I dont understand how the tus system works, not in the mood for a big long post so ill just give you a couple of examples.
If I look at the elite stats for the current season I see that I am 17th with a rating of 945.
Artharas is 8th with a rating of 999.
When I check the analyser I see that if I loose against him I will loose 63 points, and if I win only gain 15 points.
How can this be right? He has a higher rating than me in this scheme yet if he beats me he gains more points than I would for beating him...
Also when I click on my stats, my eltie rank is shown as a star and a bronze stripe. In the elite stats it is only a bronze stripe...
Whats going on here? All the stats for the league are messed up and dont make any sense...
Hi NAiL :)
The system counts your overall points while reporting:
NAiL:
(https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/ranks/members/NAiL-Elite-all-3/)
Artharas:
(https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/ranks/members/Artharas-Elite-all-3/)
The PO qualification is now 4/4 too.
It means system picks up 4 best players in the current season.
And 4 best players from overall standings.
(The players which have played 30 games and have at least 50% winning percentage in that season)
We have talked about this lotta times. this is the last topic around this subject:
https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/leagues-ideas/tus-rating/
Hope it helps :)
The page you checked shows you the points you gained in this season. However, how many points you'll gain in a match is calculated from overall points, from all seasons together.
Ah ok well thanks for responding.
Ive been away from tus for a while Monkey, ill check out that link and read the rules.
Seems like a vey confusing system, here is no place to debate that though.
I'll enjoy playing games.
Won't the top 4 players from the overal standings most probably be inactive though???
4 players from top standings which have played 30 games and have at least 50% winning percentage in the current season.
Ok thanks.
Sorry Monkey, I apologise for being dumb and lazy
Its ok :)
We all are ^^ (Sometimes? XD)
This system is not that nuch confusing, I would rather "well-thought". :)
i really need to take some time to learn the rating system aswell.. :o
Jeez, chicken, it's basically the same as in xtc, the numbers are bit higher, that's all.
Top 4 players taken from current season standings, and top 4 players taken from overal league standings!
This is very different from xtc and is quite confusing! Doesnt seem to work at giving consistantly fair rating changes!
In xtc 8 players from overall standings entered the playoffs, season score didn't matter if u didn't hit top 8 overall at the same time (with required number of games played, of course).
Quote from: NAiL on July 24, 2009, 07:19 PM
This is very different from xtc and is quite confusing! Doesnt seem to work at giving consistantly fair rating changes!
Requirements for playoffs have NOTHING to do with ratings itself, I don't get what are you trying to say here...
4+4 system was used in TPL or smth like that, chicken23 mentioned it once, with difference being that TPL season chart was based on points (+2 for win, -1 for defeat, I think), here it's based on rating changes.
we did it 4 and 4 because people that have very high rating cant get to the playoffs because they only gain a few points for wins and lose a bunch when they lose, look at flori for example he usually only gains a couple points for winning a rr because his rating is so high in it, it makes it impossible to get to the playoffs each season doing it this way makes it more fair for players with really high rating
Having best 8 players season base is good only when you reset the rates/points every season too.
Its confusing because it compares the ratings of the "overal" league. This doesnt make sense... if I loose to artharas at elite i will only gain 21 points and loose 79.... and artharas is rated 1st in the elite rankings for this season... even though he lost 4 and won 5 games!!! This is confusing and doesnt make sense...
NAiL the league cares about overall stats. But it also "shows" you the stats in an specific season just to show you how things went.
Look at this for instance:
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/classic-stats/sort-points-down-all-singles/?s=7
It is the classic league in season 7.
Find yourself in the stats and look what has happened to you?
You are being marked as qualified for PO.
You are 42nd in the stats, But it is only for season #7. You are 14th overall and that's what TUS cares.
You are in the overall top 4 that have played your 30 games and you had 50% winning percentage, So welcome to the PO.
Aye ty, but inactive players are just gonna stay at the top of the overall standings, for example Mir is 1st for elite, hes not moving!
Elite standings (Overall)
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/classic-stats/Elite-stats/?s=overall
Who is Mir?
Why do you care about Elite standings this much?
