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Leagues => Leagues General => Topic started by: avirex on May 14, 2015, 09:38 PM

Poll
Question: After Sudden Death starts, should you w2w, cba, or have the option? (in the case a crate is still available)
Option 1: 1) When SD begins, w2w should be followed regardless.
Option 2: 2) When SD begins, if crates are available you must follow CBA.
Option 3: 3) When SD begins, If crates are available the player has the choice to CBA or w2w.
Title: CBA or w2w
Post by: avirex on May 14, 2015, 09:38 PM
if you have been following the other thread, feel free to vote...

please have a basic understanding of the pros/cons of everything, dont just vote because its fun to click your mouse, thnx.

Komo, if you'd like to compile the pros/cons for each side, and post here, feel free.. i know you like to do little tasks like this for the good of mankind! ;D  i would do it, but im feeling a bit too lazy atm.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: TheKomodo on May 14, 2015, 10:13 PM
Ok I will post what I feel is the best point from each side from the other thread.


In support of option 1:

Quote from: Ryan on May 13, 2015, 07:13 PM
I say option 1 - keep the meaning of sudden death - walls over crates (any hanging crates are merely a bonus)

In support of option 2:

Quote from: Anubis on May 13, 2015, 06:34 PM
I would go for #2. CBA over all is a very simple rule to follow.

It would be like: "You must collect a cr8 before you attack, if none is available you have to perform w2w instead."

You don't even have to mention SD because there will always be a cr8 when there's no SD for the player to collect. Easy, short intuitive rule.

In support of option 3:

Quote from: Senator on May 13, 2015, 10:20 PMImo it has to be 1 or 3. Number 2 can be unfair as avirex pointed out (opponent leaves a hard crate for you and SD begins)

Edit: Good thing about option 3 is that then you don't have to know the rule. You can make a guess at w2w/cba and it's always right ;D

I feel that option 2 can be unfair as avirex mentioned about your opponent leaving you a hard crate.

With option 1 I feel it can take away part of the risk/consequence for failing a turn, before SD if you fall your opponent has 2 crates they can collect they can choose to take either one or both, if option 1 was implemented it could potentially give the player who failed an extra chance I don't feel they deserve because the player has to w2w and think about collecting a crate too.

If you understand, agree or even realize that CBA is the most sacred rule of Roper and has been since WA began, and also understand, agree or even realize that w2w is purely a replacement for when there are no crates left to collect, what is there then left for anyone to assume w2w would take priority, except for personal preference?

So I voted for option 3, this way as long as the player does 1 or the other they aren't breaking the rules, they won't get forced to collect an evil crate because the other player made a mistake, and they should be able to take advantage of their opponents mistake.

Edit: I forgot to mention something important, although some people feel their choice is more logical than the others we can all agree each option is simple, fair and easy to understand, we are talking about a situation that very rarely happens, and when it does would only last 1 or 2 turns I imagine.

I should also point out that in the complaint that caused this to happen, MonkeyIsland ruled that CBA takes priority.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: Kangaroo on May 15, 2015, 12:10 AM
what scheme are you talking about about. roper ?   you need to be more clear for us hysteria c@#!s
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: TheKomodo on May 15, 2015, 12:22 AM
Lol good catch pizza, yeah, it's Roper.

avi, could you include this is for Roper in the vote/topic title please?
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: Lukz on May 15, 2015, 12:26 AM
u guys really enjoy this shit xD

both will be inactive (again) probably in some weeks, why u insist in to do changes in schemes? xD
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: TheKomodo on May 15, 2015, 12:35 AM
Quote from: Lukz on May 15, 2015, 12:26 AM
u guys really enjoy this shit xD

both will be inactive (again) probably in some weeks, why u insist in to do changes in schemes? xD

The rule for SD in Roper isn't worded properly right now, there is a loophole in the rule which caused a complaint recently which caused a pretty big debate in the last week.

When SD begins, if there are crates left some believe w2w has always had priority over CBA while others believe CBA has priority over w2w, so we are holding a vote to see which option people would prefer.

I should also point out that MonkeyIsland favoured that CBA takes priority in the complaint.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: Kangaroo on May 15, 2015, 01:02 AM
Quote from: Lukz on May 15, 2015, 12:26 AM
u guys really enjoy this shit xD

both will be inactive (again) probably in some weeks, why u insist in to do changes in schemes? xD

indeed, you should need to reach  PO before you opinion is valid.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: Senator on May 15, 2015, 07:31 AM
From old league sites:

WL: "If no crate falls: just attack. If no more crates fall because it's sudden death: touch both walls before attacking." = option 1 (except we would do w2w if no crate falls before SD)

XTC: "After SD arrives AND/OR there are no Health Crates to collect, you must touch both walls before attempting to attack or hide (known as W2W)." = option 2

The rule has indeed changed over years. In WL you had to follow cba only when a crate fell whereas in XTC you had to collect any remaining crate before following w2w. So we can safely choose any option. I voted for option 3 because I'm sure that many players don't know what to do in this rare situation (even as experienced player as avirex went for crate during SD in that complaint case). Option 1 is ok too.

