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Author Topic: Mole discussion  (Read 3604 times)

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Offline TheKaren

Mole discussion
« on: July 25, 2018, 08:06 PM »
Magnus, I watched the best Mole Shopper player play a dozen games, i'm quite happy with my judgement on how much luck is in the scheme thanks, your ability to judge luck is irrelevant to me.

I also have 19 years of experience with this game, i'm quite confident in what I say. (And yes, it's just a joke)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 08:22 PM by TheKomodo »

Offline Magnus

Re: Mole discussion
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2018, 09:01 PM »
Magnus, I watched the best Mole Shopper player play a dozen games, i'm quite happy with my judgement on how much luck is in the scheme thanks, your ability to judge luck is irrelevant to me.

I also have 19 years of experience with this game, i'm quite confident in what I say. (And yes, it's just a joke)
Your 19 years of experience with the game is irrelevant if professional Mole Shopper gameplay isn't included in that experience. Skunk said the same with his years of experience, and I could understand why he fails to comprehend the scheme when we played, something I still intend to explain when I have more time. It doesn't matter if you have 30 years of experience with math; you'll never be able to teach physics unless you learn IT instead of everything else! I'm also confident in what I say in regards to this scheme.

Offline Sensei

Re: Mole discussion
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2018, 09:04 PM »
Prepare 40$ magnus. That's how we roll here.

Offline TheKaren

Re: Mole discussion
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2018, 12:26 AM »
Magnus let me explain something about common sense.

Assuming you've never experienced letting go of objects and falling.

As a human, we're very clever if we pay attention and focus:

Someone hands you an object, they tell you to hold it out at arms length and drop it and observe how long it takes to reach the ground.

They then hand you another object, it's heavier, they explain to you because it is heavier, it will fall faster because of gravity, you let go and indeed it falls faster, you remember this.

They then give you an object, lighter than the 1st object, they explain because it is lighter, it will fall slower, you let go, it falls slower, you remember this.

Then they give you the last object, they ask you to feel it, judge it's weight and explain what you think will happen.

Any person with the ability to remember physics, movement, routines, etc, can judge a Mole Shopper if they have a lot of experience with WA because it doesn't actually have anything new, it's simply a combination of already existing materials, to understand this simple concept, I highly recommend you watch this:



Also, Magnus, it IS just a joke lol, i've already said I think Mole is a skilled scheme and all that, but this is all just because of Zalo, you maybe just don't get it.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 12:36 AM by TheKomodo »

Offline Magnus

Re: Mole discussion
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2018, 06:35 AM »
Magnus let me explain something about common sense.

Assuming you've never experienced letting go of objects and falling.

As a human, we're very clever if we pay attention and focus:

Someone hands you an object, they tell you to hold it out at arms length and drop it and observe how long it takes to reach the ground.

They then hand you another object, it's heavier, they explain to you because it is heavier, it will fall faster because of gravity, you let go and indeed it falls faster, you remember this.

They then give you an object, lighter than the 1st object, they explain because it is lighter, it will fall slower, you let go, it falls slower, you remember this.

Then they give you the last object, they ask you to feel it, judge it's weight and explain what you think will happen.

Any person with the ability to remember physics, movement, routines, etc, can judge a Mole Shopper if they have a lot of experience with WA because it doesn't actually have anything new, it's simply a combination of already existing materials,
Actually, objects falling don't have to do with weight:


I sure get what you're trying to say, but again, I'm sorry to inform you, judging Mole Shopper just with that isn't enough comprehended it because it differs A LOT from Intermediate/Elite in terms of strategy, a concept some of you guys have a twisted idea about. And you're wrong: there sure are "new things" as there are things you don't see in other schemes; things you can't notice until you're actually playing it at a high level. An amateur isn't able to understand the depth of a chess game being played by a grandmaster just by watching it. And as I said, I played with skunk and read his analysis of how he saw the game first hand, so I can tell exactly where he fails to see the scheme from the right perspective, and it's the same case with you. I am willing to explain all of this, so just give me some more days so I can have the proper time to do it. For the time being, let's put this discussion on the wait.

Also, Magnus, it IS just a joke lol, i've already said I think Mole is a skilled scheme and all that, but this is all just because of Zalo, you maybe just don't get it.
Ye, but saying that and at the same time saying it's less strategic than Intermediate is something very worrying.

Offline Sensei

Re: Mole discussion
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2018, 07:46 AM »
An amateur isn't able to understand the depth of a chess game being played by a grandmaster just by watching it.



You don't see grandmaster turning his back on first opponent and running away.
Pls stop with glorifying this scheme. It's not even funny anymore. No one thinks that way except couple of you ppl.
All this fun is in a good nature and well deserved. It will be forgotten soon.

