I want to start a new debate with Shyguy and Avirex, we all think then all tus shemes need some changes, so lets start from Roper.
My english is weak but i'll try to explain it. We all hates when our opponent got easy crates during a few turns back, and we have hard once then atack is rly hard or sometimes just impossible to do......
So we want to force new rule in roper !!! i mean exactly about w2w rule .
With this new rule u allweys have two ways,
- (cba) u can go for crate like normal,
- (w2w) or u can touch botch walls, go for atack and then try to collect crate.
i think then it perfectly removing unfair cretes from the game and makes game clear and more cool.
well many ppl which i talked think good about this idea, so lets make a debate about it.
All ppl who will be for No, i just trust then they tryed to play at least one game with this rule.
i give link to game also https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-98908/ (https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-98908/)
and plz mods make here Votings, i cant find this option anywhere 8)
actually a nice idea, let's see what people will say about this. :)
yeah, good idea! once while i was in WM, we used to play this way precisely cause of crates! the games were much more fun and fair
i agree
(https://www.tus-wa.com/images/groups/ie/flag1315515090.bmp) approves your idea, Berria! GJ!
No ty for me.
When you're playing against a machine (99% hit) an impossible crate can give a little bit of fresh air once in a while, needed to get yourself together and try to make a comeback. With the alternative w2w-route a sweet roper should, in principle, be capable of making hits every single turn. That doesn't really help the motivation of the lesser roper (or the competition).
Quote from: HHC on January 29, 2012, 01:33 PM
No ty for me.
When you're playing against a machine (99% hit) an impossible crate can give a little bit of fresh air once in a while, needed to get yourself together and try to make a comeback. With the alternative w2w-route a sweet roper should, in principle, be capable of making hits every single turn. That doesn't really help the motivation of the lesser roper (or the competition).
in my mind the player who is playing game better should win !
going by ur way, u can play suck but crates give u a chance to win, its not fair !!
edit: HHC go try it first, its even more fun then playing with old rules, and u ll take more pleasuire from this game :)
I think people know by now that for me fun & close games >>>> skill-showdown. ;)
Quote from: HHC on January 29, 2012, 01:33 PM
No ty for me.
When you're playing against a machine (99% hit) an impossible crate can give a little bit of fresh air once in a while, needed to get yourself together and try to make a comeback. With the alternative w2w-route a sweet roper should, in principle, be capable of making hits every single turn. That doesn't really help the motivation of the lesser roper (or the competition).
also the easy crates, can give the better player an advantage.
dunno never thought i would say this but i like hhcs point. i really dont want to get crashed by a train ;D
IMO we should delete all the schemes and play only ttrr.
Stop this, roper was played this way for so long time now and I have never heard so many complains from losers about rules like these days. There are even more lucky schemes like T17 or shopper, and they were always in classic league too. Ppl just had fun playing them, and I'm still sure Dulek beats you in 10 on 10 games even with harder crates.
Quote from: Kaleu on January 29, 2012, 03:36 PM
Quote from: Maciej on January 29, 2012, 03:22 PM
IMO we should delete all the schemes and play only ttrr.
Stop this, roper was played this way for so long time now and I have never heard so many complains from losers about rules like these days. There are even more lucky schemes like T17 or shopper, and they were always in classic league too. Ppl just had fun playing them, and I'm still sure Dulek beats you in 10 on 10 games even with harder crates.
HUAHAUHAAHAUHAUHUAHAAAHUAEHA.
fr vid now.
can we pls add a tus award for the non funniest jokes?
wrong topic to ask for that guys xd
I'll delete every post regarding these Maciej/Kaleu nonsense.
Back to topic,
I don't believe in crate rape in roper and I think the scheme always balances itself out. However I like this rule.
Quote from: Peja on January 29, 2012, 03:46 PM
Quote from: Kaleu on January 29, 2012, 03:36 PM
Quote from: Maciej on January 29, 2012, 03:22 PM
IMO we should delete all the schemes and play only ttrr.
Stop this, roper was played this way for so long time now and I have never heard so many complains from losers about rules like these days. There are even more lucky schemes like T17 or shopper, and they were always in classic league too. Ppl just had fun playing them, and I'm still sure Dulek beats you in 10 on 10 games even with harder crates.
HUAHAUHAAHAUHAUHUAHAAAHUAEHA.
fr vid now.
can we pls add a tus award for the non funniest jokes?
+ 1 pejote :D huahsuasasa
This rule at least makes the w2w rule in sudden death make sense; that rule kind of just randomly pops out of no where into the game. My suggestion would be to slightly decrease retreat time so if they chose to do w2w instead of crate, there is a more challenging act to use retreat time to go back and get the crate.
This rule is kind of drastic, though, and we all know WA dislikes drastic change. I suggest to first remove the ridiculous first turn zook rule first. that is all.
The roper scheme is just sooooo classic, but *tear* I do support these ideas
no , ty xD
i like rope as it is ...
...and if I would have to choose a change for the scheme necessarily , i would go for shyguy/avirex w2roper XDDD
No rules Roper, if anything.
This rule sucks just for one reason:
If you lead, you just have to hide top or hide really near from a wall and do w2w all the time.
on this way, it is impossible for the other guy to win.
It will just become a boring schem without any surprise after 2 minutes of game.
well, i pleyed it many times and i didnt noticed that things Agneau, did u tryed it?
