Parachute in Rope Based Schemes

[Kradie]

Young Blaster from #ag had best comment regarding this.
Parachute in rope schemes is like helmet when on motorcycle.

So, Kradie, when you feel reckless - do it alone on race track and don't involve others. Especially newcomers.
Who knows how many we lost cause you didn't give chute to those poor ppl.

I will involve as many as I please, and there's nothing you can do to stop me.

This is a 2D video game, not a motorcycle race in real life. That's like comparing oranges and apples, and simulation and real life. In Worms Armageddon, you don't get physically hurt, only your mental state if you can't Improve.

Also I would like to emphasize that you can get full and same speed without parachute. You just need to get used to it.

[TheKomodo]

Well, you can actually compare parachute in roping to wearing a helmet when driving a motorbike, it's safety with the main point being, if you crash/fall, you can still survive versus no protection = dead, and pretty much one of the main goals in life is to stay alive, and likewise for roping, stay alive. So yeah, it's a very useful and comparative analogy.

I understand where you are coming from Kradie, it truly is hardcore to play without parachute and a testament to high skills, but in general another reason why parachute is a godsend is that this game is infamous for having screen tearing/lag spikes etc, so having that backup safety net for something that is out of your control is very fair.

Try this instead, make a list of pros & cons for having parachute, i'm pretty sure the pros will outweigh the cons.

[Xrayez]

Actually, limited resources is one of the things that make games fun, but there has to be a balance. We know how when we start to use cheats in games, they become boring fast because of unlimited resources despite initial burst of excitement.

So removing something like parachute could be indeed beneficial to gameplay because it forces you to utilize your "limited mental resources" ( ) in order to succeed, but it's not exact science. People who got used to parachute are biased and there's no way to eliminate that to say for sure.

[h3oCharles]

*checks who is the topic starter*
*sees Kradie*

go play ZaR and leave us, peasants, alone plz
if you want to flex on us how good you are at roping then play no chute in the league, you do you

[Kradie]

Well, you can actually compare parachute in roping to wearing a helmet when driving a motorbike, it's safety with the main point being, if you crash/fall, you can still survive versus no protection = dead, and pretty much one of the main goals in life is to stay alive, and likewise for roping, stay alive. So yeah, it's a very useful and comparative analogy.

I understand where you are coming from Kradie, it truly is hardcore to play without parachute and a testament to high skills, but in general another reason why parachute is a godsend is that this game is infamous for having screen tearing/lag spikes etc, so having that backup safety net for something that is out of your control is very fair.

Try this instead, make a list of pros & cons for having parachute, i'm pretty sure the pros will outweigh the cons.

Video games is a form of escapism that allows us to shape whatever reality within the boundaries of the game. Any person with a sane mind knows that riding a motorbike without a helmet is foolish. If you fall off from the bike, it might as well be your last thing you will ever do. EXCEPT in a video game, where real life is at pause, and you can do whatever in the virtual world. If there was a racing game in which you could simply remove the helmet, would I do it? Sure! Would I jump out of an airplane high up in the skies? Hell yes! Why? It is fun! I've done this many times in GTA. Would I go outside start punching, kicking people, shoot up a strip club and kill everyone? Hell no. Do you see where I am getting at? Throw away your moral ethics, in video game it is all about having a good time! 
So having no parachute is good, it teaches you discipline, and it can be just as fun with or without parachute. When I go back to say roper, I feel ashamed over myself, and embarrassed by others, because of the freaking parachute keeps activating on every turn.

My bias is eliminated, I just happen to favor no parachute. 

[Korydex]

Great idea, Kradie, this would make the league even more unavailable for newcomers

[TheKomodo]

Any person with a sane mind knows that riding a motorbike without a helmet is foolish.

Any person with a sane mind knows that racing a worm without a parachute is foolish.

Throw away your moral ethics, in video game it is all about having a good time! 

If you truly believed in "throwing away moral ethics" then it wouldn't matter if someone used parachute or not, you wouldn't even be discussing it because you wouldn't care.

