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April 25, 2024, 10:01 PM

Author Topic: Scheme variations / Official rules / Is it a mess? Could we do better?  (Read 1193 times)

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Offline TheKomodo

I have been thinking a lot recently about the condition of this League and it's potential future, the current boost of activity and trying to use and amplify that boost to further increase and improve website activity in all areas.

Also, i'd just like to take a moment before proceeeding to mention and appreciate the immense jump in activity recently:

  • Clanners are alive again! - Multiple clans have been very active recently and it's actually exciting again!
  • Singles are also popping off again!
  • For both of the above, both TUS Allround League and TUS Free League have been sharing a lot of activity and enthusiasm.
  • AQUA won their first ever Clanner and their reaction was f**king heartwarming! That was actually awesome to see after 22 years people can still react like that!
  • New Challenges are being created, old records being broken and new ones being made!
  • Cups are seeing a lot of activity and effort recently!
  • The 80hp Tournaments were very successful and I plan on making more Tournaments for other schemes such as TTRR, Elite, and others.
  • Not to mention Mablak and RuffledBricks are representing our entire game by smashing speedruns in Deathmatch and Missions! Gratz guys!
  • Last but not least, thanks to Deadcode and CyberShadow because the 3.8+ updates are as huge a step for me personally, as the very first update with replays and colour maps.

I don't care what anyone says, Worms Armageddon is popping off again right now, and it's awesome!



With that being said, the following is purely restricted to TUS Leagues, it has absolutely no relevance to TUS Cups, TUS Tournaments or TUS Challenges.



Can we use whatever settings we want for TUS Leagues now?



A Tower Race was played with 35s instead of 40s:

https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-228018/



In Roper, I often ask for extra hotseat time on complex maps so you can plan your route with the most challenging crates.



Big RR and Tower Race should have separate schemes anyway, Big RR doesn't need teleport, both schemes directly benefit from having anti-sink enabled so players can play with 1 worm, instead of 3-4. As well as Tower Race having teleport on top of anti-sink.

In fact, if you actually browse the official page of scheme rules on TUS you are going to be quite shocked:

Quote from: Big RR/Tower Rules
Big RR / Tower
Scheme for Big RR / Tower Race

RacingStuff must be activated before starting the game (using /rs command).

Rules:
- 3 worms at start (if the map doesn't have plops, 1 worm is fine)
- Rope from Start to Finish.
- The player who reaches the finish with less turns wins. If you finish on the same turn, the remaining turn time decides.
- If you plop, then use teleport to place where you started the last turn.

https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/rules/

So literally every Big RR has been played with the wrong scheme, at least for a very long time, as it says it must be played with 3 Worms at start.



The clan 'ob' requested us('db') if we would agree to play ZaR Roper, is that actually allowed? If ZaR is allowed, why isn't 80hp allowed instead of Intermediate, ZaR is completely different to Roper, as is 80hp to Intermediate.



Quote from: Official BnG Rules
Stay on your half of the map

This is not followed strictly enough to be honest.

Quote from: Official BnG Rules
If you break any of the rules mentioned above, you have to do the same damage to yourself as you previously inflicted.

Has anyone ever actually tried dealing an exact damage to themselves as they done to their opponent? Even for me it's close to impossible unless it was a sitter.

I think we can improve this rule.



I think a few TFL schemes need reworking as well, for example Forts feels very unbalanced, saying "No Big Maps" so that means anything bigger than 1920x696? Because of such a small size map, having 2 HHG and a Banana Bomb is highly OP, it's unbalanced as a scheme although it's fine if using bigger maps. Also sudden death feels like it comes way too quickly in Forts, 12 minutes? For an artillery scheme? Really?? I know Hysteria has like 10 seconds though that's based on turns missed or something and can theoretically go on for hours?



As much as I love it, Darts is an absolute mess considering how much the scheme relies on carefully designed maps with different map-specific rules, I wish there was a way to simplify it. So this comes with so much rule breaking related to correct connection and launching points, and other map-specific rules.