Ok i've spent over 20 minutes typing out different paragraphs and I can't do it without insulting people and continously highlighting and deleting it all and starting all over, so f@#! it, I won't get involved.
You are doomed to put up with this stupid scheme forever.
Even if someone actually came up with a perfect scheme, no one'll buy it.
Very nice text Berria and nice try to make the worst scheme to a much better scheme!
Of course yes to more skill (=less luck) and no to the classic roper!!!
Quote from: Berria on January 29, 2012, 06:49 PM
well, i pleyed it many times and i didnt noticed that things Agneau, did u tryed it?
Of course not ! lol
too inactive at the moment, but i remind having plazyed it long time ago on wwp for fun (u know just to improve skills) and it was more "rope on top" that "rope and hide".
I'll try when I'll get fired! :)
pretty cool idea. interesting no one thought of it until now
Quote from: franz on January 29, 2012, 11:12 PM
pretty cool idea. interesting no one thought of it until now
It's been done before franz, i've played Ropers like that before, not in Leagues though.
That wouldnt be a roper anymore.
Quote from: Dub-c on January 29, 2012, 11:22 PM
That wouldnt be a roper anymore.
Just change the name of the scheme then.
It's still roper... But if both worms are tucked away on the bottom left of the map and the crate goes bottom right, you have no chance to get create and attack.so with the w2w rule, it's no doubt still a hard attack, but atleast it's practical.. You can get your crate in the retreat time...
With this rule now rather then being punished with no chance to attack when you get a hard crate, you are only punished with a slightly harder turn, more roping, and more then likely not a very good hide.. Because you have to run back to get create...
If you think about it.. This rule would result in more use of the map...
I have seen too many times both players hiding bottom left, and hoping to win the crate rape battle... It's quite boring...
And dub, I'm really surprised that you support this current rope scheme as much as you do, knowing how much skill and strategy that is removed grok the scheme compared to worms 2 roping... But whatever
Quote from: Agneau on January 29, 2012, 06:37 PM
This rule sucks just for one reason:
If you lead, you just have to hide top or hide really near from a wall and do w2w all the time.
on this way, it is impossible for the other guy to win.
It will just become a boring schem without any surprise after 2 minutes of game.
I mean if you lead you can hide top and regular roper and the same thing will happen... that's why people hide top in roper when they lead...
I'm with avi and Shy on this.
Increase fd, use destructible terrain and make no rules. Problems fixed!!
No drama pls.
When i played with avi we used w2w rule just few times in whole game, only in cases when atack was imposible to do after getting crate,
so game engine does not change !
Its still roper but much better.
there are many people with ideas, to make schemes better, more fair, balanced etc.
i think, at least we should test these scheme ideas, maybe in form of a seperate ''tus scheme test league'' ?!
if we just could make 1 scheme better, it were a good progress for worms and the community.
Get the first turn-attack. Hide on top. Hope that map has no gay hides -> Victory
.. or a draw.. then do it all over again!
To be more "honest" though. Cr8 rape does destroy roper a bit from a competitive point of view and I'd like to see a change.. w2w sounds like a good idea.
Or no rules roper with 12 seconds of time ( for example) to not make it too easy.
You must mean w2 roper? :D
Quote from: ShyGuy on January 30, 2012, 12:10 AM
Quote from: Agneau on January 29, 2012, 06:37 PM
This rule sucks just for one reason:
If you lead, you just have to hide top or hide really near from a wall and do w2w all the time.
on this way, it is impossible for the other guy to win.
It will just become a boring schem without any surprise after 2 minutes of game.
I mean if you lead you can hide top and regular roper and the same thing will happen... that's why people hide top in roper when they lead...
Yes and no, with the w2w thing if u hide top u are SURE to attack !
Without it u still have a chance to get an hard cr8.
Which is why I suggested shorter retreat time, just a tad bit shorter, so doing a w2w and getting a crate is very challenging but rewarding
I'm totally agree with berria.. The roper is a big liucky game now.. But it shouldn't be that :)
Watch this game: https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/download/game-25383-1/ I should lose here, but everytime when the other guy could finish the game he got very hard cr8s :D
w2w rule is a good thing when you got a hard cr8 :) or at least we need a rule that a player can replace cba with w2w 3 times on a game :)
Quote from: Tomi on January 30, 2012, 08:53 PM
or at least we need a rule that a player can replace cba with w2w 3 times on a game :)
very interesting suggestion ;)
Quote from: Berria on January 30, 2012, 09:17 PM
Quote from: Tomi on January 30, 2012, 08:53 PM
or at least we need a rule that a player can replace cba with w2w 3 times on a game :)
very interesting suggestion ;)
And who's gonna keep track of this?
Please don't BnGize the roper rules.
Tomi, let's not exaggerate. roper is not "a big lucky game" as you say.
yes, crates affect games a little, but mistakes affect games overwhelmingly more than anything. you guys make it sound like 90% of ropers end due to luck, but really less than 1% of games are decided by crates alone.
your game vs msc was affected by crates, but msc made way too many mistakes. watch it again.
unless someone invents a crateless roper, they will always affect games slightly. even with berria's w2w idea, crates will still affect games slightly, but at least they become a little more interesting.