Edit: The WL rule may just assume the map is empty of crates, it doesn't state clearly what happens if a crate is available :)
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: avirex on May 15, 2015, 11:22 AM
Yah, WL does not clearly state what to do if a crate is left, but I would assume if it was on the map it's legal, especially considering WL made it legal to have no obligations before attack if no crate falls, and SD was not officially announced.

I guess this officially throws everything rU said out the window...rU, maybe you should show those quotes to your oldschool Spanish friends who wish to remain anonymous ;)

Lukz, despite who enjoys a good debate, or not is completely irrelevant... TUS rules need to be updated to be more clear for everyone, which will result in less complaints

So if you'd like to say we love this, one could say you love complaints?

My point is, this is very much needed, and important.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: spleen17 on May 15, 2015, 11:55 AM
No. 3 will produce the least complaints (zero to be exact).
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: Ryan on May 15, 2015, 12:37 PM
WL's example is what I was familiar with (which makes sense given that it was my main experience of ropers) where it says if crates do not fall due to sudden death, hit both walls.

Under that premise, any crates lying there are up for grabs but you must bit both walls regardless. Apart from the odd first sentence, that is option 1.

I have to admit though, I didn't know the rules had changed - would be interesting to see what cl2k said.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: rU` on May 15, 2015, 12:42 PM
It's mostly avi and komo merely debating as usual, it got boring lol.
Quote from: rU` on May 13, 2015, 08:02 PM
If it's a backup plan,  Keep crates going, so that you don't need a backup plan. If CBA is so important for you guys, KEEP CRATES GOING. If CBA is more important for you, REMOVE SUDDEN DEATH.  Either keep sudden death with its right nature, or get rid from it. SD = remaining crates become a bonus.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: TheKomodo on May 15, 2015, 12:52 PM
Quote from: rU` on May 15, 2015, 12:42 PM
It's mostly avi and komo merely debating as usual, it got boring lol.

Me and avi were on the same side, and debating mainly against you and ryan, I hardly see how it was boring, even ryan stated he enjoyed the healthy debate, it was quite helpful.

Out of curiosity i'd like to see WACL/FB rules as well but don't know where to find them.

Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: Ryan on May 16, 2015, 11:42 PM
Poll results are in - ready to instate option 1 into the rules?
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: TheKomodo on May 16, 2015, 11:44 PM
Quote from: Ryan on May 16, 2015, 11:42 PM
Poll results are in - ready to instate option 1 into the rules?

The votes only been up for 3 days and only 17 people have voted, I wouldn't consider that finished or fair enough yet, I guess we wait longer.

Edit - Just wondering actually, do we even have permission to update the rules like this? Or does MI need to put up an official vote on main page or something?
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: Ryan on May 17, 2015, 12:20 AM
We could just wait until option 3 wins
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: TheKomodo on May 17, 2015, 12:28 AM
Quote from: Ryan on May 17, 2015, 12:20 AM
We could just wait until option 3 wins

Obviously i'd like that however I could say the same thing about you trying to quit while you're ahead ;)

We all have to be fair here, if this is taken seriously I will happily accept any option :)
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: avirex on May 17, 2015, 03:35 AM
Quote from: Ryan on May 15, 2015, 12:37 PM
WL's example is what I was familiar with (which makes sense given that it was my main experience of ropers) where it says if crates do not fall due to sudden death, hit both walls.

Under that premise, any crates lying there are up for grabs but you must bit both walls regardless. Apart from the odd first sentence, that is option 1.

I have to admit though, I didn't know the rules had changed - would be interesting to see what cl2k said.

ryan, the WL rule says exactly what we all know..  "if cr8s dont fall due to sudden death, then you w2w" we all know that... but what we are discussing is what to do if there is a crate still available after sudden death starts.

just like senator said
QuoteThe WL rule may just assume the map is empty of crates, it doesn't state clearly what happens if a crate is available

anyway... the poll has a 1 vote difference, should be a blow out one way or the other, and if not MI would step and and make a final decision..

i think option 3 is the best, because it will cause less confusion for everyone, and less complaints like someone has mentioned... and that is not an opinion, that is a fact.

the people who like option 1 are basing it off opinions and personal preference, which is fine if thats how some people want to vote, but i would encourage people to keep in mind that the main purpose of making the rules more clear, is to eliminate a lot of unnecessary  complaints.

edit: Komo, to answer your question, if we have the right to change the rules, i believe senator now has the ability to do that  (seems he changed the "block" rule, and the "glitch" rule.  so, i assume he hes got the powa!

oh and rU, you think this debate is getting boring now?? do your old school spanish buddies who want to maintain their anonymity think its boring too? hahha i cant get enough of that joke :D u crack me up dude.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: Ryan on May 17, 2015, 08:24 AM
The people who are voting for 3 are basing it on opinion too - it is the whole point of a vote.