The Kaos rules could be clearer, although the scheme itself has victories per match set to 3, it doesn't actually say Best of 5 in the scheme description, that would help.



Bungee Race could benefit from having anti-sink enabled, otherwise if you plop do you instantly lose? There is no rule about it, although players generally host again and teleport to their previous positions, anti-sink would help speed up the process making it more efficient.



How flexible are we allowed to be with TFL(TUS Free League) compared to TAL(TUS Allround League)? Are we looking at TFL as being less important than TAL therefor people can pretty much do whatever they want there?

I haven't really looked at other schemes yet, i'm sure there are other players with their own questions.



I'm not fussed what TUS staff allow and don't allow, i'm just looking to be aware of what can and cannot be done. If we're allowed to make modifications there's some i'd love to apply myself and I know for a fact others would love that too, the evidence is already here in games which have already been reported and requests to use variations.

The whole thing is challenging to control because TUS has grown more than I think any of us ever imagined, there are 32 schemes, 11 Allround and 21 Free. With that many schemes it's pretty much expected people are going to have their favourite variations, so should we just start letting people use whatever scheme modifications they want so long as Playoff matches are strictly the official League Schemes with absolutely no modifications allowed?

Of course we're not talking play Roper and report it as Elite, it has to match the fundamental ideas of the original scheme:

  • So Big RR with rubberworm enabled, or Big RR with infinite time and play as a time trial, or Big ZaR RR, or Big RR with 30s and Banana, i'm happy with all these because the basic fundamental idea is still there - Race from start to finish on a huge map.
  • TTRR, use however many worms you want, measure in seconds or milliseconds, use rubberworm, whatever, the fundamental idea is still there - Get from A to B faster than your opponent.
  • 80hp or Intermediate, or the actual original Intermediate with crates, the fundamental is still there, use a combination of strategic skills and mechanical skills to outplay and outthink your opponent.

^^ So long as 2 opponents agree, and only IF they agree.

Perhaps, what if, and i'm fantasizing here... We allow these variations, and whichever variation is used most in a season, becomes the official playoff version for the next season? Stop things from becoming stale, adds some spice and variety to the game, and less people will feel left out!

Of course, MonkeyIsland may yet implement the idea that was suggested recently for the new league concept with pre-curated filters and would fix this issue anyway.


Offline Lupastic

Quote from: Big RR/Tower Rules
Big RR / Tower
Scheme for Big RR / Tower Race

RacingStuff must be activated before starting the game (using /rs command).

Rules:
- 3 worms at start (if the map doesn't have plops, 1 worm is fine)
- Rope from Start to Finish.
- The player who reaches the finish with less turns wins. If you finish on the same turn, the remaining turn time decides.
- If you plop, then use teleport to place where you started the last turn.

^ Those are very outdated since a long time. As most of the tus schemes for tfl schemes as well. They all need some update, golf, battle race, bungee race, boom race, etc, the last was like 11 years ago.
Sometimes I don't feel like playing allround schemes either as tus game, because the tus schemes provided for them makes them f@#!ing boring to me. ie: shopper, wxw shopper, the scheme options there are too dull and simple

Offline FoxHound

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Amazing considerations, Komito. Nice post.

I would like to say that Bungee Race the way it is right now is torture to me. I hope Bungee racers don't crucify me for saying this, but I don't like to walk to the same spot every time you fail a bungee fly (that are usually very hard to me, so it makes you go back, many, many times). I really think many races NEED a feature like "Save State" used in emulators or at least a rule that allows you teleport back to a place if you fall. Tower Race is the most notable example that, as Komito stated, NEED a teleport. Boom for Weapons, Drive for Weapons and even Boom Race or Battle Race would benefit a lot by a save state feature or tele back rule.

I agree that Tower (Rope) Race is different than Big RR. This is something I actually plan to change on the wiki, because there it is written that Tower Rope Race is the same thing as a BIG RR but with a high map, that is not true. I realized this playing with Rio: Tower Rope Race maps are much more creative in general and are usually more challenging to players once different than usual parts make players think well before they rope.