Quote from: franz on January 30, 2012, 11:54 PMyou guys make it sound like 90% of ropers end due to luck, but really less than 1% of games are decided by crates alone.
Nah not really mate, it's you who makes that exaggeration/assumption.
The truth is, you can be playing fluent, get 2 impossible crates, and lose, it doesn't matter if it happens alot, the fact is it happens, and when it DOES happen, no one deserves to feel like their efforts were torn from them out of their control, and for people who highly pride themselves upon win rates etc it's even worse. Falling a few turns each on possible crates at least in my opinion, is frustrating enough, let alone just ridiculous when you never had a chance to grab and hit in the 1st place.
Yes, it doesn't bother you franz, it doesn't bother quite a few players here, alot of people are quite happy to lose with a little luck, some people actually prefer this, it adds a bit of spice to the excitement and randomness that is Worms Armageddon, there is more than sufficient enough evidence that this affects ALOT of people.
This discussion alone has been brought up AFAIK at least 6 times since I started on TuS, I think Roper honestly, sincerely needs a change, more than anything.
Quote from: Komito on January 31, 2012, 02:06 AM
Quote from: franz on January 30, 2012, 11:54 PMyou guys make it sound like 90% of ropers end due to luck, but really less than 1% of games are decided by crates alone.
Nah not really mate, it's you who makes that exaggeration/assumption.
The truth is, you can be playing fluent, get 2 impossible crates, and lose, it doesn't matter if it happens alot, the fact is it happens, and when it DOES happen, no one deserves to feel like their efforts were torn from them out of their control, and for people who highly pride themselves upon win rates etc it's even worse. Falling a few turns each on possible crates at least in my opinion, is frustrating enough, let alone just ridiculous when you never had a chance to grab and hit in the 1st place.
Yes, it doesn't bother you franz, it doesn't bother quite a few players here, alot of people are quite happy to lose with a little luck, some people actually prefer this, it adds a bit of spice to the excitement and randomness that is Worms Armageddon, there is more than sufficient enough evidence that this affects ALOT of people.
This discussion alone has been brought up AFAIK at least 6 times since I started on TuS, I think Roper honestly, sincerely needs a change, more than anything.
completely agree.
there is no reason, whether you are playing flawlessly or making mistakes every turn, that you should forfeit a turn just because the game engine tucks a crate into the far island. Roper is extremely bad with this. Not only does the random crate drop factor sometimes decide a turn sometimes, but the random WIND factor on the first turn does, too! Why are we allowing these random game mechanics determine what happens in a turn? I honestly can't think of another scheme that has random game mechanics that can prevent you from making progress in the game, let alone two! I mean roper is all about making consistent attacks, yet there are rules whose sole purpose is to favor those random game mechanics that can prevent you from doing this! why???
I sort of agree with the 1st turn wind thing, but then again, wasn't that introduced in the 1st place to stop people from picking a ridiculously easy map, getting 1st turn, never missing, and winning?
zook first turn was introduced as a worms 2 rule (its about the only thing that w:a adopted, and for the totally wrong reason)
the zook first turn was put into place on worms 2, because we did not have the luxury of teleporting our worms where we wanted at the start of each game, it was randomly generated, so if you went second, and were placed at the top of the map, you still got shit luck, but atleast you it would not be an easy nade/mine attack for easy FD, zook was mandatory....
dont ask me why the f@#! w:a took this rule into effect, but thats a prime example showing how w:a roper rules were created when w:a was first made, and w:a people were just learning to rope.... why the hell are these same rules, turn times, and retreats still in effect?
i have said it time and time again.... but, you all consider yourself "pros" yet, you play with a total turn time of 25 seconds.... thats disgusting...
something needs to be changed, and its completely obvious the w:a community does not like drastic change, so lets start with this simple w2w rule.... (and yes, retreat time should be lowered) but lets just start with the w2w rule, u stubborn bastards ;D
Why the need to complicate things by adding more rules?
Would it not make sense to make less rules?
Quote from: Dub-c on January 31, 2012, 03:42 AM
Why the need to complicate things by adding more rules?
Would it not make sense to make less rules?
w2w its very simply rule, and this adds more strategy to roper, reduce the role of luck and win will depend only on your skills.
Dont tell that this will confusing game, i allready said...... u have to chose what is better in ur situation, if u go for w2w u risking !! coz its not simply to atack then, and its not simply to reach crate after atack......... if u scary u can go for hard crate like allweys without taking hitpoints.
you will not use too often this rule in whole game, just few times.
I've not read all of the posts, sry. I just want to double check a thing.
If you have an easy crate you deserve to do w2w or yu would also get the crate and attack (cba)?
And if yes, who decides if a crate is easy or less?
Quote from: ANO on January 31, 2012, 08:56 AM
I've not read all of the posts, sry. I just want to double check a thing.
If you have an easy crate you deserve to do w2w or yu would also get the crate and attack (cba)?
And if yes, who decides if a crate is easy or less?
nothing to do with "easy"/"hard" crates, the rules berria suggested were:
cba
OR w2w, so you can do w2w, then attack and then get the crate (if you want/can)
Quote from: ANO on January 31, 2012, 08:56 AM
If you have an easy crate you deserve to do w2w or yu would also get the crate and attack (cba)?
this would be impossible to decide about that things during the game ( i mean about which crate is easy or is'nt)
Ano its easy to explain....... u know how f@#!in frustrating is when ur opponent have few easy crates in a row, and u need to run for crate after which u cant atack him.
