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Author Topic: Wally's school of politics  (Read 9924 times)

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Offline Crazy

Re: Wally's school of politics
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2012, 12:08 AM »
The difference in wage between minimum wage workers and the CEO's is fairly small in Norway compared to other countries/economies. I'm really happy about it, as I don't see the benefit of someone being payed several times more the average worker. The values of our society is based upon equality.

Walrus, I'm curious, what do you think of the way the case of Anders Breivik was handled? He was sentenced to atleast 21 years in prison for killing 77 people. Would you rather have seen him take the death penalty? In prison, Breivik can access a computer, he's got books to read, he has his own room to work out in, and he is currently studying political science. What do you think about this?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 12:11 AM by Crazy »

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Re: Wally's school of politics
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2012, 12:11 AM »
In prison, Breivik can access a computer, he's got books to read, he has his own room to work out in, and he is currently studying political science. What do you think about this?

you're building Hitler 2.0
MonkeyIsland, my friend, I know your english is terrible and your understanding of society limited. However, in real life, people attack and humiliate others without the use of a single bad word. They even go to war with lengthy politeness. You can't base the whole moderation philosophy of a community based on the use of bad words and your struggle with sarcasm and irony. My attack to Jonno was fully justified and of proper good taste.
Eat a bag full of dicks.

Offline TheWalrus

Re: Wally's school of politics
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2012, 12:36 AM »
How do you know that they've worked harder? Did they have night shifts? Did they have to work multiple jobs like minimum wage workers?
So the guy flipping burgers and working the drivethrough at McDonalds should run the company, because in all reality, theres nothing that CEO's do.  They don't even show up to work, and just cash multi-million dollar bonus checks. ::)  I'm really trying to be reasonable here, but this:

What is it that these people do, anyway?

Is absurd.  What makes you think some average shmuck off the street can successfully run a corporation?  You realize most CEO's work like dogs and have basically no time for family life or otherwise, not to mention it is a ton of management and responsibility.....A fellow I met when I was in treatment for drug addiction had a father who was a CEO of a decently large company.  He and his father had no relationship because his father basically left the house at 6 and came home at 10 and just went to bed, and then did the same thing over and over again.  I get where the large divide in salary is a problem, but questioning the difference in occupation and the demands as such, just wow.  Running a firm isn't really a hands-off kind of job, I'm pretty sure the ones who don't work as hard see their corporations tank.  Pay everyone the same amount, and see how many people want to study 10 years to be a doctor, when you can get paid the same as a job that requires a 2 month training class.  Thats not socialism, thats communism.

Walrus, I'm curious, what do you think of the way the case of Anders Breivik was handled? He was sentenced to atleast 21 years in prison for killing 77 people. Would you rather have seen him take the death penalty? In prison, Breivik can access a computer, he's got books to read, he has his own room to work out in, and he is currently studying political science. What do you think about this?
I'm not an advocate for the death penalty.  I am appalled to hear that he only recieved 21 years in prison.  Under what system of law does a man that dangerous have a chance of being unleashed upon society again at some point?  I wouldn't kill him, but there should have been no way he was afforded a computer or books.  The liberties he now enjoys are the ones he stole from his victims.  That isn't justice.  That isn't rehabilitation.  That is a gross missapropriation of justice.  I still can't believe that.  You meant sentenced to 211 years in prison, I hope. 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 12:45 AM by TheWalrus »

Offline HHC

Re: Wally's school of politics
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2012, 01:41 AM »
The middle is the best.

Wally's system is nice because it rewards people who make an effort (and thereby stimulates the creative forces in the economy). On the other hand, it is too rigid, because there are indeed many tasks within a society that are better in the hands of a central power with no commercial aspirations than in the hands of private folks.
And IMO it is the task of a government as well to take care of the excesses of the economic system and ensure the well-being of ALL of its citizens and not just the ones who have had the fortune to be considered 'life's winners'. Children, the elderly, handicapped people and even underprivilidged people (biologically or socially) are all likely to fall victim to a system that rewards people for their skills in private enterprise.
Charity is not going to cover that. People are way to shortsighted and selfish for that. Especially today. Even if they have the means and the will to do good, they won't just throw 40% of their paycheck on the street.