Edit: ah... By the way... The save state feature would be very interesting in battle schemes too. It would change the gameplay completely: imagine if you have the power to go back to a spot after attacking the enemy at a risky place... Let's say each player has the right to use this 3 times per game, it would be amazing to see the plays.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 02:58 AM by FoxHound »
I doubt you see this link moving below (you will have to zoom in. If you click at it, you will have maden the impossible):
'

Offline TheKomodo

Oh I knew there was something I forgot...

Keep in mind, MonkeyIsland said he was designing TUS 2.0 so to speak, a mobile app and updating the website.

I imagine some changes will be applied there.

Offline SIBASA

I am interested in the question, if my opponent or clan chooses a scheme from TAL, can I choose a scheme from TFL? Lately, many games have not taken place due to the fact that the player wants to play in only one league.

About the schemes - I agree that the forts scheme needs to be edited.

I would also like to draw your attention to the flag capture scheme - the description says that it was made for bigger maps and you need to adjust the time if you use a smaller maps, but what size is considered big and how small? How much should the time be reduced? This is very important because sometimes you can use low gravity and a parachute to get to a enemy flag in one move.

It is necessary to replace the golf scheme so that the grenade does not explode. You can take the scheme that HostingBuddy offers.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 09:18 AM by SIBASA »

Offline Senator

@Big RR
- We haven't reviewed that Big RR game that was played with 35s turn time yet. Considering the original scheme had 30s + retreat, 35s sounds like a small change to me.
- The rule says you can play with 1 worm if the map is suitable for that. 3 worms is needed only when there's a chance that either team dies.
- Anti-sink allows you to continue your turn after you plop so it does more than just prevents a team from dying. We need a proper discussion before enabling it.

@Roper
- Changing hot-seat time from 5s to 10-15s sounds ok to me. Need to ask MI.
- ZaR Roper isn't allowed I think. Need to ask MI.

@BnG
- Can you show some example where "stay on your half of the map" wasn't followed stricly enough? At least that rule is simplier than the previous rule.
- "If you break any of the rules mentioned above, you have to do the same damage to yourself as you previously inflicted." <- imo this could be just skip turn and reduce the damage dealt so that you die when you have 44 hp left, for example.

@Free league vs Allround league
- There was a Kaos Normal game that was reported as Kaos Pro. We didn't void that game but told the players to use the Kaos Pro scheme from now on. So I believe further Kaos Normal games would get voided.

The problem is that we don't have clear guidelines for scheme modifications. I started a thread about it some time ago but we haven't made any decision yet. I was personally thinking this kind of list of allowed modifications. Some of the modifications would be allowed for historical reasons (default scheme of WA, ranked channel scheme etc).
 
Spoiler! View

Intermediate
- Weapon/utility/health crate probabilities
- Weapon power (or more precisely "Cluster Bomb power 2-3", for example)
- Weapon delay
- Hot-seat time

Elite
- Weapon/utility/health crate probabilities
- Weapon power
- Weapon delay
- Hot-seat time

Team17
- Weapon crate probabilities
- Weapon power
- Weapon delay
- Girder ammo
- Select Worm ammo
- Round time
- Hot-seat time
- Number of objects
- Water rise level

Hysteria
- Round time
- Hot-seat time

Aerial
- Weapon/utility/health crate probabilities
- Round time
- Uzi ammo
- Petrol ammo
- Mortar ammo
- Mine fuse time
- Hot-seat time

BnG
- Initial health
- Hot-seat time

Shopper
- Weapon crate probabilities
- Weapon power
- Bazooka ammo
- Hot-seat time

Roper
- Weapon delay
- Weapon power
- Health crate value
- Hot-seat time

Big RR
- Turn time 30-40
- Banana Bomb ammo
- RubberWorm anti-sink
- Hot-seat time

WxW
- Weapon crate probabilities
- Weapon power
- Hot-seat time

Offline TheKomodo

Thank you for the reply Senator, that all sounds very promising!

