sorry dub but u actually did break a rule, you shouldof just skipped even tho it was such a small thing
AFR/AFC = Attack from rope or parachute
if you break any of these rules you must skip your next turn, but your allowed to collect your crate, if you break a rule more then once the game will be void or given to your opponent at the mods discretion
i actually would like afr to be removed too, but this game needs to be void
maybe we can have a vote to change it if alot of people want to
lal xD
without afr in shoppa,the scheme woulda become much more easier^^(it's easy atm too,but...)
i don't think that's a good idea :P
Actually I think it don't make a difference. You you don't afr, you can't hide anymore.
Yep , doesnt make much of a difference, you might have some advantage with some weapons when you shoot them not from rope, zook e.g. Actually i never understood why shoppa is played afr in WWP but not in WA (at least some oldschoolers always insist on no afr, if i think more about it its actually only Chicken23 who ever insisisted on no afr on shoppas xD). As MI said, more of tactical decision whether you make use of it or not. Not having the afr rule would make attacks kinda easier i guess, dont know if that is wanted...
As for breaking a rule, I ask for a little common sense. It was a drill, i didnt shoot bird to the air from ground, i did 8 damage. He didnt tell me i cowed till 2 turns after and i didnt know wtf he was talking about. This is just a case of a poor sport trying to get out of a loss.
Plus it had no effect on the outcome. I will be very dissapointed in the system if this game is voided because of a drill not on a rope, that he didnt tell me about till long after the fact.
This is a big waste of time for everyone, phanton can just suck it up and take his loss like a man and a good sport then trying to get out of a loss on a technicality.
Yes, it may have taken little hp, but rules are rules, and I asked numerous times to you skip, and you became a fool, saying that they understood, I now is I'll be disappointed if that is not canceled or canceled .. . because if this will turn into a mess ... think well, if one did, and nothing is done, imagine 100 players doing this will turn into a mess, and one thing I'm sure that if it was me who had done cow and had won it would also be complaining, and I say this not in victory or points and such, but the breakdown of simple rules and lack of complicity of the player, saying it is a waste of time that .... the forun was made for that my friend (discussions, chat and such), if not for that would then ...
No more recent>>> Phantom ???
You didnt call me a cow and a noob till well after the fact. I didnt know i drilled off the rope. When u asked to skip i just finished a turn where i did not cow. I asked how icow'd n u couldnt answer. It had no effect on the game drilling on rope or off rope had no effect on the game. That accidental drill off rope does not deserve a skip which in that situation would have been a gross over penalty for the action.
Take your loss like a man and
a good sport instead of whining an trying to get out of a game you clearly loss.
i agree this is pretty unsporting to complain about, if i was phanton i would actually be happy that u hit yourself with grave damage
but as said... rules were broken and if phanton feels it needs to be void then we have to void it
im gonna open a vote on the afr thing
edit: https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/leagues-general/afr-in-shopper/
I think common sense and discretion should be used in this case. If it had no affect on the outcome then it should not b void. PLUS he could not tell me how i cow'd!!! He told me well after the fact. If cant tell me when or how i cowed how am i expected to skip?
Watch the replay and then the time he told me to skip. It made no sense to me. This game should not get voided and phanton should be taught a valuable life lesson in the mean time
can another mod post something please? it sux modding a complaint like this when it involves your clan m8
I re-watched the game. I was wrong he did say cow right after it happened. I just didn't look at my chat until I said "What?". Either way the drill had no effect on the game. I purposely without thinking fell on him to drill. With the numerous seconds I had I could have drilled on the rope but out of habit and lack of thought I didn't. Using the drill not on the rope and using a zook while not on the rope to shoot someone who is hid above you in a hide you cant get at is a big difference and in my opinion the reason why the rule was put in place in the first place. The infraction however did not warrant a skipped turn. I did 8 damage to his worm killing him and it did more then 8 damage to me in grave damage. He continued playing until the end in case he won and couldn't tell me when or how I cow'd and because I didn't know I did cow, I would not skip. It was poor sportsmanship that he even asked me to skip and at the very least should have explained to me when and how I skipped. He had lost the game and was looking for anyway to get out of the loss.