If there were any facts involved, we wouldn't be voting; and if we were, it wouldn't be this close.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: rU` on May 17, 2015, 09:32 AM
Quote from: avirex on May 17, 2015, 03:35 AM
the people who like option 1 are basing it off opinions and personal preference, which is fine if thats how some people want to vote, but i would encourage people to keep in mind that the main purpose of making the rules more clear, is to eliminate a lot of unnecessary  complaints.
How isnt it clear that you gotta wall to wall once the cr8s stop dropping? The rule couldn't be clearer,  it's been explained thousand times.  How would that cause complaints?  The only one who made a big fuss out of it was you, as you took every little loophole in order to manage to attack in a roper match. Dont pretend to be a fool avi in order for your own benefits. You really know what's the real rule: which is option #1. Surprised though you only got 6 buddies to vote for you lol.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: Senator on May 17, 2015, 09:55 AM
@Ryan & Komito, WACL (http://web.archive.org/web/20010125013800/http://wa-forum.com/waclfiles.htm), Cl2k (http://web.archive.org/web/20050503021033/http://www.cl2k.org/rules.html) and FB (http://web.archive.org/web/20050227173332/http://www.laene.nl/fb/index.php?p=rules) don't state anything about SD/w2w (the most recent rule sites are not archived, though. AL rules site not archived either).

Quote from: rU` on May 17, 2015, 09:32 AM
How isnt it clear that you gotta wall to wall once the cr8s stop dropping? The rule couldn't be clearer,  it's been explained thousand times.  How would that cause complaints?

"How would that cause complaints?" Easily. We have it in black and white that XTC league used option 2. So if we go with option 1, people who are familiar with the XTC rule may break the rule unintentionally. Just like Ryan wasn't aware of the XTC rule.

"You really know what's the real rule: which is option #1" Currently you are allowed to do CBA during SD (see MI's post in that complaint thread), which means option 2 or 3 ;)
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: Tomi on May 17, 2015, 11:01 AM
Wtf, are you preparing yourselves for a lawyer career? :D You are discussing about a thing that may have never caused any trouble at all. I have played about 500 roper games but i don't remember that such a thing caused any misunderstanding. Because if there is a crate then go for it.. so easy
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: TheKomodo on May 17, 2015, 11:03 AM
Quote from: Ryan on May 17, 2015, 08:24 AMIf there were any facts involved, we wouldn't be voting; and if we were, it wouldn't be this close.

You want facts, ok then:

WACL, Cl2k and FB as we now know did not have a rule stating what to do in this situation. (Fact)

In WL, you must w2w as soon as SD has began. (Fact)

XTC and TuS, CBA takes priority over w2w in SD if there are crates left. (Fact)

Those are all the main Leagues we've had for WA, there are 2 Leagues stating CBA takes priority, and only 1 stating w2w takes priority. (Fact)

WACL and Cl2k, being the 2 oldest Leagues that were used when WA began, didn't have a rule about this situation, players were left to make this decision for themselves, which means Ryan and rU is wrong about it "always being w2w" and myself and avirex are wrong about it "always being CBA".  (Fact)

So if you are to vote based on facts and history, the logical choice would be option 2.  (Fact)

However the most optimum choice would be option 3, no one would ever break the rule in a panic because either way is correct. (Theory)

Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: Ryan on May 17, 2015, 11:17 AM
All those "facts" tell us nothing about what the rules should be.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: rU` on May 17, 2015, 11:35 AM
Those facts tell nothing indeed. Xtc was kinda a joke too. Tus was born out of the chaos from xtc. Don't pick it as an example. That league didn't even last for long. People didn't have time enough to get familiar with it. Bet you most players here didn't even play that league. I would take FB and WL as better examples.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: avirex on May 17, 2015, 12:41 PM
WL: "If no crate falls: just attack. If no more crates fall because it's sudden death: touch both walls before attacking." = option 1 (except we would do w2w if no crate falls before SD)

komo, WL does not state to w2w when SD starts.... dont say this was a fact, its not true...

WL states if no more crates fall because its sudden death, then you touch both walls... it does NOT say what to do in the situation that a cr8 was left on the map when SD starts.

have we all got lost so deep into who is right, and who is wrong that we forgot what we are even debating?

we are discussing what to do in the situation that a cr8 is left behind when SD starts... we all know to CBA before SD, and we all know to w2w after cr8s stop falling.... but what we need to make clear is what to do when a cr8 is left behind and SD starts.


ryan i said

Quotei think option 3 is the best, because it will cause less confusion for everyone, and less complaints like someone has mentioned... and that is not an opinion, that is a fact.

maybe the bit where i said "i think option 3 is the best" made your head spin.. let me clarify this for you... that one statement IS an opinion, my expressing what i think is best IS an opinion.

Quotebecause it will cause less confusion for everyone, and less complaints
that is the fact.

nobody can dispute that... NO ONE.

if there is cr8 grab them b4 attack, if sudden death starts and there is cr8s, you get a choice.... if there are no cr8s, you w2w.... THAT LEAVES NO ROOM FOR MISSUNDERSTANDING, OR COMPLAINTS.

the current mods now need to step in, and decide which rule should be implemented, and then we leave it at that.

because its pretty clear the vote is not working out, it should be blow out decision, not a 3 vote lead with a very minimal amount of votes to begin with..


rU: everything you say has been humorous, you keep saying that i did something on purpose, or i know the rules, im just trying to change then to fit my needs... have you read anything in this thread dude?? majority of past leagues all said CBA is KING... even w2dinfo said CBA is KING... MonkeyIsland too said, CBA is KING...