You would rope without parachute yet play cautious and carefully, in a similar display of danger than people who play with parachute but rope incredibly fast doing tricks and showing off.

So having no parachute is good, it teaches you discipline

Sure, having no parachute is good for you, but to the extremely superior majority of people who enjoy roping schemes having no parachute is extremely bad.

Having a parachute is a superior training tool, than having no parachute, there are many reasons why, one of the most obvious being it's faster to get back into action.

If I had to wait several turns everytime I fell without parachute back in the day, i'd seriously have told this game to f**k off.

Having no parachute is fun as a gimmick, such as in ZaR rope schemes, but to be taken seriously in official League schemes, especially in the prime of competitive roping, you're having a laugh mate, it's been discussed more than you will ever realize.

I feel ashamed over myself, and embarrassed by others, because of the freaking parachute keeps activating on every turn

That's because you were a noob, everyone was when they 1st started, but if there was no parachute, it would have taken you longer to get better.

[Kradie]

Any person with a sane mind knows that racing a worm without a parachute is foolish.

It's a video game, there's no physical injury applied, but perhaps in the mental mind if one can't endure the punishment.

You would rope without parachute yet play cautious and carefully, in a similar display of danger than people who play with parachute but rope incredibly fast doing tricks and showing off.

You can rope incredible fast just as you would with or without parachute. In WxW you have to be fast anyway.

Sure, having no parachute is good for you, but to the extremely superior majority of people who enjoy roping schemes having no parachute is extremely bad.

Having a parachute is a superior training tool, than having no parachute, there are many reasons why, one of the most obvious being it's faster to get back into action.

If I had to wait several turns everytime I fell without parachute back in the day, i'd seriously have told this game to f**k off.

You say that parachute is a superior training tool, it almost sound like it's a cheat, an unfair advantage vs no parachute. If you f@#! up, that's on YOU, not anyone else's.

That's because you were a noob, everyone was when they 1st started, but if there was no parachute, it would have taken you longer to get better.

That's not even documented, and I can say with certainty I had players Improved with no parachute. If you f@#! up, you tell yourself to avoid the mistake. It is like with children, they remember when they are talked to. If there are no consequences of their action, there will be mistakes again. It is like with no parachute, you remember your fail and avoid it.

[TheKomodo]

Ok, for starters, can you make up your mind about comparing a game to real life, because you seem to be saying it's not plausible one minute, then saying it's ok the next:

This is a 2D video game, not a motorcycle race in real life. That's like comparing oranges and apples, and simulation and real life. In Worms Armageddon, you don't get physically hurt, only your mental state if you can't Improve.

It is like with children, they remember when they are talked to. If there are no consequences of their action, there will be mistakes again

So it's ok to compare to real life, as long as it's Kradie who does it? (Also, look at the very next quote...)

It's a video game, there's no physical injury applied, but perhaps in the mental mind if one can't endure the punishment.

The physical injury is irrelevant, we are talking about a safety net that is more useful having it, than not having it.

Which is why the motorbike helmet comparison is extremely useful, and to add further to my explanation before.

Driving a motorcycle, you could be driving flawlessly, but then some maniac not paying attention can drive into you,  it's out of your control, so having a helmet, can save your life.

Racing a worm, your physical and mental abilities could be flawless, your timing spot on, but your game lags a bit because of hardware/software issues, it's out of your control, so using parachute, can prevent you from falling and losing your turn, or sometimes even worse, falling in water and dying.

Also, it is entirely possible, and more likely to make human error, nobody is perfect and asking anyone to be flawless is quite frankly, dumb.

So the biker could lose focus, and crash, the player could lose focus, and fall.

Again, real life physical damage is not the point here, the only relevant part of this comparison is the safety net.

For you to say the extremely obvious and condescending point about real life physical damage not being the same as losing your turn in a game, is quite frankly ridiculous, considering everybody is obviously f**king aware of this so it doesn't even need to be said.