U can be better player in this game, u have better runs, but u can lose with him coz he dont need even to run thats far as u, and thats many times as u.
This rule give u chance to decide, u can risk ( u risking fall, and getting ur crate by ur opponent) u can touch just botch walls and try to attack him like in "sd time" and then get ur crate, or like in current sheme, just take a crate and no atack.
General thing what this rule bring is that u have posibility to atack even if u have f@#!in unlucky crate !!!!!!!!!
hm i would like to know how many games are really decided because of crates. but according to the posts of some people it happens all the time ;D so maybe someone can show me some replays where the crate and not that fail decided the game.
also i am bit disappointed agnos gets ignored here, his point is good imo. i hardly see people struggling in w2w sd roping, but it happens when they get a hard crate. so why making the game easier for a majority of people?
Quote from: Peja on January 31, 2012, 10:03 AM
hm i would like to know how many games are really decided because of crates.
u dont know how many ,coz u dont play many ropers mate........
but trust me, as lon as i play i had or i seen many such situations.
Quote from: Peja on January 31, 2012, 10:03 AM
i hardly see people struggling in w2w sd roping, but it happens when they get a hard crate. so why making the game easier for a majority of people?
u propably dont uderstand it peja -.- or u just dont read mine posts.....
This does not change the game on easier .................... just will eliminate a luck porraaaa
cmmon ppl, stop with any speculations here >:(.
Quote from: Berria on January 31, 2012, 11:00 AM
Quote from: Peja on January 31, 2012, 10:03 AM
hm i would like to know how many games are really decided because of crates.
u dont know how many ,coz u dont play many ropers mate........
but trust me, as lon as i play i had or i seen many such situations.
Quote from: Peja on January 31, 2012, 10:03 AM
i hardly see people struggling in w2w sd roping, but it happens when they get a hard crate. so why making the game easier for a majority of people?
u propably dont uderstand it peja -.- or u just dont read mine posts.....
This does not change the game on easier .................... just will eliminate a luck porraaaa
cmmon ppl, stop with any speculations here >:(.
these are no speculations, these w2w turns are basic, good ropers do it right after getting waked at 3 o clock in the morning. if you could always use w2w, a basic move will be the hardest in the whole game.
it would elminate some really nice attacks and also a lot of fun. i am already bored in ropers of doing the same stuff over and over again. for me, roper will lose the last part of fun i got with the scheme when i play it in leagues. but your right its not my scheme, maybe i talk complete bullshit xd
ot: wasnt komo supporting the idea of using maps where good ropers can attack by using their skill, regardless the place into the crate spawns ?
nope, u dont get it, first go then and try it, play some games and u will see.....
1. u wouldnt use w2w all the time, coz in all cases after atack u want to hide ur worm near ur opponent's worm - if u atack first, and then u want to go for crate, u ll hide or fall in centre of map so a turn of ur opponent wil be easier !!
2. w2w run arent basic that much as u said, if both worms are in one place on map (thats is in most cases) u need to go touch 2 walls, go back and try to atack good hided worm.
3. its dosnt eliminate nothin (beside luck) game looks very similar like an old one.
4. Last part of fun for u in roper is this what i want to change.................... fff yes i can say it, when w2w rule begins to work u never win roper with good skilled player........
u ll do it only if gonna change ur rope skill my friend.
Ok . . . Your not getting it.
Why add rules to a scheme when you can remove all rules and acomplish the same thing.
Its funny how many times I've seen someone get a hard crate at the end of the game and then blame crates for his loss. Even though he failed many other turns. It was still the crates fault.
I've seen many many times people will think a crate is impossible, yet someone gets the crate and attacks. So although impossible for some does it not show skill for the people that get them?
All this wxw rule does is help noobs and non effecient ropers.
What strategy does it add? Do I go for cr8 or wxw? Do hide near the crate I skipped, farthest away from it, or go get? All this brilliant strategy at the cost of reducing the skills needed.
omg Dub just put this sheme , take any skilled friend and play some games, i cant now answer for ur all misses objection coz amin work now,
but i ll do it later for sure.
This is why we pitched w2roper long ago, Dub. It got rejected by the community.
Quote from: Dub-c on January 31, 2012, 12:57 PM
Its funny how many times I've seen someone get a hard crate at the end of the game and then blame crates for his loss. Even though he failed many other turns. It was still the crates fault.
Dub, try to think about what you're saying... are you saying if this person got a manageable crate last turn, then he would have won? doesn't that mean he made less mistakes since he won? Oh, but he got an impossible crate last turn and lost? so that means he made more mistakes than his opponents and deserved to lose? Whether or not the player made more or less mistakes than his opponent solely depends on that last crate, which is a random drop, according to your logic... please stop using this argument.
Whenever a roper is even, the past is absolutely irrelevant imo. If both worms have 40 hp, but flip flopped around all game, then a single crate at the end prevented the kill, then that is utter bullshit for a "competitive" scheme.
Shy I just don't understand your logic.
Every turn is revelant . . .
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-96824/
just impossible cr8
thats why i agree with berria 100%
offtopic but wtf, why people do 2 posts in a row instead of using the modify button?
Quote from: ShyGuy on January 31, 2012, 01:35 PM
This is why we pitched w2roper long ago, Dub. It got rejected by the community.