Rules are rules but everything is up for interpretation and there is always a grey area. Marijuana is illegal to have in your system in the Olympics. A Canadian snowboarder got caught with a trace amount of marijuana in his system after he won the gold medal. If rules were strictly the rules he would have lost his gold medal and it would have been a travesty. However, the IOC [mods] decided that the trace amount of marijuana did not make him win the gold medal and they allowed him to keep his gold medal and I should be able to keep this win.
I agree with Dub on this one! This is like complaining when some1 does a mistake thats against the rules but goes in ur own favour. if this in any way effected the game it was in Phanton's favour. And Im sure it have been several situations like this b4 Phantonn without ppl complaining, clearly cause it was in theire own favour. u know that dub easy could have killed u there without getting grave dmg and a worse hide. Then the whole " a rule is a rule" thing gets a bit 2 cheesy 2 say imo. I mean, a rule is a rule, but fair play and a bit of common sense is more important. There's a saying; every rule has an exeption. This is clearly one of those lol.
Phanton is a fair player. I know him enough to say that.
We have had such complaints in the past, remember crash beat maciej in elite with skipwalking that didn't affect the game?
As we said before, we don't wanna open door to 'My cow didn't affect the game' complaints.
For this game, I think even using drill without rope gave phanton an advantage. But rules are rules.
I think the game must be void. If you feel unhappy about it, you can wait for Rok's asnwer.
" my cow didn't affect the game " this rule shud be added
lmao , skipwalking is cheat xDDD
youuu cheaterrr!!!!
wow, this is really difficult, imo.
I mean Dub actually played better, and made no real mistake except the cow and because of this won the game.
But a skip (meaning ctaching the crate and going back in his hide) could have changed the game. The thing is: it could. Which means Dub wins the game 100% if the breaking of rules in this case would be not important and (regarding the scheme and Dubs hide) he would win also at least 50% of the cases when he skipped, imo.
Plus the fact that he also had plenty of time for attcking from rope with the drill would make me say that Dub should get the win.
But I also can understand people giving arguments for Phanton's point of view. It remains a difficult case.
Sorry for taking so long to reply, RL etc...
This is again the case when we need to decide wether we follow rules strictly or make an exception because cow didn't matter much result-wise. Dub-c and Uber have a point about common sense and discretion, Phanton OTOH has a legitimate (according to current league rules) right for this complaint. As I made decisions in favor of strict rules before, this is now hard to decide... It's however different than for example when crash used skipwalking - Dub-c didn't cow intentionaly.
Well, still, as much as it sucks, I choose to follow the league rules, so game should be voided, sorry Dub-c :/
Travesty to the integrity of the league imo. I won't play another game on tus, it bothers me that much.
if this game gets voided.. then phantom is a joke... and tus is aswell. The rules should be used as a guide to encourage fair play and sportsmanship. Dub did nothing wrong.
Rules are over looked all the time, like when someone accidently blocks in roper, and the enemy still attacks as gets a close crate. The blocker doesnt have to not attack..
@Dub-c and Chicken, it's not bad to think on our side too.
Leagues complaints board on TUS is the most active board and many people just check this board on daily basis.
You could imagine how many people would try to manipulate the system with 'my cow didn't affect the game'. Many people check complaints all the time to find such holes in the system. How many times have you seen somebody says: 'Is that so? Then I'll do it in all of my games from now on.'
Do you wanna alter the rules for such thing?
So let them say it! We are that many "normal" and "fair" wormers in here, we wont let them have their way... I mean, I cant imagine any1 saying "U let the cow Dub do get "overlooked" so i will try 2 do the same".. Each case have 2 be dealt with individually, in a rules system like this there will always be some cases of "personal judgement"- Each case CANT be treated the same, its not like that in any rule system what so ever. Different types of "cows" in this case should have different type of penalties. In this case the cow was 2 Dub-c's own penalty. He made the game worse for himself, not any1 else.. Lol its obvious.. Pls show that ur not just robots reading a rule book..
Edit: Just so u understand what i'm saying; if the rules ALWAYS shall be followed like slaves, we dont even need mod's here.. U been declared mods cause people think u have the fairness, modesty and common sense to find what penalties or no penalties suits each complaint.. In this case a NO penalty is the best thing to do. u all know it :)
Ok, I see your point. Forget about whats fair and save yourselves some work.
