What about draws?

[Peja]

Am i forced to play a rematch after my league game ended in a draw?  Rules just say i need to play the pick, the pick is kinda finished once the game ends.
It feels like a total waste of time to play 3 full Team 17 games in a row to gain louzy 30 points while you play over an hour. Sadly some players prefer this playstyle, even more sad, is them being supported by a specific mod 
Would it be possible to add draws to the league and just divide the points each player would win through 3 or 4?
This could save some time and reward players if they achieve a draw with a good player. As long as we keep the current system, the draw will always favor the better player. I think it should be the other way around.
 

[TheKomodo]

Great idea but wouldn't work this way:

Would it be possible to add draws to the league and just divide the points each player would win through 3 or 4?

Remember it's ELO system, so you are taking points from your opponent, or losing them to your opponent.

So if you draw, well, technically nothing would happen?

[TheWalrus]

If the game is a draw, it should be considered played in my opinion.  Rematching after a draw should be optional rather than mandatory.  The most anyone should be obligated to play at any time should be 1 game, not 2 t17 games and 1:30 of game time. 

Dunno about the points part though.

[avirex]

dunno if points are needed...all though, i do see peja's point...

just the work involved for MI to recode everything (i would imagine its a lot, dunno) im not sure is worth it...

but i agree with peja, and walrus... the rules are to play the pick... if its a draw, if everyone agrees they can RM...  change pick... or just end as a draw, and move to others teams pick.


because i agree... its rly frustrating to play t17 for an hour, then have to rematch over it, if not for a 3rd time. especially if your the kind of guy that was not too interested in playing it the first game.

[lales]

Sometimes in WO tourneys when it was t17 tourney, many times we just played a rematch, just starting 1 or 2 turns before SD.
That`s save time, but im agree with Peja and walrus about that pick is played if it happens a draw

[DarkOne]

Remember it's ELO system, so you are taking points from your opponent, or losing them to your opponent.

So if you draw, well, technically nothing would happen?

No, that's not how the Éló system works. Basically, it uses a formula to determine from your rating and your opponents rating what your predicted result would be (anything in between 0 and 1). It then deducts that from the score you actually got and multiplies that with a fixed number (different for every league, it's called the K factor). The number you get then if the change in your rating.

Example (let's take a K factor of 30, which is standard in chess - I'm guessing TUS uses a higher number)
If I were to play against a really good player, the expected result would be 0.12 (in 100 games, I'd win 12 and lose the rest, so to speak).

I win: 1-0.12 = +0.88, so the rating change will be 30*0.88 = +26.4
I lose: 0-0.12 = -0.12, so the rating change will be 30*-0.12 = -3.6
I draw: 0.5-0.12 = +0.38, so the rating change will be 30*0.38 = +11.4

The opponent's expected result would be 0.88, so you can do the same calculations to get to that person's rating change:
I win: 30*(0-0.88)= -26.4
I lose: 30*(1-0.88) = +3.6
I draw: 30*(0.5-0.88) = -11.4

The bigger the k factor, the bigger the rating change will be (though considering every calculation uses the same k factor, it doesn't really matter how high it is)

[TheKomodo]

It was my fault for rushing that post, I know how ELO calculates results with that, but I never took into consideration how it would work for a draw.

Why don't we implement this for draws then? I think it would really help

[Husk]

Remember it's ELO system, so you are taking points from your opponent, or losing them to your opponent.

So if you draw, well, technically nothing would happen?

No, that's not how the Éló system works. Basically, it uses a formula to determine from your rating and your opponents rating what your predicted result would be (anything in between 0 and 1). It then deducts that from the score you actually got and multiplies that with a fixed number (different for every league, it's called the K factor). The number you get then if the change in your rating.

Example (let's take a K factor of 30, which is standard in chess - I'm guessing TUS uses a higher number)
If I were to play against a really good player, the expected result would be 0.12 (in 100 games, I'd win 12 and lose the rest, so to speak).

I win: 1-0.12 = +0.88, so the rating change will be 30*0.88 = +26.4
I lose: 0-0.12 = -0.12, so the rating change will be 30*-0.12 = -3.6
I draw: 0.5-0.12 = +0.38, so the rating change will be 30*0.38 = +11.4

The opponent's expected result would be 0.88, so you can do the same calculations to get to that person's rating change:
I win: 30*(0-0.88)= -26.4
I lose: 30*(1-0.88) = +3.6
I draw: 30*(0.5-0.88) = -11.4

The bigger the k factor, the bigger the rating change will be (though considering every calculation uses the same k factor, it doesn't really matter how high it is)

that is very good post, i was gonna post very short version yesterday but was tired... mentioning the third options incase of example long game of t17 draw: in this lower rating winning 11.4 points and higher rating player losing 11.4 points

or just no report.. xD

but yeah there's not many draws in tfl... so I wudn't know

[Senator]

This thread is more about hate for T17 Better fix T17 before this happens cos it's so easy to force a draw in T17. In Roper you may play a perfect game and if you don't sui for a draw, the opponent wins. So you could lose points for playing a perfect game.. I like this idea for TTRR tho

[Hussar]

Its so easy to fix the scheme.
For example just add 1 homing to the inventory.
No big deal.

[Husk]

or make going on roof legal xD

[TheWalrus]

cos it's so easy to force a draw in T17.

You just articulated why I shouldnt have to play a second t17 pick after the first is a draw

[avirex]

This thread is more about hate for T17 Better fix T17 before this happens cos it's so easy to force a draw in T17. In Roper you may play a perfect game and if you don't sui for a draw, the opponent wins. So you could lose points for playing a perfect game.. I like this idea for TTRR tho

is every ones post about hate for t17... or is your post about love for t17??

can you really say after playing a scheme for 1 hour, and it turning into a draw (in about 50% of t17 games) that if someone has no desire to rematch that game, they hate the scheme?? 

i agree... the scheme could/should be fixed.

but as peja pointed out, the rules say you have to play the opponents pick... a draw = played... no rules say you absolutely have to play a rematch in draw games.

[Ryan]

Interesting dynamic there avi.

I've never seen 2 players (or more often clans) agree that a draw settles a match.

I can't remember if players agreed to draws back when DoNs were played.

If a draw became a legit way to settle a pick it would completely change an underdog's tactics.

Not saying that it is wrong, it might make better players play more aggressively actually...

[TheKomodo]

So it's possible to draw in every scheme except BnG since that has anchored worms and no telecide allowed.

I guess the schemes most likely for someone to force a draw would be Team17 and Hysteria? At least those are the ones i've saw the most draws in the past 3-4 years or so.

It happens in other schemes also, but most people enjoy playing another Roper or WxW or Elite, even Hysteria(for most, I know some hate it though) don't they?

Would I be correct in assuming Team17 is the scheme most people dread rematching because of a draw?

I really like this idea of a draw, not having to play the rematch, and still scoring points against someone better than you, I would consider that respectable then you might even have time to play 2 more fresh picks?

I've thought of a possible drawback here, 2 players could agree to draw some games to gain a few points/wins, which could possibly have an influence on Playoffs, what do you think of that?