Quote from: Dub-c on January 31, 2012, 12:57 PM
Its funny how many times I've seen someone get a hard crate at the end of the game and then blame crates for his loss. Even though he failed many other turns. It was still the crates fault.
Dub, try to think about what you're saying... are you saying if this person got a manageable crate last turn, then he would have won? doesn't that mean he made less mistakes since he won? Oh, but he got an impossible crate last turn and lost? so that means he made more mistakes than his opponents and deserved to lose? Whether or not the player made more or less mistakes than his opponent solely depends on that last crate, which is a random drop, according to your logic... please stop using this argument.
Whenever a roper is even, the past is absolutely irrelevant imo. If both worms have 40 hp, but flip flopped around all game, then a single crate at the end prevented the kill, then that is utter bullshit for a "competitive" scheme.
Stop bullshitting Shy, you are twisting dub-c`s words into something unlogical. You have interpreted his quote, which is pretty spot on if you ask me, into bullshit. Ofcourse the past is relevant. An even game like you are mentioning as an example, might not have been an even game if one of the players had played flawlessly and that specific crate would not be decisive.
How about leaving it as it is, since it's the best as it is right now? Maciej (and anyone else taking his side, I didn't read through the topic) is right, leave these schemes alone, they don't need your newschool modifications, we don't need them, you can only harm, you can't do any good.
This scheme is new school, ray.. There is absolutely nothing old school about the roper scheme on it's current state...
And how the hell can you say it's the best now and can not improve? It has never been changed since wa started for anyone to know that...
The truth is, the w2w rule, I'm not a fan of, but w;a refuses drastic change.. So we thought of a small rule to improve roper...
If I had it may way, I would show ray what old school roping was, but none wants to try or take some thing new(thats actually old) into consideration..
Dub, tho only argument I see from you and franz is that if you play a perfect game it may not have come down to that last crate that ruined the entire game.. But here is a news flash.. There is no such thing as a perfect game... Unless of course you get all easy crates...
dub, I would like for you to make a scheme, with no rules and post it... Me and several others will support it.
Quote from: Ray on January 31, 2012, 02:40 PM
How about leaving it as it is, since it's the best as it is right now? Maciej (and anyone else taking his side, I didn't read through the topic) is right, leave these schemes alone, they don't need your newschool modifications, we don't need them, you can only harm, you can't do any good.
The entire discussion is about whether the scheme can be change to something better, Ray. I think you should take the time to actually read through the topic before you make up your opinion and post in such an arrogant way. I react on the way you try to demote some of those who`s actually trying to contribute in this topic as "newschool modifications". We need them, they CAN do some good, and the only one doing any harm in this thread is you.
Quote from: avirex on January 31, 2012, 02:59 PM
But here is a news flash.. There is no such thing as a perfect game... Unless of course you get all easy crates...
You're implying that you never played a perfect game? I can see where the urge to change the scheme comes from. :P
Thats what I'm implying.... Yes darkz...
Me and shy gave franz an example of a game that was perfect, and crates raped in the past and franz started with.. " you bumped your head at 3:25 and did not get the best hide, your mine only did 46 damage at 5;51, you fell in retreat time at 6:13 and took 6 fall damage"
And franz was right.. Out was not a perfect game.. Anc none will eve do a perfect game.. But here is a deal for you darkz, if you can ever do a perfect game, you can move on up from your clan, to a real clan likem mm ;P
If by perfect game you mean not falling, taking every crate and attacking every turn of the game, I've done that quite a bunch of times. Maybe one day you can do it too and send in your application for CF. :)
Bahahaha.. If so, then you never experienced crate rape. Which means you are not experienced enough for mm... So I'm sorry darkz, thanks for your intereat, we had a vote and it was unanimous of no's, even tiqu voted no.. But keep trying and improving darkz, maybe one day my friend ;D
Quote from: avirex on January 31, 2012, 03:14 PM
Thats what I'm implying.... Yes darkz...
Me and shy gave franz an example of a game that was perfect, and crates raped in the past and franz started with.. " you bumped your head at 3:25 and did not get the best hide, your mine only did 46 damage at 5;51, you fell in retreat time at 6:13 and took 6 fall damage"
And franz was right.. Out was not a perfect game.. Anc none will eve do a perfect game.. But here is a deal for you darkz, if you can ever do a perfect game, you can move on up from your clan, to a real clan likem mm ;P
Quote from: darKz on January 31, 2012, 03:23 PM
If by perfect game you mean not falling, taking every crate and attacking every turn of the game, I've done that quite a bunch of times. Maybe one day you can do it too and send in your application for CF. :)
You'll both get your P45 in the post :)
i dont really like this rule, i think people blame the crates a little too much... out of 100 roper losses id probably only blame one or two on the crates...
and no1 would have an excuse for losing anymore!
Seriously though avi, do you want to change the scheme because of crate rape, or because you miss the scheme used on Worms 2? Or are you maybe just tired of this scheme?
Yes, you can have really tough luck in a roper-game from time to time, but the same goes with shoppa and team17. It is how it should be! I love the excitement there is at the end of the game, when things look really tough for me, but I know I`ve still got a chance to get back in the game. I also love how I can never be too sure of a victory, because crates can screw me over, so I have to stay focused and concentrated through the entire game.
