poker advice

[zippeurfou]

Hey guys,
I was playing poker the other day and I was winning hard on the table when I lost almost everything in one draw.
Since some of you seems to be very good poker gambler I'd like to know what you'd have done (same or not ?). This topic is just in order to have some inexperienced player getting advice from "real" experienced people in order to improve their overall skills about actual real case. Please if you're not an experienced player just don't give advice. I myself won 2 tourney (not big one just you know some bar tourney with 20 people) and I am seeking advice from someone experienced not someone who just play for fun.
So here is the case:
Context:
I am leading the table. I've been taking down 4 players in the last 30 minutes and so I assume I am somehow "feared". Since I am leading the table hard and I don't want anyone to catch up with me I decide to enter in a "semi" bluff strat for the next two draw if I have the card to do so. Luckily it is the case and I just raise of 5x blind each time and everyone quit so I get their blind and confirm my hand over the game. Note: my semi bluff was with ace + jack and queen king which was pretty good card.
Here come the third draw, I got 2 kings. Seing that they started to get irritated about me raising. I assume that if I do it again at least one person will follow and since my hand is very strong I more likely to win or either not be out of jetons.
Here I put my 5x blind and the second leading the table call and another one also.
We got:
2 4 8 (no color possible). Since I see that the last one is on the verge of dying I decide to raise so he does all in. They both call me. So it is now me against the second leading.
There come a 10:
I call, he raise by 10x blind. Here I still believe that he got two of a kind but my two kings will beat him. So I call.
Last card:
I don't remember but a low card I believe with no color or no straight possible. It's only about two of a kind. I call and he raise of 20x blind and I calls up. I could see it was risky because he raised for the two past cards but I still think the odds are for me since 5x blind was a lot for him and I don't see anyone sane calling without high card and I got two kings !
He had two aces ! So I lost.

After this, he was the only one leading by so far as the rest was only surviving and we could never catch up.
My question is:
Would an experienced player would have done otherwise ? How so ? And how would you have judged this situation was too risky ?

[ShyGuy]

It's hard to get someone with pocket aces to fold before the flop or when they see the flop and it's all trash cards.  I don't believe you could have gotten this man to fold for this situation, however I notice a different problem:

When you have a strong hand like KK, you shouldn't be letting people see 3 or 4 cards for a cheap price.  If someone has A3 and the flop is 2 4 8, if you don't push them out soon, they could hit the straight and now you're f@#!ed.

[sock]

When you said "I called", I assume you mean checked,  you have to think he has a high pair or a pair atleast, maybe ak aq to call you on the first raise in the first place. very possible he could of had two 8's and hit three of a kind or 3 10's, but if he raises you 10x big blind after the fourth card, and i assume you had no money left after this hand, since you said he had a big lead over everyone, so you had to put all your chips in the pot on a pair of kings after 5 cards are on the board and he's betting the turn and river. Risky Indeed.

[franz]

The quality of advice is better if you leave out what cards he had, since we'll need to form our opinion from the cards dealt and the player conditions you describe.  That said, you're memory is less than optimal, like the river card (any low card actually COULD complete a straight, so you shouldn't say it was impossible), and you gave us no insight on the behavior or patterns of the villain you're up against.

I don't like your turn and river 'call' open bets you do.  You're showing weakness, and aren't getting enough good information when he raises to 10x or 20x.  Had you opened higher, it might be easier to get away if there's a huge raise, since they know you've been crazy betting 3 times in a row, and they're trying to trap you into the right situation, like how this guy played you.

The best chance for you to fold was the river I think, but even then, it's not what I'd call an 'easy fold'.  Unless you can give more exact details, like the exact river card (heh), I and others could give a better opinion.

Generally, once you start feeling such a strong resistance after you've been rolling over the table, they could really have something over you, even though you have 2 kings.

[zippeurfou]

First, thanks for your answers and sorry for the english.
Shyguy, on the table we were about 8 people. After the initial bet we were 3. So I believe the initial bet wasn't that bad. The other man standing did a all in with jack queen. He was out of the game after this one. So basically, it was only him and me.
I was the one leading sock. He was almost all in while I still had some chips (but not enough after this to compete seriously with him. If I had to put weight I'd say that the average table had 2, he had 6 and I had 9 since he put almost all in and I called it hurts me really bad).
Franz, I agree with you and must admit that I don't totally recall exactly all the card on the table but what I am sure of is that there was no potential color and that I wasn't worried about the straight (which I agree is not enough information by itself).
Franz, thanks for your advice. As you said, my memory here is a problem which is not really helping at all. As I said, somehow I wasn't worried about straight. It might be possible the straight was possible with the river. Anyhow, do you think after several hours someone who is second in the chips will raise that hard betting all on one card or a straight of low card straight from the blind ? I just thought it was very unlikely.
To be honest this guy after this was in his lucky day. He got a straight flush later on and other very low probability card. But before he won most of his coins by raising in sort of the other fold and he didn't have to show his cards and mostly when he had to he lost it. That's why in my opinion I felt wrongly confident. I guess my problem here was that I couldn't imagine that someone would follow me on the blind and not have high card and I felt to confident then with my kk.
It's indeed hard to ask how would you guy reacted judging that you weren't there. Folding wasn't easy either. As you said Franz and as I said, I could see that he was trying to get more chips out of me but still, would you guys have fold ? My problem to be honest is that even now if the same situation come by I'm not sure it is the smartest thing to fold.
Anyhow, tomorrow I have another tourney. If I see a delicate case like this one I'll report it here so we can discuss about it (and this time with better details). 