but here you are with xta means nothing, my old school spanish friends didnt even play xtc, they never even heard of xtc, i e-mailed them, and they told me xtc did not mean anything to them!

or
QuoteHow isnt it clear that you gotta wall to wall once the cr8s stop dropping? The rule couldn't be clearer,  it's been explained thousand times.  How would that cause complaints?  The only one who made a big fuss out of it was you, as you took every little loophole in order to manage to attack in a roper match. Dont pretend to be a fool avi in order for your own benefits. You really know what's the real rule: which is option #1. Surprised though you only got 6 buddies to vote for you lol.
your a clown... go back and read the thread.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: avirex on May 17, 2015, 01:07 PM
before people come here yelling about how option 1 is leading the poll, and if option 3 was leading, the poll would have been closed on the first day, or whatever else was said...

let me make something clear, i think some people are failing to remember.

when we are updating the rules, we are taking the rules, and making them more clear, and leaving little to no room to miss-interprate them, keep in mind we are basing off the current TUS rules, we are just trying to eliminate any loop-holes.

Senator i believe has the power to do this-

However, if he wants to change rules completely, i believe this has to go through the big boss first (MI) and he should/would get the final decision.

current TUS rules (as the recent complaint showed) that cba is the standard, regardless if it is sudden death or not... this means, if a crate is left behind you must collect that crate...

option 3 is trying to be fair to everyone, and give options, but regardless, its still a rule change(not just making the current TUS rule more clear), and there for MI needs to accept it.

option 1 as well is a complete rule change, and MI needs to accept it.

thats why i said
Quotethe current mods now need to step in, and decide which rule should be implemented, and then we leave it at that.

i just wanted to make that very clear, before i had someone bitching at me "well if option 3 was leading in the poll......"
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: Ryan on May 17, 2015, 01:56 PM
Whichever option is implemented, as long as it is well written there will be no room for miss-understanding.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: avirex on May 17, 2015, 02:08 PM
well, you got me there... i cant argue that.


but, not everybody is going to read every rule, for every scheme...  we want to make the rule well written, so there is no miss-understanding, while still trying to keep them nice and simple.

does not get any more simple then having the option of what to do, either CBA or w2w, when your presented with an uncommon situation.

anyways, we can all go back and forth for ever, and seems like that is just what we will do if MI does not step in ;) the first couple pages of the debate was good, and healthy.. but now its just becoming monotonous. there is no one side that is completely dominating the votes, especially if you take into consideration that main people following this thread have all agreed on one thing.. option 2 really is not fair... so if you counted option 2: you MUST collect cr8, as option 3 votes, there is no clear 'winner' of this poll..

i think at this point its best we just let MI come here and make a final decision, so we can move on to other topics, i already have our next debate in mind ;)


penalties/skips: what exactly is allowed, and whats not allowed... ie: can you get your cr8?? can you knock worms?? can you knock worms for FD? can you knock worms into a pile, or into a barrel? can you do anything you want as long as you do not attack?? or must you just skip??

the current TUS rules (according to a recent complaint) says that you can do knocks, you can deal FD damage, you can pile worms, you can knock  worms to barrels on your skip turn, but you can not attack... i dont think that is fair, and i think we need to discuss it... but lets get a final answer on this, so we can move on.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: TheKomodo on May 17, 2015, 02:32 PM
Quote from: Ryan on May 17, 2015, 11:17 AM
All those "facts" tell us nothing about what the rules should be.

Who said the facts determine what the rule should be? Having facts help to make a choice though.

Quote from: Ryan on May 17, 2015, 08:24 AMIf there were any facts involved, we wouldn't be voting; and if we were, it wouldn't be this close.

There are facts.

Notice the part I underlined? I assume you would like facts to be in favour that history shows w2w takes priority over CBA when actually the facts favour against you, if you were 100% aware that for the majority of time CBA was favoured, would you still have the same opinion? As it seems you would pick the rule you are used to most, the one you believed for so long.

Quote from: rU` on May 17, 2015, 09:32 AMHow isnt it clear that you gotta wall to wall once the cr8s stop dropping? The rule couldn't be clearer,  it's been explained thousand times.  How would that cause complaints?

We've already explained this to you several times with facts and logic, if you choose to ignore what we say then you will have to live on in the darkess of this knowledge.

Quote from: rU` on May 17, 2015, 11:35 AM
Those facts tell nothing indeed. Xtc was kinda a joke too. Tus was born out of the chaos from xtc. Don't pick it as an example. That league didn't even last for long. People didn't have time enough to get familiar with it. Bet you most players here didn't even play that league. I would take FB and WL as better examples.

The facts tell nothing? Are you 100% sure? Would you bet your life on that?

The facts tell us that we were all wrong about the SD rule in early Leagues of WA. (This is another fact btw ;) )

The facts tell us that official rules up until now have favoured the CBA rule. (Which makes sense as CBA is the most sacred rule of Roper)

Based on the words you used to describe your opinion and I quote:

Quote from: rU`You guys question things that have been clear for more than a decade. When the gong sounds,  you have to w2w no matter how many crates there are in the map lol. You do wall to wall, if there is even a gift of health around, good for you.