Removing these factors will result in games with almost no uncertainty involved, which sounds very boring to me. We`ve already got TTRR, Elite and BnG which are all schemes based on skill only. If you look on the standings of the best ropers, their winning percentage is pretty much the same as the best players in all other schemes. They have certainly not been crate raped to an unfair percentage compared to their skillevel. Look at Random, he has won 9 out of 10 of all ropers he has played.
I don`t really buy this crate rape in roper. We all have games where crates can screw one over, but it is the player that has the ability to stay cold and still rope focused who`s rewarded in the end. Many players get upset and frustrated over continuesly bad crates, they make mistakes and they lose. In other words, tough crates are what defines the good ropers from the very best ropers. Instead of looking at the scheme, people should take a look at how players like dibz, dulek, random and artic manage to win as many games as they do. One thing that many players can improve on, and which these guys are really excellent at, is how efficient you collect a crate.
Quote from: Crazy on January 31, 2012, 02:28 PM
Quote from: ShyGuy on January 31, 2012, 01:35 PM
This is why we pitched w2roper long ago, Dub. It got rejected by the community.
Quote from: Dub-c on January 31, 2012, 12:57 PM
Its funny how many times I've seen someone get a hard crate at the end of the game and then blame crates for his loss. Even though he failed many other turns. It was still the crates fault.
Dub, try to think about what you're saying... are you saying if this person got a manageable crate last turn, then he would have won? doesn't that mean he made less mistakes since he won? Oh, but he got an impossible crate last turn and lost? so that means he made more mistakes than his opponents and deserved to lose? Whether or not the player made more or less mistakes than his opponent solely depends on that last crate, which is a random drop, according to your logic... please stop using this argument.
Whenever a roper is even, the past is absolutely irrelevant imo. If both worms have 40 hp, but flip flopped around all game, then a single crate at the end prevented the kill, then that is utter bullshit for a "competitive" scheme.
Stop bullshitting Shy, you are twisting dub-c`s words into something unlogical. You have interpreted his quote, which is pretty spot on if you ask me, into bullshit. Ofcourse the past is relevant. An even game like you are mentioning as an example, might not have been an even game if one of the players had played flawlessly and that specific crate would not be decisive.
I am not bullshitting and the only illogical thing is the play perfect to curb crate rape theory... My statement about the past being irrelevant doesn't have to do with the statement i quoted dub in... which is why i separated the idea by a paragraph... but this wouldn't be the first time i logically shut down that argument and was totally ignored or addressed for something else I said.
Dub, let's say both worms have 40 hp and there was no hard crate the entire game... it is safe to assume, no matter how many mistakes each player made, that they are both playing pretty evenly... you're trying to tell me an impossible crate at the end of the game and the loss is ultimately your fault because you may have made a mistake in the past? Im bullshitting? first, give me a valid reason why anyone should randomly be denied a turn to attack, THE BASIC GOAL OF THAT SCHEME, just because the game engine says so... that is really the cornerstone of my argument... until then, I don't really care about your red herrings
Quote from: Dub-c on January 31, 2012, 12:57 PM
Ok . . . Your not getting it.
Why add rules to a scheme when you can remove all rules and acomplish the same thing.
more likely is adding one detail to the sheme than removing all rules, this is discussion about concrete thing.
Quote from: Dub-c on January 31, 2012, 12:57 PMIts funny how many times I've seen someone get a hard crate at the end of the game and then blame crates for his loss. Even though he failed many other turns. It was still the crates fault.
yeah u right, i seen many times ppl who wanted to explained his lose in this way then they have unlucky crates but they just sucks, and they should lose for sure !!!!!, yes i Agreeee.
but i also seen problems when two ppls playing roper and not everything depends on them (wtf?)......... why i losing when i didnt make any fail ?????? where is fair cempetition??
Quote from: Dub-c on January 31, 2012, 12:57 PMI've seen many many times people will think a crate is impossible, yet someone gets the crate and attacks. So although impossible for some does it not show skill for the people that get them?
Am agree too,
but i talking about other situations.........
Its clear then guy who is trying to get hard crate and he will atack its better then guy who just take safety crate and go back.
But with w2w rule u can do the same, u can chose harder way : go for crate and try to atack so u wininng then after it u can hide ur worm.
or chose touching walls, u go atack, and u risking then u ll not collect ur cratte, if u dont do it then ur opponent have opportunity to stole it, and if u do, u have no time to hide ur worm near of ur oponent, so he will have more chances to attack u easy in centre of map in next run.
Quote from: Dub-c on January 31, 2012, 12:57 PMAll this wxw rule does is help noobs and non effecient ropers.
am not noob in roper, and trust me
i dont want to make game easier,
i just want to eliminate luck and i want then only better players will be wining roper.
It's funny you mention that crazy, because thats how this topic was formed, we think ALL schemes should be changed.. Save the suspense of luck for fun games, and hysteria matches, lol...
There should be a separate league with schemes based purely on skill, or at least as close as we can create it...
And your acting like we are saying roper scheme is like a flip of the coin.. None has ever said that, of course the more skilled player can beat the odds and won in high percentage... That does not make it right, crates should not determine a game never mind a single turn....