Didn't get a chance to reply yesterday due to all the Clanners! How pleasantly surprising is that!

Big RR / Tower Race:

I support anti-sink in both Big RR and Tower Race, as their own individual scheme. I see two possibilities after adding anti-sink:

  • Player must skip turn after plopping.
  • Player is allowed to continue after plopping.

Personally, I am in favour of allowing to continue after plopping. My reasoning is that anti-sink will automatically teleport you to the last position your worm was standing disconnected from the Rope. For example, if you 1st turn gets 37 seconds ahead then plops, you will be back at the start, it's quite fair regardless if it was a loss of control plop or not.

Comparing Big RR to schemes such as Bungee Race, if you plop in Bungee Race, they would rehost and teleport back to last positions, in the past people have done the same thing and just rehosted teleporting back to their last position anyway.

The scheme still hugely benefits the people who rope faster and more consistently.

In Tower Race, generally speaking the reason why we had multiple worms and teleport is because it was expected many worms would perish. This way it's doing the exact same thing only more efficient(and think about all the extra cute little wormy lives we'd be saving!).  :D



BnG:

As for finding an example, this isn't something i've seen happen in a recent game so i'd have to go digging through replays over the past few years. It's really just something I wanted to point out so people pay attention to it, more of a personal concern.

You know i'm a BnG nerd so I may be overthinking it more than others.

The "stay on your half of the map" not being followed strictly enough is simply because it's not exactly clear where the exact middle of the map is, and on rare occassions, i've watched games where opponents have invaded the other half by a very small amount, even just by 1 hide.

It usually happens when it's 1v1, or 1v2, i've never seen it in 2v2 as far as I recall. It usually happens when the lone player is right back next to the water, that's when opponents have a tendency to come as close as possible, it's like forcing and backing someone into a corner, it's kind of a subconscious thing as well I guess.

Though that might not seem like a big problem at first, when you understand your opponents strengths and weaknesses and deliberately hide out of reach of their distant enough shots, and have destroyed all their other hides, why should they be allowed to use your side?



Forts:

SIBASA and I would like to propose changing the Forts scheme to 20 minutes for SD and slower water rise. The reasoning for this proposal is due to the current balance of the scheme.

Currently you get 4 worms, with 200hp each, making a total of 800hp. Even with my level of skill with BnG it's pretty much impossible to win the match before SD and water rises, in fact every game we've played so far was won when water had almost consumed us all, due to being unprotected from the water, even if your team performs way above average.

Water Rise should help end the game when it's going on too long, it should not decide the game for us.

In a 1v1 you can use the 3 worm selects for all 4 worms, while in Clanners(2v2) you can only control 2 worms at a time, so when the water rises there's next to no protection after a certain point because of the weapon set given to us. This makes protection against this game mechanic unbalanced and unfair, as you can't just stay at the top the entire time because then you are open to attack from your opponent.

With 20 minutes and slower water rise, it would make the game more focused on artillery skill with accuracy and consistency, meaning water rise is a last resort for those who can skillfully hide their worms until the end, or a punishment for those who genuinely suck at the game. Players would be able to hide more spread out around the map and use it for protection more.

As it stands it feels like skills with artillery weapons are not important when you can simply wait it out till the end and hope to get lucky with your banana and LG.

-----

Also, we would like to allow changing the scheme to use infinite ammo for low gravity on the maps where it's impossible to reach the other side without low gravity when using grenades.

We also believe the rules description should delete "No Big Maps" because big maps should be allowed, there are so many good maps which are only slightly wider than standard.



Proposal for BnG agred rulese:

That list you shared is great, knowing the things we can modify, if agreed of course.

I'd like to propose that BnG can be agreed to be played with their own house rules.

For example, players can agree to allow sitters and 5s grenades if they choose, as well as straight shots, hide anywhere on the map, play with absolutely no rules. This is not changing the current weapon set though.

