Forums
April 25, 2024, 09:09 PM

Author Topic: "How Team17 plans to bring Worms into the world of eSports"  (Read 8246 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: "How Team17 plans to bring Worms into the world of eSports"
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2017, 08:47 PM »
What's weird to me is that T17 have mentioned, either in that article or another one, that they're fascinated by things like TUS, the worm olympics, etc, and want to capture whatever keeps WA players coming back. In which case you'd think the obvious solution would be expanding on WA itself! Or more fully copying its physics. Like, this is the only game of theirs that has already proven to have eSport potential.

Offline h3oCharles

Re: "How Team17 plans to bring Worms into the world of eSports"
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2017, 08:49 PM »
In which case you'd think the obvious solution would be expanding on WA itself!

This has Andy Davidson written all over this.
EDIT1: After some rethinking, let me elaborate on this. Deadcode and CyberShadow, WA maintainers, for what it is right now, they don't really see a massive point on developing, because mostly they do this non-commercially. While WA 4.0 is indeed "coming soon(tm)", the process is very slow because of this. I haven't seem them asking for contributors nor concept designers, either. Throwing money at them might not be effective too IMO.

You see, WA is technically our playground, while WMD for them (T17) is theirs. Trying to compete[?] with us, they seriously try to get it somehow working. They got some plans, but they make them at a slow pace, which makes sense for what kind of audiences both of those games have, compared to some mainstream games... CS:GO, LoL, Minecraft, etc.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 09:07 PM by TheMadCharles »

Offline skunk3

Re: "How Team17 plans to bring Worms into the world of eSports"
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2017, 05:14 PM »
I've been taking a little bit of a break from W:A recently to focus on WMD and some other games. Here's my updated take on WMD:

So close. SOOOO CLOSE!

The game could be awesome but there's little (and some not-so-little) things about it that totally suck. Do I think it could be an e-sport title? Sure, I guess, but W:A deserves the spot more.

Anyway, check this out... this is why I think WMD is a joke:

In addition to the typical complaints about the game (rope not being identical to W:A, crappy global chat, lack of options, etc) the main thing that I do not like about the game is that it can be very luck-based. First of all, the inclusion of vehicles changes the game completely. No longer do people have to intelligently conserve movement utilities. Certain vehicles like the helicopter, mech, and Rocket League car have INSANE movement capabilities and can easily provide 'free mobility' to the tune of many, many ropes / jetpacks. In addition to that, the vehicle attacks can 1-hit KO worms in the right spots, or at the very least do quite a bit of damage and knock worms really far.

The crafting system blows because people can craft on every single turn, and depending on the scheme, there's usually enough crafting materials available via deconstructing your items and collecting crafting crates that you can craft nearly anything. Paying attention to the items that other players use isn't a skill that is very relevant to WMD, unlike the past games. Someone can burn through their ropes and jetpacks and it means nothing. You think you're safe with the high ground? Nah. Your opponent will just craft another one, or a party balloon, or whatever. Rarely in WMD are people stuck without movement utilities.

The newest and most annoying feature that makes the crafting system even worse is the 'mischevious drone.' It is a new item that was recently added to the game. It is a drone that you can launch like a nade, but the drone is totally controllable and can grab crates, spy in buildings, activate mines, etc. The range of the drone is pretty crazy, and with it one can easily grab several crates on one turn, all without having to move their worm! The worst part is that the drone is very cheap to craft, so if there's 1-2 crafting crates on the map, using the drone literally pays for itself and deprives other players of grabbing the crates, even when they are way closer. What this means is that people can use several drones over the course of a match, collect a ton of crates without having to use any movement utilities or expose their worm(s). It's so imbalanced that it makes playing WMD a joke currently. Sure, sentry guns can shoot down drones, but 95% of the time, that's not an issue.

In order for me to enjoy playing WMD, I have to host a custom scheme that has crafting disabled, vehicles disabled, and crate drops set to a minimum amount - or completely disabled.

For example, the other day I played a match with 5% drop rates for crates, no vehicles, and a pretty balanced starting inventory with no super weapons / cheesy noob weapons. (Like bunker busters, etc.) It was a 5 player FFA and by the end of the match I had a pretty strong lead, not to mention the best positions on the map. The last opponent standing had done nothing the whole match but spam drones and hide. I had 3 worms and he had 2, and I had far more HP. Thanks to the drone, the guy was able to craft an OMG Strike which insta-killed 2 of my worms (in the best positions), which left me with 1 worm. As if that wasn't lame enough, on my next turn I went to chute over to one of his worms, which I could have plopped with a fire punch as it was SD and the water was rising. His other worm was trapped underground and he had no teleports left, so it wasn't a threat. It should have been GG, but the f@#!ing chute didn't respond to key inputs, which caused me to sink too low, land right next to a mine, and plop myself. A sure win turned into an aggravating loss.