Quote from: rU`I know Komo,  makes sense but Roper rules need to be cleared up then, as people seem to forget what they always been like (or am I the only one who thinks like this?) , maybe in order to find a loophole to their advantage.  Once sudden death is on, wall to wall should take precedence over cba.

Quote from: rU`alright I've spoken to some wormers, retired and not retired. Things happens to be like this:

Since some time ago, CBA took precedence over w2w if sudden death comes and there are still crates around.

Retired wormers told me that W2W always took precedence over cba, as they aren't aware of what's been happening in the past years.

Quote from: rU` on May 13, 2015, 11:13 AM
The rules always were that you have to touch both walls, once there's no more crate spawns.

You, also, favour the option you thought was true to history, and if your vote was dependant on this, then I imagine you would vote for option 2.

Also, your opinion regarding what examples to use are not worthy enough, you do not get to decide what is good and what is bad, I also didn't have much love for XTC however it was still one of WAs main Leagues for a while and the best players at the time participated, that alone is enough reason to use it as an example, facts are facts regardless of opinion.


Quote from: avirex on May 17, 2015, 12:41 PM
WL: "If no crate falls: just attack. If no more crates fall because it's sudden death: touch both walls before attacking." = option 1 (except we would do w2w if no crate falls before SD)

komo, WL does not state to w2w when SD starts.... dont say this was a fact, its not true...

WL states if no more crates fall because its sudden death, then you touch both walls... it does NOT say what to do in the situation that a cr8 was left on the map when SD starts.

Actually it does, but still this rule is very stupid and I will explain why:

QuoteIf no more crates fall because it's sudden death: touch both walls before attacking.

This means a crate must fall for CBA to be implemented.

QuoteIf no crate falls: just attack.

This is the stupid part, this means the turn before SD, where there is no crate and SD hasn't officially been declared, you can attack however you wish, w2w isn't required here.







Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: rU` on May 17, 2015, 02:51 PM
Sudden death always had its nature, which is touching both walls. A new skill takes in action. Game changes in another direction.

Crates that are still in the map are NOT part of sudden deaths nature. They come inherited from a style which no longer belongs to the current games style.

If the gong doesn't sound and crates stop dropping, it's a game flaw I guess. But no crate dropped, then you know sudden death is there.

Crates, and whatever else, go as a background activity. You may or may not grab whatever is floating in the map. There is no gap for misunderstanding in here. 0% doubt. Sudden death has come baby, you know what's the new direction of the game. And if you don't, you're simply blind, or pretend to be dumb.

Still avi thinks what he says is what the other 72,77% will agree. You're full of yourself and definitely the only clown here.


You can always REMOVE sudden death, if you're not going to treat it purely at its 100% from the begining.
Again, there is no gap for misunderstandings.


Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: TheKomodo on May 17, 2015, 05:16 PM
Quote from: rU` on May 17, 2015, 02:51 PM
Sudden death always had its nature, which is touching both walls. A new skill takes in action. Game changes in another direction.

Crates that are still in the map are NOT part of sudden deaths nature. They come inherited from a style which no longer belongs to the current games style.

Ok I can only assume by now you are trolling.

Please try to follow this carefully...

Rules are man-made, it isn't your choice what happens when sudden death is initiated, it's up to the rules of the League you are playing.

If there are no rules to support this situation, then you have no say in this matter, you can only speculate your opinion.

2 out of 3 Leagues which DO have a solution to this situation support CBA, the other supporting w2w.

As I have already explained, CBA is the most sacred rule of Roper, CBA is the foundation upon which this scheme is based, it is the most logical course of action to take if there were no rules to collect the crate then attack.

How can you possibly even think to w2w before CBA if there are still crates left?

I would like to point out that both you and Ryan firstly believed the rules were always w2w is priority, when you discovered this to be false you quickly changed your arguement from "that's how it's always been" to "that's how it should be", I personally see that as desperation, while myself and avirex have stuck with our 1st point since the beginning that CBA whenever crates are available is the most logical thing to do because it's the most important rule.

I just thought of another reason why option 1 is a terrible choice:

If at any other point in the game your opponent fails to collect their crate for whatever reason, you can collect your crate, their crate or both crates then attack, you have a choice, if this situation happens because your opponent failed and the crate lands in a position where you cannot w2w AND collect the crate before attacking, it is completely unfair that you be allowed that chance to collect the crate, it's an outrage actually, you should be given the choice just as you are before SD.

And actually, since I realized that, I cannot accept option 1, I will never accept option 1.

The fairest option that will save complaints is 3, that's another fact for you.


Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: rU` on May 17, 2015, 05:30 PM
Quote from: Komito on May 17, 2015, 05:16 PM
Quote from: rU` on May 17, 2015, 02:51 PM
Sudden death always had its nature, which is touching both walls. A new skill takes in action. Game changes in another direction.

Crates that are still in the map are NOT part of sudden deaths nature. They come inherited from a style which no longer belongs to the current games style.