What you also need to realize is that the US cannot compete with the 'East' when it comes to cheap, manual, industrial labour like in the old days. The west can only compete by specializing in high tech jobs, the kind that need real education ánd capital. Both of these are readily available in most places in the west.
This is why it is so important to have good education and good education for áll citizens. You're gonna create a lot of trouble when you make education a privilidge and only allow a small percentage of your population to follow high education, while forcing businesses to seek talent elsewhere, overseas. It will create huge differences between rich and poor, perhaps even complete social strife (starting with more socialist minded presidents like Obama), while at the same time the economy will depend more and more on imported workers who might one day just stay in their homecountries and work for multinationals there. No difference.


Not saying the European socialist policies are that superb though. Here too we have many excesses, but most of them of the complete opposite as in the US. We do have CEO's with badass bonuses, but most problems are on the other hand. Lots of people not making too much of an effort anymore to make a living. Cause of all the subsidies for many people it is actually more attractive to get a minimum wage than say 500-1000 euro above that, cause that's when the taxes kick in and many special services aren't available anymore. This stimulates people to stay in the position they are in and not work towards higher functions anymore.
Not to say people don't try, as many here suffer from burnouts as well, but yeah, it's not a system IMO that gets the best out of people who lack inner motivation.

Not to mention absurdities like the one mentioned by Crazy. Policies that may seem humane, but are at the same time very unfair to the real victims and their families.


Regarding the army stuff. There's no real need for small countries to spend a shitload on arms here. Our direct neighbours are no threat as they share the same 'market' and thus equal economic interests and democratic populations (that have everything they need at hand) don't really feel a need to risk their lives in a dirty, bloody war with an other democratic nation. For the US, as the world's superpower things are a little different.

Btw, it's easy to say the Iraq war only cost money and wasn't beneficial at all in economic terms, but that's in hindsight. The Bush administration envisioned a very different outcome. A swift, easy invasion, the overthrowing of the regime and a solid and beneficial cooperation with the new people in power. That would without much doubt indeed have resulted in a very positive outcome, in oil, money and power.
It didn't turn out that way.

Offline TheWalrus

Re: Wally's school of politics
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2012, 04:57 PM »
Save us from Berlusconi Wally!
We in America would love it if Monti stayed in power as long as possible, its a shame hes stepping down.  Be interesting to see what the populists do in this next election in Italy.  I think Berlusconi saved himself from Berlusconi ;) There is a chance you could see him up there again, hes been prime minister what, at least 3-4 times now?  No reason a little bunga bunga couldn't stop him from a 5th term :)

What you also need to realize is that the US cannot compete with the 'East' when it comes to cheap, manual, industrial labour like in the old days. The west can only compete by specializing in high tech jobs, the kind that need real education ánd capital. Both of these are readily available in most places in the west.
Lots of good stuff in your post, but I wanted to share some information.  I did some independent research and it appears that the pendulum is shifting, and that eventually jobs will either come back to the united states or go elsewhere for manufacturing.  Apparently the manipulation of the yuan that the chinese have been doing for years has finally run its toll.  Because of pressure put on them from the United States and other countries because any country that imports products that compete with the Chinese are effectively losing.  They are losing because the Chinese, in artificially driving down the value of their currency, are able to make cheaper products to increase exporting.  Normally all this exporting would increase the raw value of their yuan, but they have been holding it down to basically slaughter the competition in hopes that their monopolistic practices would leave them the sole provider of the cheap labor and industrial output that they have been.  They are basically damaging the living conditions of their citizens as they do this, as the people that profit are the government, as the country has seen itself go from basically a agricultural third world country to a world superpower in the span of half a century.  Basically, the trend is reversing and China is no longer able to hold down the value of their yuan, and firms from the United States are even bringing business back, albeit on a very slow scale so far.  It qill be quite some time before a significant shift is seen, and I am definitely not saying industry will return to pre 1980's levels.  I could write all day on this, as I already have, if anyone is in the mood for some light reading I did a write up on US - Chinese trade relations.  It was supposed to be for a dissertation for my political science degree but ended up being just for my own pleasure.  Instead of posting up a block of text, I attached it if anyone is interested in learning a little bit more, beware though, it checks in at about 2500 words ;)

* ChinaUS_TR.rtf (57.54 kB - downloaded 129 times.)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 05:08 PM by TheWalrus »

Offline HHC

Re: Wally's school of politics
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2012, 06:19 PM »
I reckon you are right Wally, but the process will take a looong time. China will develop an economy that will eventually resemble a western one more and more as wages are rising, consumer demands are increasing and the education level of the people is growing constantly.