If this was any other situation and happened against someone else I would not care. This kid was so proud of himself after the game that he was going to get out of the loss. "haha noob not know rules" "haha game will be erased now" etc pathetic. It was a drill that didn't affect the game. For all the reasons I stated throughout this thread this will be my last post and that bullshit my last game
p.s I dont want to sound disrespectful, thanks for all your work, it was a enjoyable league till now.
Quote from: Dub-c on February 03, 2010, 04:29 PM
p.s I dont want to sound disrespectful, thanks for all your work, it was a enjoyable league till now.
if one fail crushes whole system lmao...
I'm really sorry if you feel that way. There's nothing I can do about this game. However TUS has been perfecting itself since its creation. If people really want such rule, we can add it, make our mods more and mods will have to decide if the cow case was intentional or not, or even affect the game...
Im with dub. He my brother on this game and will stand by his choices in the world of worms. And i also think this is terrible judgement from the mods here to void this match. Uber said it prefectly aswell. Your not robots which enforce the rules as they are writen. Your ment to use the rules as a guide in deciding what is the fairest outcome of a complaint. Your ment to look at each indivudial game and circunstances and decide whetever or not a game should be voided or not.
I made a complaint about being repeated in a bng. The game stood even tho the rules were on my side. I ask you to do the same thing, disregard the rule book and use your common sense like you did in that case.
and is there ppl calling me the drama? lol
cmn guys, it mattr so much? -.-
Quote from: Chicken23 on February 03, 2010, 05:15 PM
Your ment to use the rules as a guide in deciding what is the fairest outcome of a complaint. Your ment to look at each indivudial game and circunstances and decide whetever or not a game should be voided or not.
I made a complaint about being repeated in a bng. The game stood even tho the rules were on my side. I ask you to do the same thing, disregard the rule book and use your common sense like you did in that case.
Yeah chicken23, we try to look at each game individually, that's why we didn't void that game because you tried to take advantage of the fact that someone added some lines to bng rules which we didn't know about (at least me) and NO ONE EVER played by. Unlike shopper where EVERYBODY plays with afr for years now and it's written in the rules from the beginning.
Well fb it was no afr. Nor was it a rule in xtc. But the debate isnt it should be in the rules or not. Its about has this cow effected the game. It hasnt. Cows happen in wxw's and ropers often too. Sometimes people forget to touch the wall at sudden death and spike down. It would of not changed the out come of the game and people let it slide. No one complains about it. The rules should be used to help sportsmanship, not promote bad sportsmanship which is the case if this game is voided. Its letting phantom avoid a loss which he clearly deserves.
lol are you mod guys f@#!ing serious? How could this incident be called a "cow"? It's a joke and a very cheap try to get rid of a loss.
I wouldn't skip either Dub, you did the right thing.
I'm also behind Dub.
If you let these kind of things happen, TUS will lose its credibility.
Voiding the game is a mystake.
I can`t watch any replay`s, sigh >:(
Quote from: Spaazi on February 03, 2010, 07:48 PM
I'm also behind Dub.
If you let these kind of things happen, TUS will lose its credibility.
Voiding the game is a mystake.
lol why? do not get ur point
There has been mentioned alot of good points 2 why, Beer..
THere is no disgrace in turning around and not voiding this game, Mods :)
lol beer, as usual you're not getting it.
Have you read the other posts before reading mine?
Quote from: Spaazi on February 03, 2010, 08:07 PM
lol beer, as usual you're not getting it.
Have you read the other posts before reading mine?
u usual are not much here, so are u?
yes, first then u
Quote from: Uber on February 03, 2010, 08:05 PM
There has been mentioned alot of good points 2 why, Beer..
THere is no disgrace in turning around and not voiding this game, Mods :)
looks like.
rules must be sovereign, for evryone. even for the mods.
sad to say, but im sure this thead would be diferent if it was with other player but not phanton.