For example, Gonzo. He is first in elite overall standings. He hasn't played much games lately.
So if anyone is really good in elite, They can get him in the standings. (Since he is not moving)
His Elite standings won't even affect the PO qualification in the seasons. Cause since he is inactive, Then he has no "30 games played", So the system will just ignore him.
and of course, It is Elite standings. The PO works for Classic schemes together (In this case). So PO ignores his stats in an specific scheme.
The elements that TUS cares is:
1. Playing at least games in the season
2. Having at least 50% winning percentage
3. Their position in the points
So an inactive player fails at the first 2 required options. Why do you care where he is at the 3rd option?
Nail m8, I'm starting to believe you don't understand the concept of rating.
Maybe I'll take some of my time soon and write a detailed explanation of the system, MI will make it a sticky and everbody happy, kk? :)
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on July 26, 2009, 08:36 AM
Who is Mir?
haha
wouldnt it be nice to display the overall rating and not the seasonal one? Then we could see the players with good ratings and how they are doing during the current season? Like fori is in 3rd at the moment but only has a bronze strip. Would be nicer to see his 3 stars elite rank?
You can view the overall standings anytime you want. (In case you don't know how to use timeMachine)
The season base standing is needed, Cause we actually measure the PO by the season:
1. Playing at least 30 games IN THE CURRENT SEASON
2. Having 50% winning percentage IN THE CURRENT SEASON
So even If I set the default stats to overall, Then people again want to switch to season view to see how people are doing in that season.
The number of things that are needed to be seen in the season view are more than overall view. That's why the default is season view, But you can switch the stats to the "overall" view by timeMachine.
Quote from: Chicken23 on July 26, 2009, 06:20 PM
wouldnt it be nice to display the overall rating and not the seasonal one?
I agree, this is what is confusing, becasue you think someone will have a higher rating than they actually do if you only look at the seasonal ratings.
Also, you should advertise the overall standings using the term "overall standings"!
What I mean by this is that your choice of term to describe the overall standings is "show me all together, confuse me".
This doesnt really indicate the importance of these stanings, in fact it encourages the player to not select this menu despite its vast relevance to the league!!
I also think it would be better to display the players qualifying for PO positions all on the front page. Otherwsie people have to select multiple pages of stats for BOTH the current season standings and also the "show me all together, confuse me" standings.
I understand the rating system now, although think that display wise, it could be better executed, with less pages of data to flick through in order to find out basic information!
Quote from: NAiL on July 26, 2009, 07:24 PM
Also, you should advertise the overall standings using the term "overall standings"!
What I mean by this is that your choice of term to describe the overall standings is "show me all together, confuse me".
This doesnt really indicate the importance of these stanings, in fact it encourages the player to not select this menu despite its vast relevance to the league!!
I also think it would be better to display the players qualifying for PO positions all on the front page. Otherwsie people have to select multiple pages of stats for BOTH the current season standings and also the "show me all together, confuse me" standings.
I understand the rating system now, although think that display wise, it could be better executed, with less pages of data to flick through in order to find out basic information!
Well, now you explained your problems alot better. I actually agree with that, having a more easily accesible overall standings page would be better indeed.
@MI: Could you possibly re-arrange the stats menu in that way?
i totally understand why you show the seasonal page. But what i think would be cool is to still show the seasonal stats... but show the rating of overall.. Instead of everyone having the bronze stripe. We'd see their overall rank but on the seasonal seedings of current season!
Quote from: NAiL on July 26, 2009, 07:24 PM
What I mean by this is that your choice of term to describe the overall standings is "show me all together, confuse me".
This doesnt really indicate the importance of these stanings, in fact it encourages the player to not select this menu despite its vast relevance to the league!!
That's completely reasonble. I'll change it to "Overall standings".
Quote from: NAiL on July 26, 2009, 07:24 PM
I also think it would be better to display the players qualifying for PO positions all on the front page. Otherwsie people have to select multiple pages of stats for BOTH the current season standings and also the "show me all together, confuse me" standings.
The system already shows the PO qualifications in the seasonal page. (for both 4 season top and 4 overall top), You don't need to go to overall pages to see the overall qualified people.
