speaking, no matter if you cares about it or not.
Don't worry about me, I fully understand the butterfly effect.
- Since you activate drill at Darts, and not shoot rope again, I decided to check rope angle, but now I realize that rope angles are not really trustworthy due to hidden frames.
- Thanks to TA, I was able to see the potential rope angle, and I believe it should be the only requirement.
- Swooshes on Darts maps are a remix of the original swoosh. And as I said, while we're playing any roping scheme. we'd only check the shooting angle, so that's why I also applied this principle to Darts.
- Even at Darts, you wouldn't pay attention to pre-release rope angle if the swoosh WAS NOT THE LAST TRICK BEFORE THE DRILL. For example, if it was Swoosh to Deviation, you'd only pay attention to post-release firing angle.
As I've said multiple times already, this is neither an arch, a mexi or a swoosh, it's something new entirely.
I'm just calling it a mexican swoosh because it's perfectly in the middle of being both while being neither.
Personally speaking, I'd still void that turn though, the rope has to be on the direction you're actually doing the swoosh for it to be a genuine swoosh, not the opposite side. When I made the first Darts map to use a swoosh, that's what I had in mind at least.
If the entire community and game developers decide otherwise, then fair enough, I'll have to accept that is is their choice to agree on that but I'll still say it's not a genuine swoosh whenever it's my decision.
However, this is Triads challenge, he decides.[/list]
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It is not an incorrect assumption.
It is an incorrect assumption, you and Triad did not and still do not have the same view of what a swoosh is. To you it looks like an arch so you have the opinion that it isn't a swoosh, for Triad it is enough that the rope shoots to the right if even if it looks like it would be an arch on the last frame the rope is visible. (03:40.60 in the replay)
That picture, it's not a swoosh it's an arch!
You yourself wrote earlier in this thread that what is and isn't a trick is a matter of opinion, so why are you stating it as a fact that it's not a swoosh?
It looks like an arch because the rope undergoes a frame of internal motion before being released.
I said if the only requirement to be a swoosh is to fire rope right then sure its a swoosh.
In the context of this challenge that is what constitutes as a swoosh, here in this challenge that is in fact a swoosh.
I am not wrong about the angle you can see in the picture that the rope is going left from the middle
That isn't the angle we were discussing. We were discussing the angle of the rope on the frame after the last frame the rope is rendered (03:40.62 in the replay). You said that angle would be at best totally vertical, but it is actually sloped slightly to the right.
Though yes, I'll admit I temporary forgot about the pre-frame thing. Which is irrelevant
It's relevant to determine a correct result in the context of this challenge, where if the rope shoots to the right after release even if it looks like an arch it's considered a swoosh.
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It is not an incorrect assumption.
It is an incorrect assumption, you and Triad did not and still do not have the same view of what a swoosh is. To you it looks like an arch so you have the opinion that it isn't a swoosh, for Triad it is enough that the rope shoots to the right if even if it looks like it would be an arch on the last frame the rope is visible. (03:40.60 in the replay)
What are we even talking about now?
I am saying that me saying it's not a swoosh, was not an incorrect assumption.
It was not a proper swoosh, so therefore it was not an incorrect assumption, Triad hasn't even got anything to do with this specific point.
That picture, it's not a swoosh it's an arch!
You yourself wrote earlier in this thread that what is and isn't a trick is a matter of opinion, so why are you stating it as a fact that it's not a swoosh?
It looks like an arch because the rope undergoes a frame of internal motion before being released.
I'm stating it as a fact that my opinion is a swoosh, the opinion itself isn't a fact other than the fact itself being that the fact IS an opinion.
As in, the fact of the matter is that it's an opinion.
Also, internal motion doesn't count... It's what we SEE that counts. And it's not a swoosh.
(https://i.imgur.com/j7sCnSH.png)
Trust me, I understand exactly what you are saying.
It still doesn't make it a swoosh if you don't SEE the rope actually ON the right side!
That's why when you explain to someone HOW to actually do a swoosh you say "Up and over and down" or "Up and release PAST the vertical point".
As in you release the rope AFTER the point, not before it.
You can clearly see in the picture above that it was released BEFORE you can see the rope on the right side.
If you want this to change, then tell Deadcode to make the frames properly visible, then we'll talk, until then, it's not a proper swoosh by the definition of a swoosh I've always been told, taught and lead to believe otherwise. This goes back BEFORE TA even existed.
I said if the only requirement to be a swoosh is to fire rope right then sure its a swoosh.
In the context of this challenge that is what constitutes as a swoosh, here in this challenge that is in fact a swoosh.
I can't argue with that!
If you guys want to label this as a swoosh, even if it doesn't actually meet all the traditional requirements of what people assumed a swoosh actually is historically, even if I don't like it, I've got no choice but to accept that so that's fair enough.