[sock]

I meant leading after the hand. if he has 6 and you 9 thats 2/3rds of your stack, it also helps to know the exact amounts of chips everyone had and the blinds, like 2000, 6000, 9000 with 400/200 big blind small blind. Also  many factors with the opponents gameplay throughout the tournement.

[Dub-c]

It is impossible to follow your hand history. So it is hard to comment on how you played the hand. You left out some very important details like stack sizes, pot size, blinds, position etc. So the gist of it is you lost KK vs AA? Probably a cooler. The most important thing is how you played the hand, not the outcome, but I can't really say as I can't follow the action.

I'll give you an example of how to post a hand history in case you want advise in the future.

(15/30 blinds)

BTN: 6,216 (207.2 bb)
SB: 6,040 (201.3 bb)
Hero (BB): 2,970 (99 bb)


Preflop: Hero is BB with 7c 7h
6 folds, BTN raises to 90, SB folds, Hero calls 60

Flop: (195) 2s 6c 6h (2 players)
Hero bets 120, BTN calls 120

Turn: (435) Jh (2 players)
Hero bets 270, BTN raises to 540, Hero

[KinslayeR]

dude, poker is not about skill so dont ask what would we do.. I lost like 10 times on AA (the best possible cards) coz someone just "for fun" give all in  on 29 , and there on table just right now comes 2 and 9. And it was in 20$ tourney.
My the best funny situation, 3 first cards on table: 9 10 J ( NO COLOR POSSIBLITY) I have  Q K so i have the best solution, someone do ALL IN , i played it (coz wtf i should do) next 2 cards are Q K,  he had 10A, he won, coz he has higher 10 J Q K A exeactly 2 cards he needed..
Don't tell me it is skill, of course, but not more than 10-15 %, if u dont have luck u never should start with gambling, coz u will always find a person on table who dont care about moneys and dont give a shit about cards, then u will loose AA on 29 like me thousands times.
Anyway good luck, thats all u need

[sock]

dude, poker is not about skill so dont ask what would we do.. I lost like 10 times on AA (the best possible cards) coz someone just "for fun" give all in  on 29 , and there on table just right now comes 2 and 9. And it was in 20$ tourney.
My the best funny situation, 3 first cards on table: 9 10 J ( NO COLOR POSSIBLITY) I have  Q K so i have the best solution, someone do ALL IN , i played it (coz wtf i should do) next 2 cards are Q K,  he had 10A, he won, coz he has higher 10 J Q K A exeactly 2 cards he needed..
Don't tell me it is skill, of course, but not more than 10-15 %, if u dont have luck u never should start with gambling, coz u will always find a person on table who dont care about moneys and dont give a shit about cards, then u will loose AA on 29 like me thousands times.
Anyway good luck, thats all u need

bank-roll management

[Dub-c]

dude, poker is not about skill so dont ask what would we do.. I lost like 10 times on AA (the best possible cards) coz someone just "for fun" give all in  on 29 , and there on table just right now comes 2 and 9. And it was in 20$ tourney.
My the best funny situation, 3 first cards on table: 9 10 J ( NO COLOR POSSIBLITY) I have  Q K so i have the best solution, someone do ALL IN , i played it (coz wtf i should do) next 2 cards are Q K,  he had 10A, he won, coz he has higher 10 J Q K A exeactly 2 cards he needed..
Don't tell me it is skill, of course, but not more than 10-15 %, if u dont have luck u never should start with gambling, coz u will always find a person on table who dont care about moneys and dont give a shit about cards, then u will loose AA on 29 like me thousands times.
Anyway good luck, thats all u need

Just LOL typical fish logic

164,381,184  games     0.001 secs   164,381,184,000  games/sec

Board:
Dead: 

           equity            win            tie                  pots won        pots tied   
Hand 0:    87.138%     86.93%    00.21%         142892916    346218.00   { AA }
Hand 1:    12.862%     12.65%    00.21%          20795832       346218.00   { 92s, 92o }

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variance

[TheWalrus]

giving advice without your seat position relative to your opponent is not advice at all.  in addition, your bet sizes are a little suspect.  5x BB opener to a 10 BB re-raise is something i haven't seen in a long time. 

[Aerox]

Was this a one game (or two) college table with friends? Because advice is extremely limited there.

[zippeurfou]

Thanks dub, I'll do it in the futur.
No king,  you're wrong but let's not debate this here please.
Nope ropa, this was a tourney and let's be frank these 3 draw (including both where I raise by a lot during the blind) was the big one during all the night.