But... next in line is not the US. Once labour in China starts to become more expensive the multinationals will simply move south, to India and south East Asia and maybe even Africa on the long run.

According to your view the US workers have to sit it out until the rest of the world is earning as much or even more as US citizens before the loans can finally rise. In about 100 years or so... meanwhile the prices are going up every year and more and more people at the bottom are having issues making ends meet. It seems much more efficient, and humane, to educate these people so they can be employed in a different kind of labour, that requires more skill and promises increased revenues, for the citizens and for the nation as a whole.
At the same time, there needs to be at least a half-reasonable minimum wage for people who are just not able to qualify for the better jobs. This will enable them to lead the life of a regular (middleclass) citizen, which is good for the society as a whole. There's no profit in having them end up in deteriorated neighbourhoods where crime and social strife reign and children are brought up without any real prospect of moving up on the social ladder.

For businesses this is really not that big a deal. They think in quantities that go way beyond the billions of dollars.
If you can afford to give a CEO half a million you can surely afford to give a cleaning lady +100 dollars each month.

Offline Peja

Re: Wally's school of politics
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2012, 08:07 PM »
well i have some geopolitical questions to the great wally.

u have spoken from an foreign politic based on Isolationism. do you think it was wrong the usa took part in ww2 in europe even the outcome was a big succes? furthermore what do you think about the interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan? Do you think its ok to send military forces to crash a regime which is oppressing  people?

What do you think about the United Nations? which role should they play on worldwide conflicts?
What can be done to avoid a debacle with peacekeeping forces like in Srebrenica or Rwanda?
What can the UN do to avoid creating a platform for authoritarian regimes to share their political ideas? (like in the Durban Review Conference from 2009)
Do you think the state of palestine deserves a full membership in the united nations, even their government is unwilling/unable to controll their own people not to attack a legitimate country according to international law in their direct neigborship?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 08:10 PM by Peja »

Re: Wally's school of politics
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2012, 08:22 PM »
So the guy flipping burgers and working the drivethrough at McDonalds should run the company, because in all reality, theres nothing that CEO's do.
Is absurd.  What makes you think some average shmuck off the street can successfully run a corporation?  You realize most CEO's work like dogs and have basically no time for family life or otherwise, not to mention it is a ton of management and responsibility.....
[...] Pay everyone the same amount, and see how many people want to study 10 years to be a doctor, when you can get paid the same as a job that requires a 2 month training class.  Thats not socialism, thats communism.

Well, now you're just being silly. The guy flipping burgers won't be able to live just from his McDonalds salary though. (S)he'd have to have another job on the side for that, especially if there's a family to feed.
As for the work of a CEO: I'm not saying they don't work. I'm saying it's not nearly as special as the salary for it suggests. They don't risk their lives at work (military personnel, firemen, pilots, nurses (you know, contagious diseases and all that), construction workers (tall buildings for example), radiation workers, policemen etcetera) for example.
It's not extraneous mental activities (theoretical physicists, mathematicians for example), not extraneous physical activities (military personnel, construction workers, stunt guys).
You mention the example of a CEO. I know an example of an intervention radiologist (well, 2 in the hospital where I work). They of course have their normal working days, but in addition to that, they're on call for vascular emergencies (people bleeding out, brain aneurysms). Since there are only 2 of them, that means half the year, they can be called at any time during the day, evening and night - including sundays and holidays. It's not unheard of for them to have to go to work at 3am and then still have to show up for work the following morning.
Now, doctors make a nice living, of course, and I'm not complaining about the money I'm making right now - but even with my salary it would take me a couple of decades to earn some of these bonuses (for example, the average yearly salary of goldman sachs employees). You can't convince me that CEOs work more than 10 times as hard as I do (or anyone else with a full time job, really), since a week doesn't have that many hours

Sure, certain jobs should pay more than other jobs, but holy crap, dude, they're not the saviours of the earth. I don't think their positions can be defended as things stand now.