CBA is the most sacred rule of Roper, CBA is the foundation upon which this scheme is based

Remove SD then, mate. Things are clear by now. No more talk is needed ;)
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: rU` on May 17, 2015, 06:20 PM
I missed this part:
Quote from: Komito on May 17, 2015, 05:16 PMIf at any other point in the game your opponent fails to collect their crate for whatever reason, you can collect your crate, their crate or both crates then attack, you have a choice, if this situation happens because your opponent failed and the crate lands in a position where you cannot w2w AND collect the crate before attacking, it is completely unfair that you be allowed that chance to collect the crate

Your duty is to w2w and attack now. If you manage to w2w and attack but fail to get the bonus crate, your opponent is probably going to be in the same condition in his next turn. (You are clearly talking about being in the same side of the map) You can either grab crate and don't attack. Or just attack (if you obviously manage to w2w) which is going to be more rewarding than grabbing a crate and not attacking. Anyways, your suggestion is more of a matter regarding maps design, lol

There is no room for complaints with option #1, unless you're avi.

Quote from: Komito on May 17, 2015, 05:16 PM
Ok I can only assume by now you are trolling.
Geez some people can't be reasonable with.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: TheKomodo on May 17, 2015, 08:17 PM
Quote from: rU` on May 17, 2015, 06:20 PMThere is no room for complaints with option #1, unless you're avi.

I just perfectly explained the serious flaw with option 1, your counter is invalid as it doesn't change the fact it's unfair in the 1st place and shouldn't be like that, you are desperately grasping at straws now, I really want to stop replying lol, but I can't help it everytime you reply I feel obligated to correct you...

It really does feel like you are trolling, especially with the poor counter arguements you keep bringing.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: MonkeyIsland on May 17, 2015, 08:29 PM
So we're talking over a rare situation in Roper?

First off, the poll is wrong. First option is not clear enough for all members. Some members (non-English speakers) don't know what "regardless" mean. (it should be: y u no w2w or yes w2w?)
Second, not only I didn't approve of such poll, but also we don't need such poll. This is a rare situation. There shouldn't be polls about rare situations. (I've never experienced that myself either or I may have and ignored it)

I've already said my opinion. W2W is a replacement for CBA.

Before the gong sound, if there are crates available to collect on the map, the player should CBA, otherwise w2w rule applies. (this also covers up that one crate-less turn before SD)
After the gong sound, if there are crates available to collect on the map, the player has a choice to either collect the crate or do w2w.


and finally, for the sake of argument. I do agree with rU and Ryan. Their point of view also makes sense. To me it is just two flavors over a rare situation and I'm leaning a bit more towards option #3.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: avirex on May 17, 2015, 09:39 PM
ok, since when do we have to say "dear master monkey island, do i have your permission to make a poll?"

and if you dont think we need such poll, then i just dont know what to do anymore, last week you approved of the idea of updating the rules, this week your saying we dont need it???

i guess you like the complaints forum? you obviously like rules to vague, that nobody really knows what the f@#! to do.

i give up, i really do... f@#! the rules, lets leave them how they are...

cr8 before attack, w2w at sd, no blocking, hf... thats about what they are, so f@#! it, lets leave em alone then.


i agree with some things ryan and rU are saying too... like the fact that when sudden death starts, its time to w2w... i agree, but thats as simple as saying when roper starts its time to CBA.

anyway, i guess this argument is over, im glad we cleared this up, and we now know MonkeyIsland is leaning towards option 3... BUT LETS NOT UPDATE THE RULES, we will just reference this thread next time a similar complaint comes up, thats good thinking.


i seriously give up... its f@#!ing useless to try and help better TUS in any way, MonkeyIsland wants it his way, even if that way is right, or proven to suck ass... so, f@#! it...keep the rules the way they are, and enjoy having more complaints per week, then you can clearly handle.


edit: the only thing in the rules that should be changed is "when the gong sounds"  i think its very important to implement that into the rules in one way, or another
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: TheKomodo on May 17, 2015, 10:11 PM
We started this debate so nicely as well  ;D
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: spleen17 on May 17, 2015, 10:40 PM
Love this thread :D Hilarious
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: MonkeyIsland on May 18, 2015, 05:04 AM
I never said anything against debating. In fact I read the entire thread. If all members strongly had same opinion on option #1, I would have overrule myself. As I said, this is a rare situation and doesn't really need that much attention. Opinions are not the same either.

Polls have potential to make misunderstandings. Many members see it and they think if one option has higher votes, it will be implemented. It kinda happened in this thread too.

@avirex,
I appreciate the effort. (anybody who bothers to share their opinion)
Senator gotta update the rules. If you had some extra time, please chill :)
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: Senator on May 18, 2015, 10:11 AM
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on May 17, 2015, 08:29 PM
Before the gong sound, if there are crates available to collect on the map, the player should CBA, otherwise w2w rule applies. (this also covers up that one crate-less turn before SD)

This actually makes sense. Imagine you minimize the game at the opponent's turn and return to the game when your turn starts. There is one crate on the map but you don't know if it dropped for u or if the opponent left it for u. Therefore cba should always be followed, also when no crate drops before SD.

Quote from: MonkeyIsland on May 17, 2015, 08:29 PM
After the gong sound, if there are crates available to collect on the map, the player has a choice to either collect the crate or do w2w.