For now, we do not have the ability to manually select what items can or cannot be crafted in a match, so we can't just completely exclude drones. Crates of any sort obviously do introduce a measure of luck into any scheme, but I think that it's generally more fun to play schemes with at least a minimal crate drop chance, just to spice things up... however, with the drone being a part of the game, I find myself wanting to completely disable crate drops, or at least disable crafting crate drops. (Btw - the ingredients contained in crafting crates are random, so you can never know what someone just got.) The coin crate system in Revolution / Clan Wars was superior because it was easy enough to keep track of how many coin crates a player has collected, so you could know what that person could possibly craft and prepare for it. With the crafting system in WMD, certain classic player skills (like keeping track of your opponent's inventory) are basically irrelevant. It doesn't matter what someone has used because they can just craft more... and craft *exactly* what they need situationally in order to go from losing to securing a win. It's a f@#!ing joke. You have the high ground and your opponent has used their movement items, air strike, and homing missile... you feel safe taking that spot on top that you know they can't hit? Well too bad, they crafted another homing missile. You're dead. Or a rope, party balloon, whatever.

On top of all of that, the community really sucks and other players will gang up on you if you show that you have skills / really know what you're doing. The 'fair play' concept in W:A doesn't exist in WMD. Generally speaking, people tend to stick to ABL, or at the very least are sensible enough to realize that focus firing on one person isn't an effective strategy 95% of the time, especially if that involves leaving yourself exposed to other players, wasting movement utilities, wasting weapons, etc.

Anyway...

WMD is a bit of a weird game because it has so much potential to be awesome, but every time I play it I am reminded of how it's off the mark. If WMD had the worm classes and water from the last couple of games INSTEAD OF vehicles and crafting, it would be a must-buy for all W:A players. For now the overall balance of the game caters to casual players and features present within the game make it far easier for lesser-skilled individuals to be able to stand a chance against pros. I dunno how many times I've been robbed of a win due to some lucky, lame shit. Yeah, I'm salty, but I'm also pointing out truth.

Hopefully they will nerf the drone and/or increase its crafting cost. It just kinda sucks that in order to play a game in which cheesy, lucky gameplay isn't a factor, I have to disable the new features of the game, lol. The real problem is that most people LOVE vehicles and crafting, because it gives them a better chance of winning, and/or they are simply ignorant of the features and gameplay of the other titles.

That said, I don't think that WMD is terrible. It looks great and CAN BE fun to play, but you just have to keep in mind that anything can happen at any time. I also don't think it's worth $30. The price is keeping a lot of people away. It should be a $20 title, as there's tons of games around the $30 mark that most people would rather buy.
           

Offline The Extremist

Re: "How Team17 plans to bring Worms into the world of eSports"
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2017, 08:26 PM »
What's weird to me is that T17 have mentioned, either in that article or another one, that they're fascinated by things like TUS, the worm olympics, etc, and want to capture whatever keeps WA players coming back. In which case you'd think the obvious solution would be expanding on WA itself! Or more fully copying its physics. Like, this is the only game of theirs that has already proven to have eSport potential.

Other game companies besides Team17 have the exact same problem of creating a hit game, following it up with something almost completely different, expanding on THAT for later entries instead of what made the series popular in the first place, then eventually adding old features for flavour when sales/popularity of the new games start shrinking, but never, EVER truly going back to the original formula.

Nintendo is one of the few game companies that consistently EXPAND on what makes their franchises great instead of CHANGING them. In fact, Japanese developers in general are more likely to stick to what works rather than reinventing the wheel.

I think it's a western, capitalistic fear of creating something that customers are so comfortable with, that they won't feel a need to buy a new version of a product. So they intentionally redesign their products just enough that they'll still sell, but keep customers wanting more. "Chasing the dragon", so to speak.

Microsoft in particular is often accused of this. Windows 98, Windows Media Player 6, the original Xbox, Halo 1, Perfect Dark 1, all considered the best, but never expanded on.

This may sound kind of like a conspiracy theory, but it sure feels like it, doesn't it?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 08:35 PM by The Extremist »

Offline Kradie

Re: "How Team17 plans to bring Worms into the world of eSports"
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2017, 08:59 PM »
Look what Sega is doing with Sonic, they went back to what worked with Sonic Mania. If only Team17 could do this with Worms, and expand from there, add a little graphic fidelity and features. Although one could just argue they did this with WMD, but in reality not so close to WA.
Global Wormin' - A Friendly Discord Worms Server
https://discord.gg/zvFwZuAKQB

Offline h3oCharles

Re: "How Team17 plans to bring Worms into the world of eSports"
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2017, 01:32 PM »
This is what you've done =)


Offline Free


Offline Sensei

Re: "How Team17 plans to bring Worms into the world of eSports"
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2017, 01:43 PM »
You guys still talking about that Jonno guy? Hahahaha you fkn serious?

Online Peja

Re: "How Team17 plans to bring Worms into the world of eSports"
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2017, 01:46 PM »
the best wmd player cant even beat me in shopper, we have every right to be elitist  ;D

Offline Sbaffo

Re: "How Team17 plans to bring Worms into the world of eSports"
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2017, 02:58 PM »
This is what you've done =)



Where did that conversation take place? I want to join it.