Offline TheWalrus

Re: Wally's school of politics
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2012, 02:35 PM »
well i have some geopolitical questions to the great wally.

u have spoken from an foreign politic based on Isolationism. do you think it was wrong the usa took part in ww2 in europe even the outcome was a big succes? furthermore what do you think about the interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan? Do you think its ok to send military forces to crash a regime which is oppressing  people?
Ahh, Peja.  As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.  You have brought worthy questions to my table, and are deserving of a worthy response.  Since you have requested I slowly bequeath my knowledge unto you, so therefore it shall be done:

U.S. was following isolationist tenets and was as close to true isolationist foreign policy as it ever had leading up to Franklin Roosevelt's declaration of war following the Pearl Harbor attack by the Japanese.  Churchill had been lobbying nonstop for quite some time leading into the U.S. entry into the war to get Roosevelt to join with him in the fight against the Axis.  Roosevelt was steadfast in the notion that the U.S. would not enter the war, falling in line with the wants of the U.S. public.  However, he changed his mind. Pearl Harbor was not a suprise attack. 

In fact, Churchill and FDR were co-conspirators in the greatest turncoat action ever perpetrated on the American people.  At the time, congress and the American people were very opposed to the war, and Roosevelt got all the justification he needed with the Pearl Harbor attack.  Roosevelt denied intelligence to the armed forced in Hawaii about the location of the Japanese fleet and deceived them regarding ongoing relations with the Japs.  He made ready the red cross to prepare for the disaster before it even happened.  The 'devastation' of the pacific navy fleet was a myth, the ships destroyed in the attack were older ships nonessential to the main force of the navy in that region.  FDR had the essential ships put out to sea previous to the attack in preparation.  I forget who he called, but he called someone with the British government, I don't think it was Churchill, mere minutes after being informed about the attack and without any damage reports, and told them that none of the newer ships were in the harbor.  Churchill and J. Edgar Hoover have both confirmed that FDR had knowledge that the Japanese were coming.  He intentionally kept Hawaii in the dark to spark public outrage when the attack happened, knowing that was the only way congress would let him enter the war.  The was in an era where you needed the support of congress to declare war  ::)

That being said, the U.S. entry into WWII was a net positive.  I have no doubt Hitler could have stonewalled Stalin and Churchill without the intervention of the U.S.  The Axis would have dominated all of Western Europe and the Russians were far too poorly organized to ever defeat the Nazis on their own.  One of Hitler's biggest miscalculations was the United States' willingness to enter the war.  FDR did a deplorable thing to get the U.S. into the war, but it needed to happen.  In this case, Isolationism is defeated by the greater good of the largest part of the civilized world at the time.  I would have opposed entering the war, and I would have been dead wrong.  That being said, lets move to your next question:

The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were both deplorable.  There as no reason for either, with or without Saddam's supposed weapons of mass destruction.  That's why it is a moot point for me, and my eyes glass over when people argue about Bushs' intentions, and whether or not there was actionable military intelligence on WMD's.  It doesn't matter.  Possession of WMD's in the hands of an aggressive country isn't a crime, we would have turned on Isreal long ago.  Of course, Netanyahu isn't gassing his own people, but still, there was no aggression toward another country.  There is no doctrine that requires the United States to be the watchdog of the world.  Judgement must be applied, and action taken only when the greater good of a large group of countries is at stake, and it wasn't.  Afghanistan is barely a country.  Iraq was downright inept, it's a good thing they invaded Kuwait preceding the Gulf War, because they would have gotten their ass handed to them if they invaded anywhere else.

Alternatively, I approve of strike actions like the one that netted us Bin Laden.  Sovereignty is overrated.  I know that will anger some of the purists here, but one constant of the United States has been a strong military, and that allows us to do whatever the hell we want, basically.  I draw the line short of occupying a country.  People may cry foul about this, "The United States is a bully," and "The US has no right."  We have the right, and its stamped on every serviceman's uniform and piece of war machinery.  It's the universal law of force, and we didn't invent it.  It's been practiced in every civilization from the dawn of time.  Any notion that we have simply moved past it is a fallacy.  Mablak and Shy might want to cut military spending way down, but there's a reason no country has even though about invading the United States in 60 years.  Theres a reason North America is the safest place in the world in terms of armed conflict.  Could you imagine if the US was situated in mecca with its current force?  Would Hezbollah be running skirmishes on our borders?  I think not.  The people that want to cut military spending in half, are the very people that take their absolute safety every day for granted.  I know that is a hard line, but I feel military spending is important to the United States.  Who in this country is really suffering?  I mean, really.  Take a trip down skid row in Mumbai and tell me the soup kitchen line in Los Angeles compares.  The needs of the many have always outweighed the needs of the few. 