Just admit the damn scheme is flawed
Crazy, I do not even disagree that the more consistent player should win. The fact is, playing more consistent does not magically make the crates fall fairly, and that is what I'm talking about. Like avi said, no one said the game is a coin flip, I am just pointing out luck factors that can be easily removed... but with crates and zook first turn roper, random oil and mines elite, magic bullets t17, and firepunch/dragonball crate shoppa, the competitive gamer CONSTANTLY gets slapped in the face with the scheme decisions around here
Okay Shy, I understand. I just can`t see why you so desperatly want to remove all luck-based factors from every scheme though. There are many different aspects to consider when we start changing vital parts of the game. Remember how you once were a noob yourself Shy, and the thrill you had when you finally managed to beat one of the "pro" players? It gives you motivation to continue improving. I`m concerned about the recruitment of new players to the league if we make all schemes purely based on skill.
Quote from: ShyGuy on January 31, 2012, 04:33 PM
Crazy, I do not even disagree that the more consistent player should win. The fact is, playing more consistent does not magically make the crates fall fairly, and that is what I'm talking about. Like avi said, no one said the game is a coin flip, I am just pointing out luck factors that can be easily removed... but with crates and zook first turn roper, random oil and mines elite, magic bullets t17, and firepunch/dragonball crate shoppa, the competitive gamer CONSTANTLY gets slapped in the face with the scheme decisions around here
sidekick: u seriously complain about mines and barrels in elite? i guess u really wanna make schemes boring ;D
btw dont forget the chute in ttrr and in general, really annyoing luck factor with this winds, pls add it to your list.
damm im such a fool, hi shy ;D
Quote from: Crazy on January 31, 2012, 05:15 PM
Okay Shy, I understand. I just can`t see why you so desperatly want to remove all luck-based factors from every scheme though. There are many different aspects to consider when we start changing vital parts of the game. Remember how you once were a noob yourself Shy, and the thrill you had when you finally managed to beat one of the "pro" players? It gives you motivation to continue improving. I`m concerned about the recruitment of new players to the league if we make all schemes purely based on skill.
It's just frustrating when you get impossible wind for an attack first turn roper, frustrating when you collect a dragonball in shoppa, frustrating when you get popped by the OP magic bullet despite how well you play, etc. I guess we just view the same issue differently. you think it is fun, i think it is frustrating
EDIT: There are still many inherent luck factors that we can't change, im concerned with the ones that are easily fixed without monumentally changing the face of the scheme.
You're cheating on your argument, crazy. Saying luck motivates the noob to continue improving can work with the opposite effect; the luck is against them that they get brutally defeated without even having a chance... to me, being defeated like that would make me say "f@#! this game, there's not even skill involved". If I were beat by straight skill, to me, that means that I need to improve... I shouldn't be going into games feeling optimistic because luck COULD be on my side. Also, I would guess people prefer skilled against luck, because schemes like ttrr and elite are more popular than mine madness, t17, and russian roulette.
I'm glad you care about the recruitment of new players, but unless a valid study was conducted that proves changing schemes to be more skilled decreases the amount of new league players, that argument doesn't stand. You need evidence. I'm not trying to be a dick, i'm just trying to argue from a completely rational standpoint
I'm not going to debate whether roper is lucky or not, we've already had this debate.
However, I am for changing the scheme to make it more tactical and for the right reasons.
I appreciate the thought put into trying to make the scheme better, but, I do not like adding a rule as senseless as roping wxw instead of getting a crate. I absolutely hate that there is sd and a wxw rule at sd.
Why change to an unproven scheme when there has been another scheme that had been in use for years and been thoroughly tested and proven.
Roper use to be as strategic as it was about roping. I would love it go back to that.
What I would propose would be:
No rules Except zook first turn and attack from rope
Cr8 argument is over. Added is a great amount more strategy. When to leave cr8s when to get cr8s. When its more beneficial to go for fd then to get cr8s. Attacking a worm so it lands where you can block it. Skill of getting unblocked. Etc.
Increased FD
Exact number to be increased to is debatable. Adds to the skill of roping by being rewarded for not falling. Adds to the strategy of being able to attack a worm for fd. Makes it possible to catch up to the person your playing if you miss a turn, you can gain a turn back by continuously being able to fd effeiciently. Etc.
Two worms per player
Adds strategy. Exact health is debatable.
Less retreat time
Exact time is debatable. But 10 is definitely to much. With less retreat time it makes it harder to be able to attack the worm and retreat to get the cr8. You may have to throw a well timer'd nade or zook in order to get the crate. This would also make it harder for someone to attack someone that is on the floor or in a cavern and take a well placed top hide.
Less turn time
Debatable, but, I think 13 or 14 seconds would go be better with the other modifications that I suggested.
Destructible Land
Adds both strategy and skill. More fd is possible and a greater amount of places where you can get fd is acquired by having destructible land. It also accounts for a great amount of varying in the terrain itself, making one have to adapt his roping to the changing terrain.
No SD
This is a roper and will be won by playing a roper. Not by stopping the roper because a certain amount of time has gone by and starting to rope wxw before attacking.
Zook first turn
I believe this rule should stay as whoever has first turn can hide on top and easily attack first. A zook at least takes a little more skill then easily getting a cr8 and dropping a mine on a worms head.
Attack from rope
For the simple reason that it takes more skill to zook or attack a worm from the rope then ground zooking.