Rules should not have to be the final say. A mod's choice is and he should judge what is fair. How a penetly or cow effected the game and use their experiences and sportsmanship in making the right choice. If the game is voided, its not fair against dub. The drill didnt effect the game, and as mentioned was more of a handicap on Dubc. Its a shame there isnt a set scheme on tus and the rules have not be defined since they were made when the league started. Phantom is probably not used to drills in shopper scheme and having unlimited zook. No one cares if you don't drill on a rope. It never changes the damage or the ease of the attack. As mentioned before. Its not like dub used no afr to his advantage if he was firing a bird or homing and making it easier for himself.
Mil2 was an example of a player who caused alot of problems with complaints and going by the rule book. But at xtc we at times did not follow the rules because of how lame and cheap mil2 was when it came to waiting to report wins to try and void loses by tricking players into late reports.
Sportsmanship and Integrity are important vitures of a worm player, and this is going against those values
MonkeyIsland and I had a long discussion about this, deciding whether we want to stick with the rules for every cost or allowing exceptions based on situations and our judgements. If you try to symphatize with MI, seeing how much effort it took him to make TUS what it is now, you can see that it's not an easy decision, trying to keep things in order and consistency and be fair at the same time. Still we all do wrong sometimes, so we reconsidered and took the sportmanship and common sense arguments into account, because as said so many times before, we do care what community thinks.
You proved us wrong. The game will stay as it is.
So we changed our mind. Don't let this thread make you think we'll do this everytime someone won't be happy with the decision, there are still rules to follow in general. But we will put some more common sense and thought into future decisions. Thanks.
V wise decision imo. And thats just how i want tus mod's 2 be.. U proved why u are mods :)
And im sure no1 will try 2 mess with the system just cause this game stands, they will find they only make a fool out of themselves! :)
Quote from: Chicken23 on February 03, 2010, 08:32 PM
Mil2 was an example of a player who caused alot of problems with complaints and going by the rule book. But at xtc we at times did not follow the rules because of how lame and cheap mil2 was when it came to waiting to report wins to try and void loses by tricking players into late reports.
LMAO :D That`s my Mir ;D You for sure can make me laugh, Tom! Good decision anyways mods, I didn`t know the discussion actually was about a simple drill.. People drill all the time without doing it from the rope, it`s not like you need to be a rocket scientist to figure out how to use the drill from the rope ???
Sorry, but i dont agree with this... you already made your decision so see this as just small addition to this discussion. I ll quote Chicken23 for now as his post is kinda representative to me of how things should not be handled^^.
Quote from: Chicken23Rules should not have to be the final say. A mod's choice is and he should judge what is fair. How a penetly or cow effected the game and use their experiences and sportsmanship in making the right choice.
Right in theory but didnt experiences told us that people's sportsmanship spirit is quite different? In my opinion rules are a necessary guideline that helps us not to rely on the in many cases non existant sportsmanship.
Quote from: Chicken23The drill didnt effect the game, and as mentioned was more of a handicap on Dubc.
Doesnt matter at all imo. A cow is a cow.
Quote from: Chicken23Its a shame there isnt a set scheme on tus and the rules have not be defined since they were made when the league started.
https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-141/ (https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-141/)
I wonder if it has to be any more clear. ::)
Well , i could go on like that but to sum it up, no matter if Dub-C was aware of he cowed or not, he did not attack from rope which is against the rules and he didnt take a penalty. And to pick up the argument that no1 will mess with the system due to this decision... doesnt have to happen but you should be aware that you opened the door a tiny gap to do so.
Ya chakk, peoples sportsmanship are different. Thats why we have these mods that we all can trust have good sportsmanship, and let them be the judges :)
Quote from: chakkman on February 03, 2010, 09:53 PM
Sorry, but i dont agree with this... you already made your decision so see this as just small addition to this discussion. I ll quote Chicken23 for now as his post is kinda representative to me of how things should not be handled^^.
Quote from: Chicken23Rules should not have to be the final say. A mod's choice is and he should judge what is fair. How a penetly or cow effected the game and use their experiences and sportsmanship in making the right choice.
Right in theory but didnt experiences told us that people's sportsmanship spirit is quite different? In my opinion rules are a necessary guideline that helps us not to rely on the in many cases non existant sportsmanship.
Quote from: Chicken23The drill didnt effect the game, and as mentioned was more of a handicap on Dubc.
Doesnt matter at all imo. A cow is a cow.