What bugs me here is that u can't choose between cba/w2w before SD if no crate drops but at SD you can. Why would SD give you more options what to do? When I voted for option 3, I thought it would be possible to apply that rule also before SD when no crate drops. Now I think option 1 or 2 would make more sense :) But option 3 still means no one can break the rule..
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: TheKomodo on May 18, 2015, 11:18 AM
Quote from: Senator on May 18, 2015, 10:11 AM
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on May 17, 2015, 08:29 PM
After the gong sound, if there are crates available to collect on the map, the player has a choice to either collect the crate or do w2w.

What bugs me here is that u can't choose between cba/w2w before SD if no crate drops but at SD you can. Why would SD give you more options what to do? When I voted for option 3, I thought it would be possible to apply that rule also before SD when no crate drops. Now I think option 1 or 2 would make more sense :) But option 3 still means no one can break the rule..

I think the reason you must CBA before the gong sound is because it isn't officially SD yet, the gong officially declares SD, and w2w is an SD rule so I agree with this.

I don't know why there is 1 turn sometimes without crates or gong sound, but I personally consider that a warning that the next turn SD will be officially declared.

Speaking about that 1 turn with no crates and no SD yet, is that a bug or what? I've never understood that...
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: avirex on May 18, 2015, 01:30 PM
MI: your post bothered me, we been discussing this for a couple of days, for the most part, all remaining respectful.

then you come here and say "i did not approve of this poll" (as if we need to ask your permission to make polls now) and then you say "also we dont need the poll" (as if this problem has absolutely no chance of ever occurring again) 


Here's my thoughts, and goals with this entire "update the rules" project.

When complaints come in, with unique situations, no matter how rare they are, if they have an opportunity to repeat them selves, we need to make the rules more clear... this will do 2 things: 1)let everyone know exactly what he can or can not do, when this situations happens in their game, and 2) it will no doubt lead to less complaints at the end of the day.

So, as i said, my real goal is to limit the complaints, and make a clear, and professional set of rules for everyone to follow.

i know some wise-ass will come here and say "this is worms, its just a game, we dont need professional rules"  but yes we do, everyone who plays worms, and loves the games at one point in time takes it very seriously, and appreciates clear rules, and wants clear, and professional rules.. TUS is a professional website, but its lacking in some areas.. the number one area its lacking is its rules, and its been lacking the rules for quite some time...

now you have a team of people that are committed, and want to take the time to discuss, and implement proper rules (senator, komito, spleen, myself, ryan, and im not sure if rU is seriously interested, or he was just trolling)  ((sorry if i missed anyone))

and instead of respecting the people that are taking time out of their day to help TUS, and the rule book you say.

Quotenot only I didn't approve of such poll, but also we don't need such poll. This is a rare situation. There shouldn't be polls about rare situations.

i understand your point, that polls give miss guided information, and some people vote just with which vote is in the lead, without understanding all sides of the debate, or some people just vote because they want to be a part of something, or like to click their mouse..

but saying you did not give us permission, and its not needed was a slap in the face after we been trying to do something to make TUS a better place.

Quote@avirex,
I appreciate the effort. (anybody who bothers to share their opinion)
your welcome
QuoteSenator gotta update the rules. If you had some extra time, please chill
your first post seemed to be a slap in the face, your most recent post was a bit better, and now i am chill...  but i do not understand what this means "senator gotta update the rules. If you had some extra time"
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: MonkeyIsland on May 18, 2015, 05:07 PM
The problem with polls is if they get out of hand, they'll lose their importance. That's why I avoid making polls unless they are important.
There's no slapping in my post. At least I didn't mean it to sound like.

Quote from: avirex on May 17, 2015, 09:39 PM
edit: the only thing in the rules that should be changed is "when the gong sounds"  i think its very important to implement that into the rules in one way, or another

and I said Senator has the power to update.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: avirex on May 18, 2015, 05:36 PM
ok MI... i get that sometimes the polls get out of hand..

thats why you should appoint a select group to discuss things, and decide what happens (if the select few cant decide, then you can make final decision)

or do you just want senator to handle it?? and update the rules how he thinks they should be?? because that just wont work... whoever released the rules when they uploaded the scheme, worded it poorly, senator added a couple rules (blocks and glitches) and he worded those poorly.

and it was not fault of the original uploader, or senator, and im not trying to attack sen. in anyway, but sometimes a group of people can put their minds together and come up with one solid solution, rather then one person trying to handle a task that is 6 years old and out of control... its kind of like when president bush f@#!ed up America, it was damn impossible for any one person to come in, and try to fix it... the country needed/needs a strong team to fix things.

im just trying to understand what it is you think needs to be done??

a) senator update a couple of things to make the current rules more clear? but things like what to do when SD starts, and crates are available are not important to discuss, or add to the rules.

b) a group of TUS members discuss the changes that need to be made, and the proper way to word them. also when complaints come in, decide how the rules can be worded properly, so the complaints are not repeated in the future?...

c) none of the above (in which case i hope you explain what you think needs to be done.)


Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: Anubis on May 18, 2015, 06:15 PM
I think you guys blew this rule out of proportion. You made this minor rule loophole a huge behemoth with a poll when the best solution was to just update the current rule to be easy to understand. I was trying to help as well, but once I saw that it was just arguing over opinions I left the building, progress is done by doing not by talking. This rule does not need change, it works in all 3 approaches fine and fair so all it needed was an update of wording. :)
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: nino on May 18, 2015, 07:54 PM
Between CANT BE ARSED or w2w i preffer shoppa!!!!
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: MonkeyIsland on May 19, 2015, 05:10 AM
avirex, the debating is fine. I meant Senator can update the rules without contacting me.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: TheKomodo on May 19, 2015, 07:05 AM
By the way, Senator are you a newer player or did you have another name before? I never heard or seen you until 1-2 months ago, same goes for a lot of people now lol.
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: Senator on May 19, 2015, 09:43 AM
Quote from: Komito on May 19, 2015, 07:05 AM
By the way, Senator are you a newer player or did you have another name before? I never heard or seen you until 1-2 months ago, same goes for a lot of people now lol.

I played wwp around 2001-2003? under nicks Senator & OnCle (also WA for a short time before I quitted worms). I was in the same clan with Crazy (wwPd) and I also founded a clan called DoH (Drops on Head). From TUS members I remember Crazy, fada, voltage, Husk, noam... I also remember that I played a lot of RRs with BENSERV. I registered at TUS in 2008 but played mostly FNI tourneys around 2008-2010 (under nick Rantsi). Then I quitted again but came back in 2013 and have played TUS since that :)

Quote from: Crazy on August 28, 2013, 11:45 PM
I was in wwPd as well with Senator, i think the clan is older then ten years.. DJKris was our leader, we had Prodigy, AIF, Brux, RopeR and some more members. We had a tough time playing against clans like dwi, mash, hos, eq, susuii, iwc, ckc, top, we lost all games that we played. Literally, all games ::) But yea, nice to see him back again, he's a really nice guy like you said avi
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: avirex on May 19, 2015, 04:08 PM
Quote from: Anubis on May 18, 2015, 06:15 PM
I think you guys blew this rule out of proportion. You made this minor rule loophole a huge behemoth with a poll when the best solution was to just update the current rule to be easy to understand. I was trying to help as well, but once I saw that it was just arguing over opinions I left the building, progress is done by doing not by talking. This rule does not need change, it works in all 3 approaches fine and fair so all it needed was an update of wording. :)


its only you opinion that we blew it out of proportion. the people who got involved are all passionate about W:A, and want to make clear rules for everyone... you got involved too, but when you seen it was not going to be a quick, easy, right to the point debate, you backed off... im guessing because you are no longer as passionate about W:A as we are... if this debate was WOW, maybe you would still be involved, or if this exact conversation took place 10 years ago, i know for a fact you would still be involved.

im not saying you have NO passion towards the game, but you do not have as much passion as the active players... and you cant deny that, otherwise you would still be playing ;p

i agree, it was getting out of hand, but i wanted to give everybody a fair chance to get their thoughts, and opinions in, worms is a tricky game, there are infinite amounts of possibilities, for instance, it was not until a couple of pages into the debate, that we all decide option 2 was really not fair, and i gave an example of an in-game situation supporting that.

anyway, after i felt like everyone got their 2cents in, i made a poll, and after the poll was going stale, i PM'd the big boss monkeyisland to step in.

the fact that you think it worked in all 3 options fine and fair, shows you did not follow the debate... it kind of proves a healthy debate was needed, and that several minds are better than one... option 2 would be very unfair to someone in a certain situation.

Quote from: MonkeyIslandavirex, the debating is fine. I meant Senator can update the rules without contacting me.
maybe senator should pick a team of people he wants involved, and who are interested in all of this, and he should make a community, and get private forums... so other people are not bothered by long posts, or 4 page debates.... but i really dont think this is a 1 man job, a team is needed to discuss all options, put their heads together, and come up with the best set of rules, worded properly (wording them properly, after agreeing on the rules is the most important part)
Title: Re: CBA or w2w
Post by: TheKomodo on May 19, 2015, 06:48 PM
Quote from: Senator on May 19, 2015, 09:43 AMI played wwp around 2001-2003? under nicks Senator & OnCle (also WA for a short time before I quitted worms). I was in the same clan with Crazy (wwPd) and I also founded a clan called DoH (Drops on Head). From TUS members I remember Crazy, fada, voltage, Husk, noam... I also remember that I played a lot of RRs with BENSERV. I registered at TUS in 2008 but played mostly FNI tourneys around 2008-2010 (under nick Rantsi). Then I quitted again but came back in 2013 and have played TUS since that :)

I guess we just never had a chance to play each other then or can't remember lol.


Quote from: avirex on May 19, 2015, 04:08 PM
maybe senator should pick a team of people he wants involved, and who are interested in all of this, and he should make a community, and get private forums... so other people are not bothered by long posts, or 4 page debates.... but i really dont think this is a 1 man job, a team is needed to discuss all options, put their heads together, and come up with the best set of rules, worded properly (wording them properly, after agreeing on the rules is the most important part)

Yeah I agree with this, I do believe that myself Senator and avirex, with the help of Ryan were able to better understand this situation and the pros/cons of each option that we provided, I doubt Senator would have came to these conclusions on his own.