Online TheWalrus

Re: "How Team17 plans to bring Worms into the world of eSports"
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2017, 04:34 PM »


You know, I've been thinking about this.  I always felt people were assholes to jonno, acting like little children, making fun of his blue hair or whatnot.  So yes, there are assholes here.  This contention that the assholes are elitist assholes though; I don't think that plays.  If people assume the W:A community is elitist because we believe we are playing the only significant iteration that team17 has ever made, then yes, we are guilty of that.  Elitist because we actually have a community?  Because I don't see another worms title with even so much as a dead community website to it's name.  It just never existed.  I would imagine this noname individual sniping at our community was someone who was an asshole themselves that was wholly rejected by those here for being an asshole. 

I think the biggest single determinant of the assholes is that we have been treated like assholes.  We have been lied to, over and over by team17, to get us to buy their products.  So to that, I would say most of this assholedom has been earned.  To pidgeonhole this community into a whole that is just a belligerent group of assholes would be negligent.  We are have had our assholes groomed by team17 for many years, and they haven't even been gentle, our assholes are irritated. 

Keep firing assholes

Offline h3oCharles

Re: "How Team17 plans to bring Worms into the world of eSports"
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2017, 04:44 PM »
Where did that conversation take place? I want to join it.

WG's FB Group

You know, I've been thinking about this.  I always felt people were assholes to jonno, acting like little children, making fun of his blue hair or whatnot.  So yes, there are assholes here.  This contention that the assholes are elitist assholes though; I don't think that plays.  If people assume the W:A community is elitist because we believe we are playing the only significant iteration that team17 has ever made, then yes, we are guilty of that.  Elitist because we actually have a community?  Because I don't see another worms title with even so much as a dead community website to it's name.  It just never existed.  I would imagine this noname individual sniping at our community was someone who was an asshole themselves that was wholly rejected by those here for being an asshole. 

I think the biggest single determinant of the assholes is that we have been treated like assholes.  We have been lied to, over and over by team17, to get us to buy their products.  So to that, I would say most of this assholedom has been earned.  To pidgeonhole this community into a whole that is just a belligerent group of assholes would be negligent.  We are have had our assholes groomed by team17 for many years, and they haven't even been gentle, our assholes are irritated. 

Keep firing assholes


Offline Sbaffo

Re: "How Team17 plans to bring Worms into the world of eSports"
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2017, 04:52 PM »


I think the biggest single determinant of the assholes is that we have been treated like assholes.  We have been lied to, over and over by team17, to get us to buy their products.  So to that, I would say most of this assholedom has been earned.  To pidgeonhole this community into a whole that is just a belligerent group of assholes would be negligent.  We are have had our assholes groomed by team17 for many years, and they haven't even been gentle, our assholes are irritated. 

Keep firing assholes

^This.

You know what's the funniest part? Johnno has been communicating here to answer our question, but then, when the game came out and everyone was disappointed, he disappeared, what's more is that all of our questions and request (you guys thought they were even listening to you) were like ignored. How you expect people to treat you when you treated us like a bunch of walking money? Asshole, WMD is a complete trash just like all the other Worms series, they knows this perfectly!

I'm not mad at you tho johnno, but i'd like you to understand that this game is thousand times more competitive than WMD crap
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 04:56 PM by Sbaffo »

Offline h3oCharles

Re: "How Team17 plans to bring Worms into the world of eSports"
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2017, 04:59 PM »
WMD is a complete trash just like all the other Worms series, they know this perfectly!

Maybe they just don't realize it. At the same time, maybe they don't want to bother Deadcode & CyberShadow at rushing WA into a bad direction.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 08:47 PM by TheMadCharles »

Offline skunk3

Re: "How Team17 plans to bring Worms into the world of eSports"
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2017, 12:31 AM »
I totally agree with you Wally.

I think the way people have been talking to / about Jonno is totally unjustified, but I honestly expecting nothing less when he decided to start posting here. Being a community manager for a video game franchise has to be great, yet frustrating, especially when dealing with hardcore fans of a game they made nearly 2 decades ago. My beef isn't with Jonno; it is with Team17 as a corporate entity and the way they handle themselves.

Even though WMD isn't perfect, it's still a decent game. There are many updates and patches planned for the next several months adding a bunch of new features and content. However, I feel that these additions to the game should have been implemented from the very start rather than being patched in several months after release. Late is better than never, though.

Another thing that really bugs me about WMD (and pretty much all of the newer Worms titles) is that the community is divided between PC and consoles. I know a lot of people who only play WMD on console, and I'll never get to play with them because of this. I sold off my consoles and haven't looked back. We now have cross-platform support for those playing via Mac and Linux, but that's an insignificant number of people compared to those who play on consoles.

All gripes aside, WMD isn't a bad game, and I certainly wouldn't call it "trash." Also, our comments / feedback have not been ignored at all. They have implemented MANY things the community has asked for, from balancing issues, to global chat, to a new Elo-based ranking system. The community managers DO in fact listen, but it's not like they have the power to make these changes themselves. All they can do is collate information and pass it on to the dev team.