2 new schemes for the leagues

[Lupastic]

May I suggest that surf shopper and fly shopper would be added to allround league? or at least to free league?

[TheKomodo]

May I suggest that surf shopper and fly shopper would be added to allround league? or at least to free league?

Aren't those just different map variants yet use the same scheme? The same way WXW allows W2W/W3W/W4W/etc.

At least that's what it was when I used to play them, they were all just the normal Shopper scheme with different maps.

[Lupastic]

May I suggest that surf shopper and fly shopper would be added to allround league? or at least to free league?

Aren't those just different map variants yet use the same scheme? The same way WXW allows W2W/W3W/W4W/etc.

At least that's what it was when I used to play them, they were all just the normal Shopper scheme with different maps.

well in surf shopper, as the name indicates, you gotta SURF first before attack, that only makes it totally different than the simple shopper scheme it requires more speed and skill, and obviously surf shoppa maps look totally different, as you said it.

same goes for fly shopper, there are some really difficult fly shoppa maps out there, and it's not that easy and simple as a shopper is. they both add something more unique than just picking up the crate and then attacking.

that's why I thought it worths a chance to ask for them to be enabled

[TheKomodo]

well in surf shopper, as the name indicates, you gotta SURF first before attack, that only makes it totally different than the simple shopper scheme it requires more speed and skill, and obviously surf shoppa maps look totally different, as you said it.

same goes for fly shopper, there are some really difficult fly shoppa maps out there, and it's not that easy and simple as a shopper is. they both add something more unique than just picking up the crate and then attacking.

that's why I thought it worths a chance to ask for them to be enabled

You have completely missed the point of what I said.

You posted with the title "2 new schemes for the leagues", and my point is, those are not new schemes, they are map variations, you play those maps with the normal shopper scheme.

Also, originally WXW, if i'm not mistaken, descended from Roper and Shopper, where after sudden death occured and crates didn't drop anymore in Roper, the rule "wall 2 wall" would initiate, meaning you have to touch both walls before attacking. Then W2W became it's own scheme.

Think of it like W2W being the original scheme, and map variants which include more walls add more challenge for the player, in the same sense that having to fly, or surf in shopper adds more challenge because the original maps were too easy for most skilled players.

So again, the point is they are the same scheme, using different maps.

[Lupastic]

well in surf shopper, as the name indicates, you gotta SURF first before attack, that only makes it totally different than the simple shopper scheme it requires more speed and skill, and obviously surf shoppa maps look totally different, as you said it.

same goes for fly shopper, there are some really difficult fly shoppa maps out there, and it's not that easy and simple as a shopper is. they both add something more unique than just picking up the crate and then attacking.

that's why I thought it worths a chance to ask for them to be enabled

You have completely missed the point of what I said.

You posted with the title "2 new schemes for the leagues", and my point is, those are not new schemes, they are map variations, you play those maps with the normal shopper scheme.

Also, originally WXW, if i'm not mistaken, descended from Roper and Shopper, where after sudden death occured and crates didn't drop anymore in Roper, the rule "wall 2 wall" would initiate, meaning you have to touch both walls before attacking. Then W2W became it's own scheme.

Think of it like W2W being the original scheme, and map variants which include more walls add more challenge for the player, in the same sense that having to fly, or surf in shopper adds more challenge because the original maps were too easy for most skilled players.

So again, the point is they are the same scheme, using different maps.

the scheme options are the same, and they are shopper variations indeed, but they are completely different from simple shopper. and for that, they could be added in my opinion

because when you are playing surf or fly shopper, you are not playing a shopper

[FoxHound]

Fly Shopper uses exactly the same Shopper scheme. Surf Shopper requires some TestStuff features, so the scheme is a bit different.

[TheKomodo]

I will answer FoxHound first since his is shorter:

Fly Shopper uses exactly the same Shopper scheme. Surf Shopper requires some TestStuff features, so the scheme is a bit different.

Yes, however before 3.8 weren't those commands you entered in the game lobby or needed wormkit for? Like they were not actually part of the scheme settings in the base game? So I didn't count that as being different because they still use the same scheme file? It has been a few years since I played Surf Shopper so I forget.

Like how with Darts and TTRR/Big RR etc we would type !rs or /rs for racingstuff.

the scheme options are the same, and they are shopper variations indeed, but they are completely different from simple shopper. and for that, they could be added in my opinion

Completely different? No, they share more similarities than how much they differ from each other, they are different in 3 ways:

Surf Shopper:

1. Depending on the design, the map design is generally open at the bottom, in which you need to hide appropriately away from danger as best as you can.

2. You need to learn how to skim your worm, though it's a simple technique a good roper should be able to learn within 1 game.

3. 1 Extra Rule - Surf before attack.

Fly Shopper:

1. Depending on the design, the map design is generally open at the top in which you need to hide appropriately away from danger as best as you can.

2. You need to learn how to throw your worm and judge distances though this is also a simple technique a good roper should also be able to learn within 1 game.