Quote from: Chicken23Its a shame there isnt a set scheme on tus and the rules have not be defined since they were made when the league started.
https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-141/ (https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-141/)
I wonder if it has to be any more clear. ::)
Well , i could go on like that but to sum it up, no matter if Dub-C was aware of he cowed or not, he did not attack from rope which is against the rules and he didnt take a penalty. And to pick up the argument that no1 will mess with the system due to this decision... doesnt have to happen but you should be aware that you opened the door a tiny gap to do so.
word chak,
as said, it had so many 'drama' into this cose was old player vs noob, otherwise the things woudl be diferent. its a shame in my eyes that most of ppl who posted into this, act like that. anyway its the reality
rofl beer. ur theories are really well considered.....
The thing is, i dont think any1 that has good values in this game or life at all would make a complain out of that, that beeing said; i dont have anything personal against Phanton at all. I just look at the case itself and state my opinion, as u do now. Only thing is u try 2 tell what every1 else means and thinks also..
I think u should stick 2 thinking for urself, not for the rest of us... :)
Quote from: Uber on February 04, 2010, 01:30 AM
rofl beer. ur theories are really well considered.....
The thing is, i dont think any1 that has good values in this game or life at all would make a complain out of that, that beeing said; i dont have anything personal against Phanton at all. I just look at the case itself and state my opinion, as u do now. Only thing is u try 2 tell what every1 else means and thinks also..
I think u should stick 2 thinking for urself, not for the rest of us... :)
thats what i think, and i was not realy talking about u, i agree with ur pont here, lol waste post by u.
anyway ill keep saying wtf i think about this game, about this league, if someone do not like can even make a poll to ban me or w/e.
easy
Quote from: Rok on February 03, 2010, 09:08 PM
MonkeyIsland and I had a long discussion about this, deciding whether we want to stick with the rules for every cost or allowing exceptions based on situations and our judgements. If you try to symphatize with MI, seeing how much effort it took him to make TUS what it is now, you can see that it's not an easy decision, trying to keep things in order and consistency and be fair at the same time. Still we all do wrong sometimes, so we reconsidered and took the sportmanship and common sense arguments into account, because as said so many times before, we do care what community thinks.
You proved us wrong. The game will stay as it is.
So we changed our mind. Don't let this thread make you think we'll do this everytime someone won't be happy with the decision, there are still rules to follow in general. But we will put some more common sense and thought into future decisions. Thanks.
Took a lot of balls from both of you to reverse your decision and I definitely respect that.
Actually you are right's, Dub and also took 8 hp, but if elepulasse the time I'm sure it will affect the game, he would win anyway ... but at the point of view, I think it was with fear or with PRSSA posivel a turning point in the game, I have made many games continue with this kind of cow, and really friends, I could take this complaint, but he called me stupid and said something about a Brazilian who has nothing to do with debate now Dub, if you want that as claimed victory, may be ... But here you challenge the best of 3 play with me, and really show you who the Phantom really ... when you quiserX: D :P
Quote from: Phanton on February 04, 2010, 09:15 PM
Actually you are right's, Dub and also took 8 hp, but if elepulasse the time I'm sure it will affect the game, he would win anyway ... but at the point of view, I think it was with fear or with PRSSA posivel a turning point in the game, I have made many games continue with this kind of cow, and really friends, I could take this complaint, but he called me stupid and said something about a Brazilian who has nothing to do with debate now Dub, if you want that as claimed victory, may be ... But here you challenge the best of 3 play with me, and really show you who the Phantom really ... when you quiserX: D :P
I'm sorry, I couldn't understand what you said. I definitely never called you any names if thats what you are saying. Are you saying you want to challenge me to a best of 3?
Well, to be honest I would have voided the game.
Making a cow without knowing even if it's the slightest is one thing.
Phantom could have forgiven it.
But he didn't, and it's his right as lame as it seems when someone make a cow it's your right to claim for a skip.
And dub-c attitude was just to ignore him.
Dub-c did a cow, he got noticed to skip by his opponant he refused and continued to play and the cheap player is phantom. Sorry, but I don't get it.