I don't see anybody sitting there seriously pondering:

You can rope incredible fast just as you would with or without parachute. In WxW you have to be fast anyway.

Again, you are stating the obvious, and ignoring the point of having a parachute.

You say that parachute is a superior training tool, it almost sound like it's a cheat, an unfair advantage vs no parachute. If you f@#! up, that's on YOU, not anyone else's.

It almost sounds like it's a cheat? An unfair advantage vs no parachute?

It's not cheating, because it's legal within the rules, and available for everyone.

It's not an unfair advantage because again, it's available for everyone equally.

It's that simple, don't try and argue this because those are facts based on the English language and definitions of the word, don't even waste your time trying.

Also, i've explained why there can be things out of your control, if you choose to believe something else, that's your choice, have fun with that.

That's not even documented, and I can say with certainty I had players Improved with no parachute.

I never said players can't improve without parachute, I said it's faster to learn with parachute, and if it was faster & better to learn without parachute, then that's how everybody would be doing it, but they don't.

Edit - I'm not saying roping without parachute is bad, it's commendable, it's way more risky making it more impressive overall, but parachute is definitely a cornerstone of the roping world, and taking parachute out of roping schemes would more than likely be a deterrent to new players.

[Kradie]

My point is that; in video games, there are no permanent death, you can try as many times you like. But in real life, if you faint on a motorbike WITHOUT helmet, the chances of survival is LESS. Because AGAIN you can fail many times without parachute, and still be able to pick yourself up and win.

You talk about parachute as safety net, but in reality it is a crutch, a reminder that you can fail. It is OK to fail, no shame in it, but my point is that you will be more aware and disciplined with no parachute. Almost said ''No protection''. Then I guess someone would come along with a real life comparison of having sex.
I can also make comparison if others do, that's why the children analogy is good.  Take responsibility and learn from your mistakes. Same goes without parachute. IT is so basic and I don't get why I have to explain this.

I appreciate your acknowledgement and compliment about being skilled with no parachute. Because I think people that do rope without parachute are to be commended, and should be more recognized.

But as I said, I am not dismissing parachute, I am not asking to have it removed and deleted from history. I am asking the community what they are comfortable with, with or without parachute. I made my case, I have given my opinions. If you don't agree, fine, but that doesn't make us enemies. 

[TheKomodo]

My point is that; in video games, there are no permanent death, you can try as many times you like.

Well, that's not true, because if you are playing a competitive match, you can't try as many times as you like, and also there are limits on how many games you can play as well.

And, I know this is far-fetched, but there is no evidence one way or another to say what happens after we die, so saying permanent death could very well be wrong as far as we know, but, because you are using "permanent death" as an excuse to argue against using parachute, i'll use the unproven theoretical science that death is not the final curtain.

I mean, since we're using irrelevant arguements here...

You talk about parachute as safety net, but in reality it is a crutch, a reminder that you can fail. It is OK to fail, no shame in it, but my point is that you will be more aware and disciplined with no parachute. Almost said ''No protection''.

So people climbing mountains should do it without ropes, sports players should play without padding, boxers should fight barefisted, nobody should take any precautions so they can show how big their balls are? There is no shame in failing...

And yes, i'm well aware 1 risks "real death/damage" and the other "digital death/damage", but since you are ignoring my point, i'll ignore yours too.

If using parachute is a crutch, then so is editing schemes to our own tastes, so is buying better equipment to play the game than what was available back in 1999, using keychangers, finger roll, 2 hands, bigger screens, different resolutions than the original release, being able to save replays instead of being able to trust fellow humans, having max power ropes with infinite shots, the list could go on and on and on...

[Kradie]

I think you are over exaggerating a bit too much. Editing and playing schemes is normal thing to do, and part of the game. Sure you can argue that ''So is having parachute'' and to that I would say yes, but to that particular scheme that requires it. Should a man with a broken foot use a crutch? Yeah or a wheelchair. Point is, you are capable of roping without parachute.  But people won't, because they're biased and stubborn.