I am not wrong about the angle you can see in the picture that the rope is going left from the middle
That isn't the angle we were discussing. We were discussing the angle of the rope on the frame after the last frame the rope is rendered (03:40.62 in the replay). You said that angle would be at best totally vertical, but it is actually sloped slightly to the right.
I see what the problem is now:
Unfortunately that's not how the ninja rope works, there's quirk with the rope making it so it should be released 1 frame earlier than what the rendered frame is showing.
Yeah but at best it would be totally vertical, and still not a swoosh.
Yeah I was wrong about that, thinking about 2 different things at the same time.
So yeah, ignore that, yes I said that but it's bullshit and not what I actually wanted to say. I corrected it in the last time I addressed you.
Though yes, I'll admit I temporary forgot about the pre-frame thing. Which is irrelevant
It's relevant to determine a correct result in the context of this challenge, where if the rope shoots to the right after release even if it looks like an arch it's considered a swoosh.
It's irrelevant because it doesn't matter anymore, Triad added it, then deleted it, then added it again, but Shtaket went ahead and got a better score anyway so it's irrelevant now.
Yes, it's relevant to this challenge to all agree on what IS a swoosh in the event that happens, but irrevelant to the original point I was trying to make which is that it SHOULDN'T count because it's not a genuine swoosh!
If the last frame you see of the rope, is sticking up to the left, while you're travelling right to do a swoosh, then it's not a swoosh because the rope HAS TO BE VISIBLE on the right to actually be a swoosh.
I don't even care if Triad or you don't agree with me, that's what I've always believed a swoosh is, and what I will always continue to believe.
If anything though, I'm glad we've had this little discussion because we've actually discovered a new move, the mexican swoosh! That's the most exciting thing I got from this entire escapade!
It's not a mexi, it's not a swoosh, it's a mexican swoosh! :D
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This is the best way to explain it:
Swoosh:
When doing a swoosh, the flagpole extension on the last visible normal speed frame must be over and past the vertical point of the direction you're travelling, as well as the rope must shoot in the same direction.
Arch/Mexi:
When doing an arch or a mexi, the flagpole extension on the last visible normal speed frame must be before and not past the vertical point of the direction you're travelling, as well as the rope must shoot in the same direction.
Mexican Swoosh:
When doing a mexican swoosh, the flagpole extension on the last visible normal speed frame must be before and not past the vertical point of the direction you're travelling, but the rope must shoot in the same direction as the direction you're travelling. Note, this is only possible for ONE frame at the very precipice of the flagpole extension.
For all 3, subpixels or slow motion does not count, just frame by frame using normal game speed.
Edit - Triad calls the Mexican Swoosh "The Jackpot Frame" lmao, I like it, it's true, it's actually stupidly but interestingly difficult to pull this off without going HORRIBLY slow!
I've been chatting with Triad on Discord and it seems this is what we're going to be using as standard for Darts from now on.
We are however going to allow both the swoosh and mexican swoosh for swoosh for Darts and Darts challenges in general.
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Yeah, I am in favor of counting Mexican Swooshes valid for both Swoosh and Arch variations of Darts maps. :)
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This is why I absolutely LOVE getting into friendly forum confrontations with people!
You find out cool shit like this all the time!
Just discovered a new rope move, after so many years, not every day you get that!
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Blééé it all!
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Will you send a run Dangerovic ;D
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If anything though, I'm glad we've had this little discussion because we've actually discovered a new move, the mexican swoosh! That's the most exciting thing I got from this entire escapade!
Yes that's funny, as I've said that totally could be its own trick. I hope you take this away from the discussion too: you need to do testing before making claims. Even if you think you're 100% sure there may be a small detail about how the game works that you have forgotten. Be careful not to state your opinions as facts when it's critical that your own opinions don't come through as facts. That way when someone is asking for advice they can make their own informed decision.
If you want this to change, then tell Deadcode to make the frames properly visible
There's no technical reason for why there must be a 1 frame delay on the rope release in the first place, at least that I can think of. It should be possible keep track of a few variables and apply those variables on the frame the rope is actually released. That would make the ninja rope more responsive, fun and intuitive.
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This is why I absolutely LOVE getting into friendly forum confrontations with people!
You find out cool shit like this all the time!
Just discovered a new rope move, after so many years, not every day you get that!
I do recognize this trick as its own thing. For me it's more about the trick being executed on the first possible frame than how it looks. If a trick recognition system is ever implemented I think it would be cool if tricks that are executed on the first possible frame had some sort of distinction. It could have a different text color or be described as "Perfect", "Perfect Swoosh" for example. Other tricks could have a "Perfect" variant as well. For shadows it would be when the rope is only visible for one frame on the tap and for outlaws and spikes it would be when the rope is released on the first frame you bounce off a surface. Many other tricks may have a "Perfect" variant as well.