You do think that skipping would have affected the game too much for that little cow. I would want to say two things:
First, as for any scheme skipping does not imply loosing. He could have failed .. who knows
Secondly, if it's your fault (you made the cow) you've to pay the prize for it. That's all.
We say that 8 hp doesn't affect the game. But in my opinion it's not only 8 hp, it's a retreat time also to get an hide and i'm sorry when the goal is to kill a worms 8 hp is still 8 hp.So even if it's not huge it sure does.
Mods are there to apply rules on delicate case. They aren't there to change them whenever they want to.
Being sportmanship and act like that is not a rule as far I know. Reason with people when they complaint about meaningless thin is one thing mods can do.
If i'm following phantom thoughts dubc insulted him, and he speaks about making a special case for him about sportmanship.
I do respect both player but as I read before, by making this choice you're altering the rule and opening a hole to the system.
So if you stick to this point, you should change the actual rules :).
Edit: Thanks chakman lol ^^
Quote from: zippeurfou on February 05, 2010, 05:14 PM
Well, to be honest I would not have voided the game.
;)
Yeah right, TUS should stick to the rules 100%. So if I happen to accidantly knock a worm in a T17 by 1 pixel, I lose by default?
What's up with you guys.. You should go and play Mil2 league.
Quote from: darKz on February 05, 2010, 08:06 PM
Yeah right, TUS should stick to the rules 100%. So if I happen to accidantly knock a worm in a T17 by 1 pixel, I lose by default?
What's up with you guys.. You should go and play Mil2 league.
it should not be like that, but i skiped cose of a 1 pixel xD
<3 rene
We did not void the game, can you please not turn this into another spam topic?
@zippeurfou: nice post, +1, but MI and I took everything you said into account, along with all the consequences and still decided like we did.
Quote from: zippeurfou on February 05, 2010, 05:14 PM
And dub-c attitude was just to ignore him.
Dub-c did a cow, he got noticed to skip by his opponant he refused and continued to play and the cheap player is phantom. Sorry, but I don't get it.
If i'm following phantom thoughts dubc insulted him, and he speaks about making a special case for him about sportmanship.
You're just wrong on so many levels.
Quote from: darKz on February 05, 2010, 08:06 PM
Yeah right, TUS should stick to the rules 100%. So if I happen to accidantly knock a worm in a T17 by 1 pixel, I lose by default?
What's up with you guys.. You should go and play Mil2 league.
Dont have to look at it from your point of view only... you ll have to see theres ppl that would abuse a decision like this made by the mods. There is enough ppl who would do so :). And if we say now 8 hp damage is a tolerable limit for a rule violation now what will it be next time?
Quote from: Dub-c on February 05, 2010, 10:07 PM
Quote from: zippeurfou on February 05, 2010, 05:14 PM
And dub-c attitude was just to ignore him.
Dub-c did a cow, he got noticed to skip by his opponant he refused and continued to play and the cheap player is phantom. Sorry, but I don't get it.
If i'm following phantom thoughts dubc insulted him, and he speaks about making a special case for him about sportmanship.
You're just wrong on so many levels.
Actually, i'm trying to be not biased even if I know you a little and I know you're not the kind to do stupid complaint.And watching from the game comments you weren't insulting him in fact it was the opposite.
Well, let's not debate about this, it's my oppinion and since the mod have handle the game there's no point continuing the debate.
Quote from: Rok on February 05, 2010, 09:51 PM
We did not void the game, can you please not turn this into another spam topic?
@zippeurfou: nice post, +1, but MI and I took everything you said into account, along with all the consequences and still decided like we did.
Thanks, maybe an announcement would be welcome in order to restraint complaint like this anymore and stop the spamming here. :)
Quote from: beer on February 05, 2010, 08:08 PM
Quote from: darKz on February 05, 2010, 08:06 PM
Yeah right, TUS should stick to the rules 100%. So if I happen to accidantly knock a worm in a T17 by 1 pixel, I lose by default?
What's up with you guys.. You should go and play Mil2 league.
it should not be like that, but i skiped cose of a 1 pixel xD
<3 rene
I totally agree with you beer. It should not be like that because you loose part of the fun of the game. That's why rules has to change. But like chakkman said, mods has to be extremly cautious about it. :)
Thanks to all people who cared and helped us with their opinion.
*Solved.