As per Avirex's request
imagine situation when u are in down left and crate is landing down right, map is hard atack is very hard too.
- u can try to get crate, go back and try to atack
- u can go for crate, go back and hide better,
- u can touch walls, go back and try to atack, hide then but miss ur crate (ur opponent cantake it in next run)
- u can touch walls, go back and try to atack, and then try to get crate
...game could be more skilled, tactical, more funniest and interesting.
edit: i also like ur idea dub-c, i just dont like current engine of roper.
Well dub... Thats almost exactly me and shys scheme we named w2 roper, with some exceptions.. We were not only trying to resemble the old w2 scheme but also we tried to take into consideration of wa not liking drastic change...
If people would only give it a chance they would see how much strategy is involved...
My personal favorite was 2v2 with different colors for all 4 players.. So some games you had a turn after the other team, and some games you had a turn after your partner.. I loved having turn after partners.. Leaving crates for him... Or attacking a worm to blast him closer trio a spot he could be fd'd or when the worm you want to attack has piled your teammate. Place a mine for him to get a combo.. Lots of strategy and skill involved....
The entire scheme should be changed!! Dammit
that sounds so fun
Quote from: avirex on January 31, 2012, 11:05 PM
Well dub... Thats almost exactly me and shys scheme we named w2 roper, with some exceptions.. We were not only trying to resemble the old w2 scheme but also we tried to take into consideration of wa not liking drastic change...
If people would only give it a chance they would see how much strategy is involved...
My personal favorite was 2v2 with different colors for all 4 players.. So some games you had a turn after the other team, and some games you had a turn after your partner.. I loved having turn after partners.. Leaving crates for him... Or attacking a worm to blast him closer trio a spot he could be fd'd or when the worm you want to attack has piled your teammate. Place a mine for him to get a combo.. Lots of strategy and skill involved....
The entire scheme should be changed!! Dammit
Yes, but I hated the strategy of killing 1 worm as soon as possible.
How about asking the top 5 of each scheme about their opinion and how they would want to improve the scheme? I mean they are probably the most qualified to raise concerns if the scheme is fine or not and if the scheme needs adjustments. If the top5 think it is fair and good as it is then it probably is and they are top5 for a reason. :)
You want us to take an opinion, on who to take am opinion from a guy whos opinion is to no longer play thisgame? :p
I don't think 5 guys should determine the out come of rfd entire community because they are top rated... Thats my opinion
Quote from: DeathInFire on January 31, 2012, 11:30 PM
How about asking the top 5 of each scheme about their opinion and how they would want to improve the scheme? I mean they are probably the most qualified to raise concerns if the scheme is fine or not and if the scheme needs adjustments. If the top5 think it is fair and good as it is then it probably is and they are top5 for a reason. :)
That's highly irrelevant and illogical... it doesn't matter who is presenting the argument, as long as it is logically sound. It kind of works like the logical fallacy of guilt by association, except you'd be favoring a position instead of condemning it due to who is presenting it... I don't care if Mablak comes here and says the scheme shouldn't be changed and there is no crate luck, because that doesn't change the FACT that the game engine can prevent you from making an attack, the basic function of the scheme. You need facts and empiricism when dealing with an argument, it doesn't matter who the presenter is
If TuS don't make schemes better, just make another League, i'll support it, I know lalo would too, and I bet at least 100 other players would.
If not, then just play people you want, make your own rules up, and pretend you played by TuS rules, they can't REALLY do anything about it.
u know u are gonna change nothing , right? roper is gonna stay as it is , thats for sure ..
the only thing i can see is that u gonna make another new scheme based on roper (good thing imo), with all those rules that u are proposing ... call it Hystroper when u make it , pls ! xD
Keep it as it is.
can we just vote??????????
Quote from: Komito on February 01, 2012, 04:55 AM
If TuS don't make schemes better, just make another League, i'll support it, I know lalo would too, and I bet at least 100 other players would.
If not, then just play people you want, make your own rules up, and pretend you played by TuS rules, they can't REALLY do anything about it.
?
Guaton, your a skilled roper.. You think it should be called hystroper? Do you really believe you need 25 second total turn time to complete a turn? Go play shoppas :/
Quote from: Crazy on February 01, 2012, 10:32 AM
Quote from: Komito on February 01, 2012, 04:55 AM
If TuS don't make schemes better, just make another League, i'll support it, I know lalo would too, and I bet at least 100 other players would.
If not, then just play people you want, make your own rules up, and pretend you played by TuS rules, they can't REALLY do anything about it.
?
Lol I know it was a bit random, I am just saying what ALOT of people already do, they play altered schemes.
If 2 people agree on a Roper with avi's rules and report it as a TuS Roper, who's gonna know if no one makes a complaint or checks the game etc?
Me and dibz tried it before,.because we both prefer w2 rope, and the game was voided (b4 out was accepted as tus scheme)
Quote from: Kaleu on February 01, 2012, 08:30 PM
Nah.
w2 is w2
W:A is W:A
If you want w2 roper install it, and comeback to it.
Quote from: Kaleu on February 01, 2012, 08:31 PM
Quote from: Kaleu on February 01, 2012, 08:30 PM
Nah.
w2 is w2
W:A is W:A
If you want w2 roper install it, and comeback to it.
You don't have a f@#!ing clue . . . .
Hes talking about the scheme
But i'm talking about the changes.