The current rules are aimed at very experienced players, beginner games take far too long because they simply don't have the skill to hit direct shots. If we give them more flexibility in the rules, they might enjoy it more, and through that enjoyment, may even become interested to improve enough so they can play with the more advanced player rules.

Also, the same treatment can be given to advanced players, they can agree to "no repeat shots", or whatever other house rules they wish.

Keep in mind these house rules, do not affect the scheme settings, it's what is allowed inside the actual game only.

Of course, in every single TUS scheme, if players cannot agree, the official scheme must be used.











Offline SIBASA

Forts:

SIBASA and I would like to propose changing the Forts scheme to 20 minutes for SD and slower water rise. The reasoning for this proposal is due to the current balance of the scheme.

Currently you get 4 worms, with 200hp each, making a total of 800hp. Even with my level of skill with BnG it's pretty much impossible to win the match before SD and water rises, in fact every game we've played so far was won when water had almost consumed us all, due to being unprotected from the water, even if your team performs way above average.

Water Rise should help end the game when it's going on too long, it should not decide the game for us.

In a 1v1 you can use the 3 worm selects for all 4 worms, while in Clanners(2v2) you can only control 2 worms at a time, so when the water rises there's next to no protection after a certain point because of the weapon set given to us. This makes protection against this game mechanic unbalanced and unfair, as you can't just stay at the top the entire time because then you are open to attack from your opponent.

With 20 minutes and slower water rise, it would make the game more focused on artillery skill with accuracy and consistency, meaning water rise is a last resort for those who can skillfully hide their worms until the end, or a punishment for those who genuinely suck at the game. Players would be able to hide more spread out around the map and use it for protection more.

As it stands it feels like skills with artillery weapons are not important when you can simply wait it out till the end and hope to get lucky with your banana and LG.

-----

Also, we would like to allow changing the scheme to use infinite ammo for low gravity on the maps where it's impossible to reach the other side without low gravity when using grenades.

We also believe the rules description should delete "No Big Maps" because big maps should be allowed, there are so many good maps which are only slightly wider than standard.



I support Komito's suggestions on increasing the time to SD and slowly raising the water + permission to make infinite low gravity, provided that the bigger maps are used.

Offline TheKomodo

We just tested this scheme proposal for Forts, I forgot how SD works lol.

15 minutes, with slow water rise is much better. 20 minutes is too long.

Offline Korydex

I suggest changing some of standard Free league schemes.
Battle Race: current version has many weird weapons. Me, Deadcode, TheWalrus and other battle racers use this classic scheme in our games.
* BR.wsc (0.22 kB - downloaded 22 times.)

Forts: I think this old Forts scheme is better, it has more round time before SD, less OP weaps like banana.
* Fort.wsc (0.22 kB - downloaded 23 times.)

Mole Shopper: perhaps this optimised scheme would be better.
* Mole Shopper Optimised.wsc (0.29 kB - downloaded 21 times.)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 01:13 PM by Korydex »

Offline TheKomodo

Likewise I think Forts should get rid of banana, it's too OP, even for noobs. More round time before SD is a must I reckon.

Although I don't know what other differences are there.

The scheme is quite dependent on the map style I think.

Big maps require infinite low gravity to even reach with grenades and using 1-9s fuse time would be better as well.

Small maps are fine with limited low gravity and 5s fuse, the current scheme is good if you remove banana and make water rise lower with 15 minutes before SD, in my opinion.

In an ideal world, we'd have a scheme for small maps and a scheme for huge maps.

Keep in mind, worms have 200hp each so 800hp is a lot, 2xHHG is fine.

Offline Korydex

Who knows why sheep has delay in elite?

Offline TheWalrus

Who knows why sheep has delay in elite?
Can new version of worms finally fix elite scheme so hhg isnt so delayed?  as a holy man i take offense to this.

Offline giJo

Quote
Can new version of worms finally fix elite scheme so hhg isnt so delayed?  as a holy man i take offense to this.

my man walrus wants to deliver surprises asap