Another thing is you don't need to go to multiple pages to see all the stats. If you click on the "All" link, It will show you the whole list.
Quote from: NAiL on July 26, 2009, 07:24 PM
I understand the rating system now, although think that display wise, it could be better executed, with less pages of data to flick through in order to find out basic information!
Quote from: Rok on July 26, 2009, 07:49 PM
@MI: Could you possibly re-arrange the stats menu in that way?
Quote from: Chicken23 on July 26, 2009, 08:05 PM
i totally understand why you show the seasonal page. But what i think would be cool is to still show the seasonal stats... but show the rating of overall.. Instead of everyone having the bronze stripe. We'd see their overall rank but on the seasonal seedings of current season!
Ok, I think it would be so wrong to show the overall stats as default. The biggest reason is so many players in the overall stats haven't take part in the current season and it will show them also.
I guess Chicken gave us a solution. I agree that bronze strip in the seasonal stats is useless. I'll change that column to overall rates.
This way:
1. You will have the season points.
2. You can sort the stats by the overall standing by clicking on its column.
3. So if someone needs to know the number of games, Winning percentage ... of overall standings, Then he can change the TimeMachine. Otherwise he can still view the overall points/rates in the seasonal page.
I'll do the changes today, Max tomorrow.
i think everything is cool, just the last column :) You agree too hehe
Good to see you always working ont he league Monkey, nobody can deny your dedication to the league!
Ok, As Promised:
1. "Show me all together" changed to "Show me the overall stats" and it moved from the bottom of the list to the top.
2. When viewing seasonal, Instead of the bronze strip column, 2 other columns is added. One shows the overall points, The other shows the overall rank.
If you click on the "Overall Points" or "Overall Rank", System will sort the season stats by overall points.
Good Monkey.
I have some more questions.
How do the current league ratings relate to the overall ratings?
Is the same amount of points added/subtracted to your overall rating for whichever scheme?
How many points are then added to your overall rating?
It would be good to display this information on the analyser page... seeing as your ranking in the overall standings is as important for PO qualification as your rankings are for the current season, I thought that would be obvious.
I still dont think that the current system works out fairly enough, especially given the current inactiveness of worms.
The point differences do not work out fairly because a large chunk of the big ratings are held be inactive players. These players just sit at the top of the standings having not played a game for months... This means that the few active players with high overall rankings are the only ones people can win really big points from. This causes noob avoiding, which is even worse than noob bashing because it causes INACTIVENESS! People will not play league schemes if they stand too loose alot of points and gain virtually nothing for a long period of time!
I think it would be far better to reset the seasonal ratings every month and use these ratings to work out how many points should be won or lost in a match. Keep the overal data for sure, but its silly to reset the seasonal ratings and use the "overal" ratings to calcuatate the points difference.
You can see that the current system doesnt give an ACCURATE of a players skill level, worms is too inactive for this overal rating system to work!
Hope that made sense, Ill respond with more detail when im less tired and can focus a bit better!
Quote from: NAiL on July 30, 2009, 04:19 AM
How do the current league ratings relate to the overall ratings?
Is the same amount of points added/subtracted to your overall rating for whichever scheme?
How many points are then added to your overall rating?
The points added/subtracted are calculated from overall rating (which is different for every scheme, depending on how well one did so far in a given scheme). These points are then added to season rating (you can also call it season score, if you want), which is reseted every season to 1000. Overall ratings are not reseted. Amount of points added/subtracted can be viewed in analyzer.
Quote from: NAiL on July 30, 2009, 04:19 AM
I think it would be far better to reset the seasonal ratings every month and use these ratings to work out how many points should be won or lost in a match. Keep the overal data for sure, but its silly to reset the seasonal ratings and use the "overal" ratings to calcuatate the points difference.
You can see that the current system doesnt give an ACCURATE of a players skill level, worms is too inactive for this overal rating system to work!