3. 1 Extra Rule - Fly before attack.

Both schemes have the exact same core gameplay and purpose, collect a crate and attack worms, hide as good as possible, use the weapon you collect as best as possible, and all variations of shopper maps have dangers due to open spaces and different types of hide.

Even with these 3 differences, other than learning 1 extra manoeuvre in each map variation, 2 in total for the 2 schemes we are discussing, generally speaking with all maps the roping is pretty much the same where you have lots of time to get around.

For a newbie, the 2 extra manoeuvres will present a risk to them which they will likely fail a lot, though to any skilled roper it's no more difficult than any other basic manoeuvre like spikes, shadows, outlaw, dragon, etc.

because when you are playing surf or fly shopper, you are not playing a shopper

Do you not realize all variations of Shopper maps are direct descendants and sub-genres of Shopper? Therefor they are still Shopper.

Notice they are called "Surf Shopper", and "Fly Shopper", and not just "Surf" or "Fly".

So yes, you are actually playing a Shopper, because it's the Shopper scheme you are using.


The point is, you can literally use those maps and play Shopper because those schemes use the "Shopper" scheme, and the "Shopper" scheme is technically part of the Allround league.

Surf Shopper and Fly Shopper are slightly more challenging than normal Shopper, though they use the same scheme.

The same can be said for WXW when using maps with W2W/W3W/W4W/W5W/W6W/etc which increase in complexity, and therefor skill.

The same can be said for TTRR maps and the difference in width/height between walls and floor to ceiling, though we don't call them "Tight TTRR" and "Wide TTRR"

The same can be said for Intermediate using Open Island maps and Cavern maps, though we don't call them "Open Intermediate" and "Cavern Intermediate".

The same can be said for Roper when using more complex maps increasing difficulty, though we don't call them "Complex Roper" and "Simple Roper".

The same can be said for Golf where different types of shots and angles are needed, though we don't call them "Advanced Trickshot Golf" and "Simple Direct Shot Golf"

The only real reason they added the technique into the map name, at least it's my belief, is for the longest time Shopper has been known as being an entry level scheme, so noobs can tell the difference of the maps and easily know they must follow the extra rule.

I am on your side here, why are you trying to make things complicated and argue with me when I am supporting you? 

They all use the same scheme, yet different maps.

Edit - Oops, I somehow soprano'd a sentence so had to go back and finish it lol. 

[Lupastic]

I will answer FoxHound first since his is shorter:

aww thanks Komi, this statement alone is enough for me to feel more... sexually superior

[FoxHound]

I will answer FoxHound first since his is shorter:

aww thanks Komi, this statement alone is enough for me to feel more... sexually superior

WTF lol hahaha


I do think Fly Shopper, WxW Shopper and Surf Shopper are not that simple variations. I think the gameplay changes significantly. So, for me they are more like original variants. Yes the scheme file is basically the same (although you needed to type /TS in surf Shopper and usually add infinite Bazooka to WxW).

I liked Komito's points comparing to "Cave intermediate" and "Island Intermediate". Intermediate can also be played in PNG maps which will alter the gameplay significantly. Maybe Intermediate could also be split in these map variations, but I don't think this is necessary.

I think Fly Shopper maps vary in gameplay too. There are some very difficult to fly maps and there are very easy to fly maps (the same way TTRR maps vary with the space between walls or the Roper map complexity). I mean, a simple Shopper variation for me would be a scheme with only AFR weapons, or different crate probabilities, less time, etc.  When you have a whole different kind of map to play a scheme, I do think it changes the gameplay significantly, like Pod Shopper and Chamber Shopper. However, a simple rule can change a scheme gameplay enough to be diferenciated from the original as a notable variant (Fly Shopper, WxW and Surf Shopper have different rules, so the gameplay changes are higher than Pod and Chamber Shopper). It is like comparing Atomic Chess or Antichess with normal Chess. All use the same same board, pieces and movements, but the gameplay and the tactics are different, because the rules are different. It is like cue sports variants, all are similar but different enough to be separated.

[Senator]

That extra rule of surf/fly before attack makes them different, no? Like walls before attack makes WxW different from Shopper.

[TheKomodo]

 

This time i'll quote Senator first because FoxHounds is bigger than Senators 

That extra rule of surf/fly before attack makes them different, no? Like walls before attack makes WxW different from Shopper.

No, because they actually have different schemes where weapons and crate probability differs, they might have other differences I honestly haven't checked though the fact they have different weapon probabilities and are balanced that way make them more different than the difference from shopper and fly shopper, to me anyway, not everyone will agree.

I do think Fly Shopper, WxW Shopper and Surf Shopper are not that simple variations. I think the gameplay changes significantly. So, for me they are more like original variants. Yes the scheme file is basically the same (although you needed to type /TS in surf Shopper and usually add infinite Bazooka to WxW).

I liked Komito's points comparing to "Cave intermediate" and "Island Intermediate". Intermediate can also be played in PNG maps which will alter the gameplay significantly. Maybe Intermediate could also be split in these map variations, but I don't think this is necessary.

I think Fly Shopper maps vary in gameplay too. There are some very difficult to fly maps and there are very easy to fly maps (the same way TTRR maps vary with the space between walls or the Roper map complexity). I mean, a simple Shopper variation for me would be a scheme with only AFR weapons, or different crate probabilities, less time, etc.  When you have a whole different kind of map to play a scheme, I do think it changes the gameplay significantly, like Pod Shopper and Chamber Shopper. However, a simple rule can change a scheme gameplay enough to be diferenciated from the original as a notable variant (Fly Shopper, WxW and Surf Shopper have different rules, so the gameplay changes are higher than Pod and Chamber Shopper). It is like comparing Atomic Chess or Antichess with normal Chess. All use the same same board, pieces and movements, but the gameplay and the tactics are different, because the rules are different. It is like cue sports variants, all are similar but different enough to be separated.

To put it simply, the only difference I see between Shopper and Fly Shopper / Surf Shopper is 1 extra manoeuvre, this isn't enough of a difference to be considered a different scheme, it's simply a manoeuvre with the ninja rope, that means it's a difference in roping style via 1 extra manoeuvre, not the actual core gameplay and tactics of the scheme itself. This being said, you could add anti-sink and /ts to normal shopper and it would pretty much be the same just a different type of map.

I don't know what Pod Shopper or Chamber Shopper is, though Bungee Shopper is obviously different because the mobility is a completely different utility.

And talking about map complexity changing gameplay significantly, even with normal shopper you can use very complex types of maps, I remember daina & lalo using maps like this and even more complex in clanners:





^^ Notice the lack of major plopholes, which you could compare to using anti-sink in Surf Shopper.

In normal Shoppers you can still do the fly manoeuvre often enough to save time or play more efficiently, actual Fly Shopper maps are like a slightly more intense version of what you can do in Shoppers because you don't have a choice with that manoeuvre, though i've seen people do a fly in normal Shoppers that are just as challenging as any Fly Shopper because of the lack of space.

As i've said, it becomes overall more challenging in dedicated Fly/Surf maps because it's mandatory, though they are still a basic simple manoeuvre for any decent Roper.

The extra manoeuvre for Fly Shopper and Surf Shopper, at least in my opinion, is not a significant enough addition to be label it as changing the gameplay significantly, it's just an extra ninja rope manoeuvre really, though Surf Shopper has a much more valid claim to be it's own thing because it literally has it's own scheme now thanks to 3.8.

Though I would argue that Surf Shopper is different because it actually needs a different scheme, also because of Anti-Sink making it impossible to plop enemy worms. I could counter that with stating that using Open Island / Cavern island maps in Intermediate, the tactics vary, and that's all the difference is between Surf Shopper and normal Shopper, the tactics vary a little bit although the core gameplay and tactics are the same. To elaborate an extra step on the Intermediate example, there are different weapons available to use in different ways, especially in Sudden Death. I am not opposed to making Surf Shopper a different scheme, well, because it actually is a different scheme due to anti-sink and ts being included with 3.8 you don't use the same scheme and type in commands anymore.

Fly Shopper though is literally the same thing to me with 1 extra manoeuvre.

Last but not least, there is a reason Shopper, Fly Shopper and Surf Shopper are considered simple entry level schemes before players get good enough to compete in Roper / WxW, then an even bigger step in skill towards Big RR & TTRR, especially when the difficulty limit is raised depending on the skill of your opponent because it's a race.

Anyway, it's fun to talk about! 

[FoxHound]

Yeah, Bungee Shopper, Mole Shopper, Parachute Shopper, etc Definitely are way different compared to normal Shopper. WxW, Fly and Surf are all Shopper variants, though. Some are more distinguished from the original than others, probably Surf is more than Fly. Even WxW is probably more different than Fly.

Pod Shopper is Shopper in which the terrain consists in isolated small spots (very, very ploppy maps). Chamber Shopper maps have usually vertical chambers separeted from each other due to walls. The only way to access other chamber is by reaching the top that is open.

It is not impossible to plop with Anti Sink. Specially with petrol bomb, flamethrower and some other weapons like minigun it is very easy to plop worms. The scheme may remove these weapons, though. Anti Sink has this teleport back mechanic that is different than a map with no plop holes. Boom for Weapons is a scheme that usually ends with a "plop twice in a row to win".

So, yes it is hard to say whether a scheme is a simple variation, an original variant or an original scheme. Very subjective analysis... I think about those things every time I see or edit Scheme ideas page.

[TheKomodo]

Interestingly enough lol, this page even goes into detail about subgenres of a subgenre:

https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/schemes/shopper-the-widest-explanation-ever-14228/

There are subgenres of Surf Shopper where you play a different Surf rule lol.

[Lupastic]

sooo ANYWAY, will we have fly shopper and surf shopper in the leagues as pickable schemes, or not?

[FoxHound]

I vote for a specific scheme designed for Fly and a specific scheme designed for Surf.