Long story short, Peja.  No.  I wouldn't commit the resources.  I'd bomb the shit out of key locations and equip the oppressed as best I could, but liberation of a country rests in the hands of its citizens.  My country was founded on those principles.  Only in situations of world war and/or a threat to the immediate safety of the American people do I order troops to occupy a country.

Re: Wally's school of politics
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2012, 04:50 PM »
  The people that want to cut military spending in half, are the very people that take their absolute safety every day for granted.  I know that is a hard line, but I feel military spending is important to the United States.  Who in this country is really suffering?  I mean, really. 

what an atrocious and ignorant statement.  First of all, we assassinated Hussein and invaded the Middle East for monetary reasons, not safety reasons for the American people.  That was the front we sold.  We invaded for oil and drugs, two of the worlds top commodities.   With that being said, I can without a doubt say our military spending is outrageous while not taking my safety for granted.  Who in this country is really suffering?  The people living in poor urban areas that are run by gangs, the thousands on innocent people who die by gang violence every year.  Something like 9/11 happens once in a blue moon, and for the record, read some wikileaks war logs and just see how many innocent people our army kills.  I don't know how someone can support the US army without being totally brainwashed or ignorant to reality. 

Cut military spending, we already have enough shit to blow up the world 100 times over, why must we keep pumping trillions of dollars into it? We could be using that money to clean up these shitty urban areas so kids don't feel like growing up in a gang is their only option to life
  <-- my brain when I clan with avi

Offline TheWalrus

Re: Wally's school of politics
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2012, 06:29 PM »
what an atrocious and ignorant statement.  First of all, we assassinated Hussein and invaded the Middle East for monetary reasons, not safety reasons for the American people.  That was the front we sold.  We invaded for oil and drugs, two of the worlds top commodities.
Shhh.  This is an international forum.  We don't need anyone knowing that the real reason we invaded Afghanistan was for the vast droves of heroin that the government secretly distributes to the ghettos to keep the destitute at bay.

Who in this country is really suffering?

You bit quoted me, I was making a comparison.  We have it great in America.  I was once homeless and living conditions were quite good.  I lived in a shelter where living conditions were quite good.  I was given clothes, a bed, somewhere to shower, and 3 meals a day.  The shelter even ran a program to get people jobs that were having trouble.  I worked my way out of there into an apartment.  You act like there is no way out of being poor.

Cut military spending, we already have enough shit to blow up the world 100 times over, why must we keep pumping trillions of dollars into it?

Because other countries haven't cut spending.  To maintain a military that no country in the world would dare challenge costs money, big money.  How many countries are kept at bay because of the might of the U.S. military?  Look at what happened in Georgia a couple of years ago.  You think imperialistic-minded countries might act differently if the U.S. wasn't on their ass?  I'm not a big supporter of the U.S. watchdog mentality, but it does do some good.  Without the U.S. and a few other countries, South Korea would be part of North Korea.  Georgia would be part of Russia.  Iran would most certainly annex a weakened Iraq.  So I take it you are at least with me on the U.S. not helping out other countries when the situation doesn't directly interfere with us?  Because you can't have it both ways.  You can't defend other countries on a budget, you have seen how much the Iraq war cost America.

If you can afford to give a CEO half a million you can surely afford to give a cleaning lady +100 dollars each month.

On the lighter side, cleaning ladies in our country do very well for themselves, they are hurting the least.  The polish cleaning lady my mother employs drives a cadillac CTS, its an all cash business, so very few of them actually pay taxes.  All while clearing close to $30,000+ tax free.  Sophia is killing it, she's straight balling out.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 06:36 PM by TheWalrus »

Re: Wally's school of politics
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2012, 11:35 PM »
Haven't we already established that we could cut military spending in half and still have the largest military in the world by far? Even if we cut it by 500 billion, we would still be the biggest superpower, not that I even think we have to be on top. It should be noted that dumping as much money as we possibly can into our military is not a long-term path to peace, only gradual universal disarmament is. And didn't we already talk about the 26,000 people who die from lack of health care every year? Health care would be a vastly more effective form of guarding our citizens from death. Shy is correct, our own intelligence agencies had predicted that terrorism would be increased by invading Afghanistan, and it was; our safety is not their primary concern. Also, there is one imperialist country that is most certainly not kept at bay by the might of the US, that is, the US.