No, you are wrong. The concept of rating is that it's supposed to show one's skill/performance over longer period of time (longer than one season, that's for sure). Calculating rating changes from season score, which is already reseted every season, or reseting overall rating every season, is the same - that way we'd assume that players skill also resets itself every season! :-X If your elite rating at the end of season
n was say 2000, it should stay 2000 at the beggining of season
n+1! Your skill didn't change, didn't it?
I agree that inactivness is a downside, but thing you suggest is far less accurate, IMO. And afterall, you can always reset your ratings if you want.
Cheers.
The good thing (Also funny and sad?) about TUS is we changed TUS league plan from the day #1. It was like we almost test every possible way to see if it works well or not. Like in a lab:
1. We started not using ELO and "win 2 points, lost 1" system. It turned out bad. Even it gave some people a good reason to badmouth TUS better.
2. We reset stats/points in every season and we lost lot of members, Because people liked to keep their stat. I remember exactly when we reset, The first thing was said by Chicken23:
"Now it makes no sense"
3. PO qualifications?
...
There are a lot :)
Quote from: Rok on July 30, 2009, 11:52 AM
I agree that inactivness is a downside, but thing you suggest is far less accurate, IMO. And afterall, you can always reset your ratings if you want.
I agree too.
All being said, It IS possible to start the season like a total league newbie.
You can reset your stats in every season. It is even better than if we reset all players stats. Because it will reset your points/stats to zero and makes you a newbie and you will have the whole players list (With different ranks) in front of you.
Personally I'd like to work on my stats and have it improved though.
Quote from: Rok on July 30, 2009, 11:52 AM
Quote from: NAiL on July 30, 2009, 04:19 AM
How do the current league ratings relate to the overall ratings?
Is the same amount of points added/subtracted to your overall rating for whichever scheme?
How many points are then added to your overall rating?
The points added/subtracted are calculated from overall rating (which is different for every scheme, depending on how well one did so far in a given scheme). These points are then added to season rating (you can also call it season score, if you want), which is reseted every season to 1000. Overall ratings are not reseted. Amount of points added/subtracted can be viewed in analyzer.
Thanks for replying rok and mi, but you didnt answer my question.
What I mean is, if I win 40 points for an elite match, I realise that my seasonal elite ranking will go up by 40 points, but will 40 points also be added to my overall elite rating?
How many of these 40 points will be added to my overall seasonal rating, and how many will be awarded to my overall OVERALL rating?
Whilst the analyser tells you how many points will be awarded to your seasonal rating for an individual scheme, it does not show you how much your overall seasonal rating will increase by.
It also tells you nothing about how much your overal rating for a scheme will incerase by, nor how much your overall overall rating will increase by. Seeing as OVERALL ratings are as importnat as seasonal ratings regarding PO qualifications, it is vital that this information is displayed on the analyser page!!!
You also said "inactiveness is a downside I agree".
Inactiveness kills leagues, its not a downside, its a CRITICAL side. If the current way of doing things promotes inactivness (which it does), then surely it is better to change the system to promote activeness!!!
Thanks.
Quote from: NAiL on July 30, 2009, 10:41 PM
What I mean is, if I win 40 points for an elite match, I realise that my seasonal elite ranking will go up by 40 points, but will 40 points also be added to my overall elite rating?
How many of these 40 points will be added to my overall seasonal rating, and how many will be awarded to my overall OVERALL rating?
The amount you gain/lost for elite scheme, Same amount will be added/subtracted from your overall elite scheme. Same amount goes for seasonal classic stats and again same amount goes for your classic overall rank.
Seasonal Classic points = Seasonal BnG points + Seasonal Elite points + Seasonal Hysteria points ....
Overall Classic points = Sum of all of seasonal classic points
Overall Elite points = Sum of all seasonal elite points.
So a 40 points for an elite match:
Seasonal Elite points = Previous seasonal Elite points + 40
Overall Elite points = Previous overall Elite points + 40
Seasonal Classic points = Seasonal Classic points + 40
Overall Classic points = Previous overall Classic points + 40
Since the amount is the same for every part. Analyzer shows you how much you gain. That number goes for every parts mentioned above.
Ah ok thanks for clearing that up MI, + well done intergrating the overall rating on the season stats page.
Another +1 for you!