Buying a new keyboard, mouse, whatever, can indeed help you get better. It can provide better quality of life, pleasure, a short dopamine drive, but it's not a crutch or cheat because it is available. Sure you could say ''Well parachute is available'' BUT only to the schemes that requires it. IT seems like many people are dependent on this safety net because they don't trust themselves enough.  There is totally lack of responsibility, and therefore eliminating consequences of what could happened.

When I said permanent death, I was referring to a stupid real life scenario not in a video game.

But come on man, only a fool would climb a mountain in real life without a rope.  Let alone standing on a bike in full motion.

[TheKomodo]

I think you are over exaggerating a bit too much.

Well why not? You are. You are making mountains out of molehills.

Editing and playing schemes is normal thing to do, and part of the game. Sure you can argue that ''So is having parachute'' and to that I would say yes

Exactly.

Buying a new keyboard, mouse, whatever, can indeed help you get better. It can provide better quality of life, pleasure, a short dopamine drive, but it's not a crutch or cheat because it is available. Sure you could say ''Well parachute is available'

Exactly, and I did.

BUT only to the schemes that requires it.

Then we could say, do we really need to even bother playing Worms Armageddon in the 1st place?

Point is, you are capable of roping without parachute.  But people won't, because they're biased and stubborn.

You could say this about almost anything, you are capable of doing "x" without "x" and just replace x with pretty much anything...

We could play Elite without superweapons.

We could play Shopper without Rope and use Jetpack instead.

We could make BnG, just G and call it OG.

They are not biased and stubborn, that opinion itself is biased and stubborn actually, for example, humans don't have to eat food to enjoy the taste, but we do, are they biased and stubborn as well?

IT seems like many people are dependent on this safety net because they don't trust themselves enough.  There is totally lack of responsibility, and therefore eliminating consequences of what could happened.

I trust myself more than I trust technology.

However you've completely ignored valid points i've made about parachute being a safety net for more than just human error reasons over and over again, so I won't bother arguing this point anymore because you are being unreasonable.

[Kradie]

My mistake was to indulge myself a conversation with you that is long overdue. 

I have presented my case clearly with added inquires to support it.
I have countered replies and sentences that seemed reasonable.

I am not exaggerating though. You keep adding layers over layers until things aren't clear anymore.

I have no bias whether there is parachute or not.
I am not stubborn, we see things differently.

Also, lag is a common problems for all gamers alike. Competitive or not, you don't seem me complaining about it.

[TheKomodo]

But Kradie, you keep changing things...

1st it's ridiculous to compare real life, and a game, then it's ok to compare real life and a game because you were doing it.

You called other people stubborn for seeing things differently and not wanting to change their opinion, so in what world does that make you not stubborn for doing the exact same thing?

You are, by definition, exaggerating, here is a list of things you've said:

"It totally feels like trainer mode is enabled holding your hand''

"If you can't rope with full speed with no parachute, then you surely lack confidence in your own ability"

"It is kind of sad, that people are so reliant on this trainer mode it is embarrassing"

"Beginners will get used to this, I had many beginners in my games of zar and big zar rr. Many of them have failed countless of time but yet they come back and improved."

^^ I have to point out, they improve not because there is parachute or no parachute, they improve because they keep trying, and that's how "practise" generally works, they become more tuned with hand-eye coordination and the controls of the rope. It's not rocket science, and it's definitely not because of ZaR 

"You say that parachute is a superior training tool, it almost sound like it's a cheat, an unfair advantage vs no parachute. If you f@#! up, that's on YOU, not anyone else's. "

"You talk about parachute as safety net, but in reality it is a crutch," <--- Funny enough, you are using a REAL LIFE comparison again, after your speech about apples & oranges...

"IT seems like many people are dependent on this safety net because they don't trust themselves enough."

But then this, really makes me laugh:

"I have no bias whether there is parachute or not. "

^^ When literally your 1st post said:

''Why do we need parachute in popular rope schemes? It totally feels like trainer mode is enabled holding your hand''

Yeah, no bias indeed...