Military intervention needs to be predicated on a simple moral tenet; treat others the way you want to be treated, barring the occasional exception. It's amazing how this simple principle seems to escape us constantly. If it's wrong for another country to constantly barrage us with drone strikes and kill hundreds or thousands of civilians in the process while keeping communities in a state of constant terror (i.e. terrorism), then it's also wrong that we're doing that right now in Waziristan in Pakistan. If it's wrong for someone else to invade a country on false pretenses, it's wrong for us to do that in Iraq. It's an incredible double standard that pretty much doesn't even register for most people.

Offline TheWalrus

Re: Wally's school of politics
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2013, 09:53 PM »
I haven't updated here in awhile, and the world is still spinning!  More issues have cropped up in the political sphere.  Lets take a jaunt through a news story that has been in the forefront of American lives lately:

I'm going to launch right in, if you want to read about the attack, here it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Benghazi_attack

Secretary of State Clinton's total failure to protect american lives in Benghazi.  Transmissions ignored, and instead of reinforcing the position in Benghazi, Americans were abandoned.  This follows the negligent foreign policy of an inept presidency.  Clinton should have been removed from her post immediately following the attack, failing to take action cost the lives of four americans that could have been otherwise saved.  I feel like Rand Paul and John McCain were on point with their criticisms of her.  I feel a bit blindsided because I consider myself a Clinton supporter, as 'ol Bill was one of my favorite presidents. 

President Obama has made a habit of weakening the USA and bending to the will of extremist countries to the point of endangering american citizens.  I am furious with his decisions and foreign policy.  To forge alliances with countries traditionally cool to relations with the USA, he has sold his soul.  In the most recent act, he has gifted 20 F-16 fighter jets and over 200 M-1 tanks to Egypt.  Unbelievable.  You are telling me this is my president?  If I knew we were going to start operating like Russia, selling arms to any country regardless of the negative collateral damage that can and will be done with it?  I'm sure Ben Netanyahu is going to be appreciative that we just armed up Egypt.  This asinine aid package was likely conceived before Mohammed Morsi took power, and considering the current regime in Egypt, it should have been scrapped.  It could have been scrapped, according to sources, but Obama decided to go through with it.  How much longer will Americans put up with the negligent buffoon we have elected into office?  I'm incensed to be an American, today.  Not only did I have to put up with George H.W. Bush, but now I have to endure Obama's policies?  In an area of the world where constant conflict has been the pervasive trend, we are arming the forces of totalitarianism. 

To those people(s) of the middle east that frequent these forums that believe in peace:  I apologize for the United States' constant undermining of the peace process.  I can make allowances for the United States' actions in correlation with Iran and Israel, but I cannot condone the direct supply of weapons to wage war put into the hands of a dictator who has done nothing but threaten to wage war with neighboring countries and on his own people.  I don't get it.  Maybe someone could point me in the direction of a country that is accepting citizenship applications because the ignorance of my own people is appalling.  Even after Clinton's unbelievable negligence that killed 4 Americans in Benghazi, her approval rating hangs around 70%.  Are you joking?  This is what Americans think good on-job performance is?  I could use some good old anti-american sentiment, just for today.  Join me.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 09:58 PM by TheWalrus »

Re: Wally's school of politics
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2013, 12:15 AM »
I don't see peace in the middle east happening, because neither party is willing to even acknowledge that the other guys are suffering from this war. Doesn't help that religion is a major thing in the region either.

But then again, maybe they just need this

Re: Wally's school of politics
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2013, 05:02 AM »
What's mainly outrageous is how steadfastly and consistently our government lies to us; the incident was not preceded by protests about the anti-Muslim video, as was first claimed. Granted, there has been outrage over that video, and to hell with people who think we should respect their religious dogma at the cost of free speech, but it was demonstrably not the cause in this case. At first I uncritically accepted the original explanation; we should always be skeptical when the only news source is straight from the administration's mouth.

As far as Hillary Clinton's failure, the blame can't be put squarely on her, and I think this issue is nothing more than another partisan distraction, which both sides absolutely love. As a general rule, the more attention the media gives to an issue, the less important it actually is. Take gun control for example, we could easily be focusing on the misguided drug war instead, as legalizing more drugs would curb gang violence dramatically, but instead we focus on a more superficial issue (which needs addressing, but still). And yeah, we really seem to enjoy propping up dictators in the middle east, so that we can later go to war with them.