Offline Magnus

Re: Mole discussion
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2018, 09:06 AM »
An amateur isn't able to understand the depth of a chess game being played by a grandmaster just by watching it.
You don't see grandmaster turning his back on first opponent and running away.
Zalo wasn't afraid of Daina. You know very well he turned down the challenge for another reason. I'm not Zalo, so I'm not responsible for his acts, but he may do whatever he wants. I'm not here to judge his actions. Daina could practice as much as she wants and challenge me in 5 games that wouldn't make a difference.

Pls stop with glorifying this scheme. It's not even funny anymore. No one thinks that way except couple of you ppl.
Because there is a bunch of ignorants who only had a first glance on it and failed to notice its worth and potential, leaving the scheme unexplored.

Offline Darmin

Re: Mole discussion
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2018, 09:50 AM »
TheKomodo, it's proved that bodies with a different weight and identical height fall to the ground at the same time. Teach the physicist.

Magnus, here nobody loves the scheme mole shopper because of her popularity. And also players who are invincible in a certain scheme. In this case i mean Zalo.
It usual human envy. Don't prove anything. It's senseless. I was convinced in it by own experience.

Offline Sbaffo

Re: Mole discussion
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2018, 09:55 AM »
Magnus, here nobody loves the scheme mole shopper because of her popularity. And also players who are invincible in a certain scheme. In this case i mean Zalo.
It usual human envy. Don't prove anything. It's senseless. I was convinced in it by own experience.


« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 09:58 AM by Sbaffo »

Offline Magnus

Re: Mole discussion
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2018, 10:28 AM »
I agree, Darmin, although I don't believe in something such as "invincible in a scheme". It's all a matter of practice and knowledge. When you master a scheme, you may both win and lose against someone of similar level. In that final Intermediate championship between Mablak and Chuvash, Chuvash won 4-3, but it's not like it was impossible for Mablak to win.

Offline TheKaren

Re: Mole discussion
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2018, 02:23 PM »
Oh yeah, I forgot about that... Jesus that's a bad one, I even saw Vsauce explain that! :D

I mean, in my head I wasn't thinking about different weight, same mass, I was thinking like, a feather, a brick, a ball etc, so my point still stands, albeit i'll admit I forgot about that physics thing, whatever lol.

Well, you still get the principle behind what I was saying right?

People like myself, Sensei, Sbaffo, pretty much everyone here actually, we've played this game for so long and know how all the weapons work, with various power settings.

For people like us, knowing WA inside out, and learning Mole Shopper, is like learning how to paint, then being asked to do it with a different shape of brush...

Honestly I see Mole Shopper as more repetitive than anything, it's mostly the same weapons being used.

In fact the only good things I saw Zalo do, isn't because Zalo is smart, because his opponents were dumb and not paying attention.

He's even won a few games simply because of having a stronger weapon in his crates at the right moment, COUGH COUGH luck COUGH.

Things like, opening up to force the other player to come to him, which they do, then they get killed, it's completely dumb, Zalo thinks he's a genius for this...

Zalo is not invincible, he actually loses a lot of games, just seems to win Bo5 a lot, and that's against noobs... No wonder he got scared of daina.

Zalo did NOT run away because of the gif I posted, because worse things were already said before that gif and he still stuck around.

If you actually believe him Magnus, you must be a bigger fool than Zalo, think about it, I actually had nothing to do with the challenge that Zalo started, it was a game between Zalo & daina, they could easily host by themselves or let someone else stream, if Zalos problem was ONLY with me, then he would still play, but he used it as an excuse to avoid playing daina, anybody who defends him is a fool.

It's like me saying i'm the best in the world at saying hello to every single individual item in my house, just because nobody else wants to... Doesn't make me special or anything lol.

Offline Magnus

Re: Mole discussion
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2018, 06:37 PM »
People like myself, Sensei, Sbaffo, pretty much everyone here actually, we've played this game for so long and know how all the weapons work, with various power settings.
Again, this kind of knowledge is irrelevant to comprehend Mole. We’re talking about Mole strategies here; not weapon usage in various power settings.

For people like us, knowing WA inside out, and learning Mole Shopper, is like learning how to paint, then being asked to do it with a different shape of brush...
Sure, and you don’t even need that many years of experience. But now you’re saying “learning Mole Shopper”. We were talking about “understanding the Mole strategies in depth” just a moment ago...

Honestly I see Mole Shopper as more repetitive than anything, it's mostly the same weapons being used.
LOL! That’s my words exactly for Intermediate. Always being restricted to the very same weaponry is just what made me get sick and tired of that scheme. In Mole, the weapon combination you pick always varies, and you also have more weapon variety.

In fact the only good things I saw Zalo do, isn't because Zalo is smart, because his opponents were dumb and not paying attention.
Seems like you need to see games with someone of his level or at least close to it.
And it’s also funny how you say that. You say it as if whenever you were watching Zalo play, you could detect every single mistake his opponents did. If you are so aware of these attention mistakes in the game, I guess you would never be ambushed in a game against Zalo, right? Here you talk just like skunk, as if everything there was so clear and easy to do...