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If a trick recognition system is ever implemented I think it would be cool if tricks that are executed on the first possible frame had some sort of distinction. It could have a different text color or be described as "Perfect", "Perfect Swoosh" for example. Other tricks could have a "Perfect" variant as well. For shadows it would be when the rope is only visible for one frame on the tap and for outlaws and spikes it would be when the rope is released on the first frame you bounce off a surface. Many other tricks may have a "Perfect" variant as well.
A trick detection system would be really awesome. Imagine being able to play competitive warmers, basically something like Tony Hawk but for roping.
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I hope you take this away from the discussion too: you need to do testing before making claims. Even if you think you're 100% sure there may be a small detail about how the game works that you have forgotten. Be careful not to state your opinions as facts when it's critical that your own opinions don't come through as facts. That way when someone is asking for advice they can make their own informed decision.
Not sure what you think you achieved here but the same advice applies to you lol.
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did I do so much? I won't do this again.
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did I do so much? I won't do this again.
You mean your challenge record? 111 is really good, but not unbeatable. Not sure if I can beat it before the challenge ends.
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did I do so much? I won't do this again.
You mean your challenge record? 111 is really good, but not unbeatable. Not sure if I can beat it before the challenge ends.
I meant conversation. For example, I don’t care what method I used to get to 15
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I meant conversation. For example, I don’t care what method I used to get to 15
Oh, it's just W:A nerds (me included) nerding out about tiny details, mostly. ;D Don't worry about it. All your runs are fine, no void shots.
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did I do so much? I won't do this again.
You mean your challenge record? 111 is really good, but not unbeatable. Not sure if I can beat it before the challenge ends.
I meant conversation. For example, I don’t care what method I used to get to 15
Well, as long as it's what we consider to be either a swoosh or a mexican swoosh then it's fine.
The good thing is, we know absolutely how to judge it efficiently now.
The difference between Masta and I seems to be the way in which we measure the validity of a move. He said and I quote - "For me it's more about the trick being executed on the first possible frame than how it looks" which means he counts the missing frames that you cannot see normally. I highly doubt anybody even knew this was possible before replays and TA was available.
On the other hand I measure every move based on what you see with the normal frame by frame replay, and if replays weren't available, you'd record it and slow it down showing effectively the same thing. Instead of using TA to show "what we actually meant to happen but doesn't actually happen unless you use THIS specific replay feature to analyze it".
Speaking about those missing frames... They don't exist naturally do they? Those were added to the game via "tweening" weren't they? If this is the case then it's even stronger support to why I don't consider the move that Shtaket did a genuine swoosh. We don't measure moves by the direction the rope shoots only, we also measure them with what we see, the position we're in as we do them etc.
It's actually weird to me why the game was designed like this now, like, why not just show the LAST part of the frame instead of the first as it's being executed? Anyway I'm sure there's a reason for it. If that's the way it really is, then why not just show it like that? Though, that would take away this frame perfect new move we discovered lol.
Regardless of which way you record, it's interesting that in 25 years of playing this game, I've never seen that before!
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Not sure if this is trick race or darts.
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I measure every move based on what you see with the normal frame by frame replay
In this case you can't see the grenade touching the wall. In your view does this mean the bounce doesn't count and that the red team didn't win the game? It looks like the grenade was repulsed by a magnetic force, perhaps you would like to say it was repulsed instead of bounced in this case? The replay is attached.
A scenario where two players are playing trick race:
*Player 1 does a swoosh after 10 minutes of trying*
Player 2: That was kind of close to the edge, let's close the game and look at the replay frame by frame to make sure it wasn't a mexican swoosh.
*Turns out it was a mexican swoosh*
Player 2: You must try to do it again, you didn't do a swoosh. Now let's start the game, teleport back to our old positions and resume playing.
This is unreasonable and cumbersome to me. This scenario is one practical reason for why I'm arguing against the notion that how it looks is what counts. It's so this doesn't become the way we have to do things, as you say f that.
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In this case you can't see the grenade touching the wall. In your view does this mean the bounce doesn't count and that the red team didn't win the game? It looks like the grenade was repulsed by a magnetic force, perhaps you would like to say it was repulsed instead of bounced in this case? The replay is attached.
You can hear bounce off the wall and you can see that it changed direction.
Not sure what you are trying to achieve here other than trying to be a smartarse now?
We don't judge "tricks" with grenades or how they hit, we just use them to hit. It's not as relevant HOW they hit, unless you play BnG with rules like no sitters, but do you know what I mean?
A scenario where two players are playing trick race:
*Player 1 does a swoosh after 10 minutes of trying*
Player 2: That was kind of close to the edge, let's close the game and look at the replay frame by frame to make sure it wasn't a mexican swoosh.
*Turns out it was a mexican swoosh*
Player 2: You must try to do it again, you didn't do a swoosh. Now let's start the game, teleport back to our old positions and resume playing.
This is unreasonable and cumbersome to me. This scenario is one practical reason for why I'm arguing against the notion that how it looks is what counts. It's so this doesn't become the way we have to do things, as you say f that.
Do you think I have pity for 2 players who can't do a pretty easy enough move after 10 minutes of trying in a Trick Race lol? Sounds like they need to get better lol.
Try harder though Masta. It's not a good enough example to change my mind, the way I measure it is still more practical in my opinion.
If it's so bad, then just do what Triad and I did, allow mexican swooshes to count as swooshes. The way you do it is unreasonable and cumbersome to me, it literally takes longer to check it your way than my way. At least if you are watching in slow motion waiting to see the rope angle if you don't have access to TA.
Technically speaking we ARE actually using the information you reminded us of though, just in a different way from what you want, it was useful though, thanks!
If you ARE trying to convince me otherwise though, tackle it with this approach... Don't tell me what's more practical for YOU, think of something that would appeal to ME.
Right now, I see zero actual problems with doing it your way OR my way, they are both valid ways of measuring, it's just that the way I do it is more comfortable, feels more natural, it's faster to check for me personally etc. It also feels more traditional, historic and authentic to me.
The way you do it, you couldn't even check with the original game. So if you want to convince me you're going to have to think of something that appeals to me, not you since this is based on opinion.
Oh, one more thing!
Don't worry about it anyway, if you want to make a trick race and ALLOW it, then you are free to allow it in that Trick Race, you can say "This is what is considered a genune swoosh in this challenge" then define it any way you want.
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I'm asking you to be on the latest version of the game, press Shift + 0 + 9 and take an extra 5-10 seconds to check rare edge cases. You are asking me to always be unsure if I actually did a trick and having to restart mid-game to check. You are asking a lot more of me than I am asking of you.
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I'm asking you to be on the latest version of the game, press Shift + 0 + 9 and take an extra 5-10 seconds to check rare edge cases. You are asking me to always be unsure if I actually did a trick and having to restart mid-game to check. You are asking a lot more of me than I am asking of you.
Wait what?
You're asking me to take an extra 5-10 seconds to check, but somehow I'm asking more of you? How is something that takes longer actually faster lol? You're the one asking ME to do more, something that takes longer, and isn't as common.
It takes longer than 5-10 seconds because... You do realize that in Darts you don't have a rope shooting either direction as a signal right? So if the rope looks like it's on the wrong side we have to check anyway, and we want to check using frame by frame, not super slow motion tweening method.
How long it takes aside, why would you be unsure if the method I use is simple to understand and clear/visible to see? I don't believe you are "unsure" as you understood perfectly enough how I measure it to debate about it and specifically explain the difference between the methods.
Your measurement method takes slightly longer and requires an extra step as opposed to skipping to the time and just skipping frame by frame.
Not to mention it's not how long it takes that's important it's what you actually see, and as I've said before, your method involves "tweening". What you are seeing is something that's been added to the game more recently, which is why the method I use is more traditional, historic and authentic.
On the bright side, this is something that you are only ever going to have to use on very few occasions, and on those occasions it's up to the moderators of the event to decide which way to use so they can do it however they like.
Triad and I have decided that for Darts Challenges and dS Stuff we're going to do it the way we've mentioned. Interestingly enough, the result is the same in the end than if we did it your way anyway since the frame you personally think of as a swoosh is something we allow now anyway.
When it comes to Darts at least, you would have to check either way since you don't have the rope shoot direction to even see if it was an arch or a mexi. It just makes more sense to me this way.
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As long as a for example a trick race challenge replay can't be voided because a mexican swoosh was performed by accident instead of a swoosh (unless it is clearly stated in the description of the challenge that a mexican swoosh doesn't count as swoosh) I don't have an issue. We seem to have a fundamental disagreement about the importance how rope tricks look to determine what that trick is and that's fine. If I was abrasive, difficult or a smart ass at points in the discussion I apologize.
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As long as a for example a trick race challenge replay can't be voided because a mexican swoosh was performed by accident instead of a swoosh (unless it is clearly stated in the description of the challenge that a mexican swoosh doesn't count as swoosh) I don't have an issue. We seem to have a fundamental disagreement about the importance how rope tricks look to determine what that trick is and that's fine. If I was abrasive, difficult or a smart ass at points in the discussion I apologize.
Yeah, to be honest, it's pretty cool that we even have different ways of measuring these things. People have different ways of interpreting things, so the good thing is, you have a method you like, I have a method I like, we both together know and understand both methods and their differences so we can still agree on any particular event with absolute certainty and award judgement accordingly.
Sorry if I came across as a pain as well, but thanks for sticking in there and helping us out!