He's even won a few games simply because of having a stronger weapon in his crates at the right moment, COUGH COUGH luck COUGH.
This depends on the game really, and also on his opponent’s move choices. Skunk got raped with 3 clusters in our game, but that was due to his bad playing, hence removing the possibility that I got lucky. It’s like I said before: noobs can’t complain about luck until they become grandmasters to actually become able to conclude that they did the best possible move choices, and they can’t technically fail too. If even then they lose to some luck factor, then we can talk about it.

Things like, opening up to force the other player to come to him, which they do, then they get killed, it's completely dumb, Zalo thinks he's a genius for this...
Here again you’re talking like skunk did before, talking very superfically about some... well, in this case in particular, I couldn’t even call it a tactic from the way you described it, but there are proper ways to do that, which then turns into one. Anyhow, the player on top might not be safe as you think if done properly. And also notice you’re analysing JUST this “tactic” (let’s call it that, whatever) by itself without any scenario in consideration... you just can’t do that. It’s not every time you’ll want to open up, along with many other moves in Mole which can bring you benefits in the game, but if used in the wrong moment, they turn into disadvantage. You can’t just analyse that one tactic, but take the entire game into consideration, otherwise there is no sense analysing it.

Zalo is not invincible, he actually loses a lot of games, just seems to win Bo5 a lot, and that's against noobs... No wonder he got scared of daina.
I agree he’s not invincible, even in bo5 considering our past. But you say against noobs? Where did you take that from?
Daina is light-years behind us. Stop joking on that!

Zalo did NOT run away because of the gif I posted, because worse things were already said before that gif and he still stuck around.
Who are you to say? He clearly said it was because of it. I think he’s just saturated of people who misunderstand his intentions if you asked me.

If you actually believe him Magnus, you must be a bigger fool than Zalo, think about it, I actually had nothing to do with the challenge that Zalo started, it was a game between Zalo & daina, they could easily host by themselves or let someone else stream, if Zalos problem was ONLY with me, then he would still play, but he used it as an excuse to avoid playing daina, anybody who defends him is a fool.
I would also have taken the gif as a friendly joke, but he didn’t. I never participated in these forums before, but it didn’t take long to realize how toxic things around here are. He might have just become intoxicated since it seems it’s not enough to have documentedly proved he’s n1 in a scheme with so many victories that there will be people who will just come by to degrade his achievements, saying “ah, that’s nothing”... Imagine you become n1 in a scheme and then someone said that to you. Not so cool, eh?
And yes, I do believe him, because from what I know very well from him, he takes evidential stuff a lot more into consideration than words. I’m even the opposite of him on that, but you like it or not, you can’t deny his Mole standings.

It's like me saying i'm the best in the world at saying hello to every single individual item in my house, just because nobody else wants to... Doesn't make me special or anything lol.
I wonder how many players you’re disrespecting with these words.

PS: I do not mean to offend skunk in any way just because I mentioned him here. I only made reference to him to show that Komodo did the same analysis mistakes. I noticed he’s actually a very nice guy who in fact took his effort trying to get the scheme, and I’m proud of him. But don’t worry, skunk, I’ll clear your view on it some day when I have more time, as I know exactly where you failed to recognize the worth in the scheme. I see you have future in Mole.

Well, see you guys after a couple of days.

Offline TheKaren

Re: Mole discussion
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2018, 06:47 PM »
Ok Magnus, if that knowledge is irrelevant to comprehend Mole, try playing Mole without using ANY of that knowledge.

To be honest, most of what Mole shopper is, making the most out of the weapons you collect, having experience and knowledge how to use all weapons.

As well as planning what you can do in the available time, planning your moves ahead, assuming what your opponent will do, and have various backup plans/counter attack plans.

Knowing tricks and tips such as using girder to judge distance of mole, is helpful as well, but this is knowledge easy to obtain.

The most important thing in Mole shopper, is spotting/creating opportunities and having the knowledge/experience to pull them off, which is no different from any other strategic scheme.

That's basically it, but you have to wait and see what crates you can collect and what is in them, hence, luck, because 2 equal players the crates will more often than not dictate who wins, there is a limit to what the player can control, they cannot control crates.

You can act like Mole Shopper has some incredible tactics the universe has never saw before, but you're wrong.



Offline Frutiloops

Re: Mole discussion
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2018, 07:31 PM »
He clearly said it was because of it. I think he’s just saturated of people who misunderstand his intentions if you asked me.

Wut? lf ppl misunderstand his intentions, how will quitting a challenge help to that?
Life is a funner dressed up as a tus

Offline WTF-8

Re: Mole discussion
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2018, 08:03 PM »
Skunk got raped with 3 clusters in our game, but that was due to his bad playing, hence removing the possibility that I got lucky.
Because him being bad and the opponent being lucky is mutually exclusive?


It’s like I said before: noobs can’t complain about luck until they become grandmasters
"people can't complain that shit tastes bad until they eat a ton of it"
LOL!
The manual in the installation folder is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural