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One-Boards => Schemes => Topic started by: HHC on May 24, 2012, 02:16 PM

Title: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: HHC on May 24, 2012, 02:16 PM
Was looking at the HostingBuddy stats again: http://stats.worms2d.info/hbschemes.html

And yeah.. everyone already knew newbs were really only into shopper, but the numbers are quite worrisome.

Classic league schemes:
Shopper 43.7%
WxW 7.6%
TTRR 7.0%
Hysteria 4.3%
-----
BnG 0.51%
Team17 0.31%
Roper 0.27%
Elite 0.08%

More than half the games hosted on WN are shoppers or variations thereof (56,6% to be precise). But what's worrying is that all the classic worms schemes (BnG, Roper, Elite, Team17) are COMBINED hosted only 1.17% of the time. That's little more than 1 out of every 100 games. In case of Elite it's even only 1 out of 1250 games (:-X)

Basically, these schemes are only played in TUS.
No newbie plays them anymore, not ever.

The odd thing is that the most unpopular of these, Elite, has long been considered the most popular in TUS.  :-X

Actually, let's check the most popular schemes in TUS classic:
Hyst.  344 (19.44%) - 4.3%
TTRR   311 (17.57%) - 7.0%
WxW    275 (15.54%) - 7.6%
Roper  246 (13.90%) - 0.3%
Elite  212 (11.97%) - 0.1%
T17    164  (9.27%) - 0.3%
BnG    109  (6.16%) - 0.5%
Shop   109  (6.16%) -43.7%

These are the stats for this season (not the overall ones!). 1st number = games played, between brackets is the % of total and the percentage behind that is the HB-hosting percentages.

Noticable is that shopper, despite being, by overwhelming numbers, the most popular scheme on wormnet is the one least played here at TUS. On the other hand, the top three schemes in classic also perform well on wormnet (Hyst, wxw and TTRR), whereas the classic schemes (Roper, Elite, BnG, Team17) aren't played as much, but still one has to admit, far far more than in the HB-stats.

In TUS itself, veteran players are more inclined towards the classic set of schemes (duh?), while the new players (I checked this) tend to pick almost exclusively Shopper, WxW and sometimes Hyst or TTRR. (which is understandable, seeing as how the classic schemes are virtually never played outside TUS).

Other popular schemes that are popular HB-wise:
Normal 10.6%
Tower Race 8.4%
Mole Shop 3.6%
Fly Shop 2.8%
Supersheeper 2.1%
Pod Shopper 1.6%
Bow & Arrow 1.3%



I'm not sure why I got the idea to make this thread. I guess I suddenly became aware of these 'oddities'.

I like to hear what people's opinion is on these numbers.

It sure raises a lot of interesting points:
1) is there a future for the classic schemes?
2) why do schemes like wxw and shopper tend to fail when chosen as TRL schemes? Why did normal never get the place it deserves based on popularity?
3) is TUS noob-unfriendly? or do noobs simply abandon their fav schemes after getting in touch with more 'skillful'-ones?
4) there are a lot of noobs on wormnet who do not play for TUS, could something be done to get them here? Like a shopper-only league? Or would that fail?
5) does the same problem exist in other games? As in, modes played for fun being entirely different from those played for leagues?
6) I disagreed with Ropa when he said new players aren't nearly as skilled as the old generation. But yeah, it could be very true for the classic schemes.. which aren't played nearly as much anymore and thus naturally skill level drops and the amount of top players decreases by the day.
Can we do something to get more players involved or are these schemes just doomed to die out?
7) Viewing the cups that are being held right now.. it's pretty much scheme-madness there. Pretty much all are experimental schemes or free league ones. It's pretty sad that Ray has to host elite tourneys to still get people to play it and keep the spirit 'alive'. TEL is dead and Elite it seems... very close to..  :-[


So yeah people, opinions!










Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: HHC on May 24, 2012, 02:32 PM
Btw, I'm not suggesting anything.. I made a case in the past to remove some schemes from the Classic league cause unpopular and what not. But yeah, looking at the numbers, that would be the end of Elite, BnG, Team17 ánd even Roper.

We need to face the fact that it's only us people at TUS who keep these schemes alive. And that even within TUS, these schemes are on the retreat as more and more veterans stop playing and more and more people turn their backs on them.

So yeah, i'm inclined to ring the
(http://www.ultragadgets.nl/contents/media/fire-bell-alarm-clock_.jpg)

for these schemes.
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: Ray on May 24, 2012, 02:37 PM
I almost cried looking at this... Very big thumbs up to you HHC for putting this thread together and researching.

Each coin has two sides... With the arrival of HostingBuddy, many people got the chance to host games very easily. That's pretty much all for the bright side of that. Downside is that people never learn how to host, they miss out virtually everything that requires a little skill and knowledge, like downloading schemes, maps, you name it.

And people are lazy. Indeed, they are. If something is easy, like a Shopper game, just rope rope bumm bumm haha I'll go to bed. They are going to do that.

Now, the solution might be, first of all, a really easy website. This website, for it's older, more experienced users is okay, but for someone new, it's just horrible, they will always get lost and never learn. They need something that pushes them to the right direction and if they see that, even though it's more difficult, there is an upside, they are going to switch.

People have to see the upside, they don't see it at the moment, hence the drop in the schemes' popularity.

Back then, you needed to be good at BnG to play it, you had to actually do great shots, I don't know why I never thought of just throwing a grenade like bouncing everywhere, but I just never did. It's probably because of that filthy, no-good, disgusting abomination called Hysteria. Darkmaul taught me how to play BnG, I thank him to this day.

So many thoughts I have about this... I can't organize them. But I agree that WormNET today is pretty lame. :(
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: M4Dbrat on May 24, 2012, 02:43 PM
I actually changed my look at schemes after playing some TUS matches. Yeah, I liked Shopper variations greatly too, but now I got used to BnG, Roper and TTRR. Newbies prefer Shoppa because of dynamic rope-based gameplay, also they think that they actually play something megapowerful, if it has that set of rules and (no1 heard that BnG actually has even more rules though) and its average level of difficulty.
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: Ray on May 24, 2012, 02:55 PM
Yea, also a valid point, people who don't play online think of worms like the single player quick game thing it is. They don't know what's behind the doors...

As soon as they see a Shopper, it's so weird and funny and unbelieveable for them at the same time that they don't take that next step.
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: Hussar on May 24, 2012, 02:55 PM
TUS need some Tutorial for newcomers, with some presentations movies......... for example movies showing rules in each sheme and how they looks like, what maps are needs etc

and some basic leagues for noobs.......

TUS site is rly unreadable!!!!!!!!

am here past some about 3 years and i dont know yet all features.
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: Peja on May 24, 2012, 03:48 PM
 

i like this idea from berria, cause every wormer who tries searching for wa stuff will discover tus sooner or later ( ;) at DENnis)

well the stats are no surprise, people who already discovered a bigger variety of schemes get tired of using hostingbuddy because its clumsy to host if you want to play on specific maps.

i think its good shopper is the must used scheme among newcomers. this means they have found out there is roping. maybe all this players are happy to play their shoppers and already found out there is more. not everyone is interested in a big  learning curve.
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: Impossible on May 24, 2012, 03:58 PM
if every1 will start making cool vids, this game will get popular again with alot of newcomers, and every scheme will have own fans. Thats such as minecraft who have OVER 9000 new vids everyday in u2b, and get popular by them :p
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: nappy on May 24, 2012, 06:05 PM
People who are enlighted enough to know about other schemes than shopper are usually able to configure hosting on their own (or via wormnat2, at least), so they don't use HostingBuddy. You also would never want to host something like elite with HB since you have a very limited map control.

So it's not clear stats.
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: HHC on May 24, 2012, 06:14 PM
That may be true nappy, but go on wormnet and see for yourself. Even the games without HB are shopper in at least half of the cases. It's been a while since I seen a guy host Elite that wasn't a TUS game. Same for Team17, Roper and BnG (although to a smaller extent).
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: nappy on May 24, 2012, 06:44 PM
Yeah I know. When v.31 was in development, I had a suggestion to put some useful links on the wormnet lobby screen, so people will eventually stumble upon them and learn something about schemes, hosting, etiquette and so on. Sadly, it wasn't done.
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: DENnis on May 24, 2012, 07:01 PM
I like to hear what people's opinion is on these numbers.

It sure raises a lot of interesting points:
1) is there a future for the classic schemes?
2) why do schemes like wxw and shopper tend to fail when chosen as TRL schemes? Why did normal never get the place it deserves based on popularity?
3) is TUS noob-unfriendly? or do noobs simply abandon their fav schemes after getting in touch with more 'skillful'-ones?
4) there are a lot of noobs on wormnet who do not play for TUS, could something be done to get them here? Like a shopper-only league? Or would that fail?
5) does the same problem exist in other games? As in, modes played for fun being entirely different from those played for leagues?
6) I disagreed with Ropa when he said new players aren't nearly as skilled as the old generation. But yeah, it could be very true for the classic schemes.. which aren't played nearly as much anymore and thus naturally skill level drops and the amount of top players decreases by the day.
Can we do something to get more players involved or are these schemes just doomed to die out?
7) Viewing the cups that are being held right now.. it's pretty much scheme-madness there. Pretty much all are experimental schemes or free league ones. It's pretty sad that Ray has to host elite tourneys to still get people to play it and keep the spirit 'alive'. TEL is dead and Elite it seems... very close to..  :-[

So yeah people, opinions!
 

1)   Yes, because of TUS I started to play a lot of non rope games, too. Automatically I improve in more schemes. If you never play serious you’ll get bored, because you won’t improve enough and you can’t test if your brain works good enough to win vs. pros if you really concentrate. Games with many tactic works good for serious games (and yes, not so good for funners, because u can’t relax as much as in easy and funny schemes). To play more than only 2 or 3 / ur favourite schemes keeps WA alive.
2)   Statistics always lie :P But maybe because they are a bit overplayed and include too much luck to play them in TRL, where is only one scheme. Shoppergames have to be played failfree to have a chance to win because of skill. That1 who did 1 fail more loses the most times. But if both played failfree, that1 who had 1 turn more (so a whole attack more) wins almost every failfree game (Yes, I know there are very less games without fails which changed the game). But like I always said: Luck alone never decides a game, so the main problem is that the famous schemes r just overplayed + they r much more fun in funners.
3)   TUS isn’t noobfriendly enough. When u r new here u r overstrained .. too many informations at 1 time and u don’t know where to look to get the right information how the system works. There should be a little overview for noobs, like first steps how the system works: 1) Ask „tus any1?“ in #AG, 2) There will be 2 games, first game is ur pick, second game the opponents pick. 3) Only the winner reports all replays to his victory of pick 1 or/and pick 2. Upload here (url). Then a Text: For more detailed information click here. (Nobody wanna read and search for hours to get that 3 main points.)
4)   Not only noobs do not play TUS. There r also many highly-skilled people who just hate LAMERS who let TUS look so bad. TUS looks like that to them: 1) TUS kills the fun because the most people only play for the victory there and don’t care to have a good game with risky tries and freestyling. 2) Too much arguing and angry noobs/angry kids/haters who love to make a stressful and bad atmosphere. If the haters/dumb people can’t enrage noobs they r not satisfied and try other things like faking and cheating. --- A shopperleague would be nice, especially with more skilled shopper variations like surf-, fly-, AttackFromAir- and the skill Trippleshopper, but like I alrdy said it won’t help much, because it is so overplayed (and the variations too unknown ^^) + the main probleme there are people like Chelsea who noobbash the newbies 15-0. Things like that should be forbidden. Someone who just loses like 20 games in a row and more would give up sooner or later.
5)   The only other game I play is Motocross Madness 2 and there are only games for fun and to relax right now. A long time ago it was better, because there was a recorder which could record ur best lap and post it on a community site. The fungames (Stunttagging) didnt work for that. But for Stunttagging where tourneys years ago. At that recording and tourney days there were so much more activity. U just need serious games sometimes, new things and special events, too, to keep a game alive.
6)   Yeah, use the KTL rule: Kill the LAMERS ^^. Like I said if u always lose and there r no close and interesting games and people who think it is the most important thing to win as fast as possible instead of trying to have a good game where both can have fun, many people think theres no sense to play games wheres no or too less fun.
7)   And I think many people understand that the fun is the most important thing. More fun = more activity. For the most people it is the easiest way to have fast fun when they just play a funny shopper to relax. What do you prefer? Fast fun and relax or highly complicated things where u have to think a lot and where u have to have a good concentration to solve difficult problems? I like to think and I like to use my brain so I started to play many more schemes than just my favourites ones. To keep improving is always an important process in ur live. But: If you don’t have enough fun and too less positiv situations in ur memory u don’t want to do it again. You can’t learn when there r lamers who kill the fun. To improve the activity: Be friendly, help noobs instead of kicking and insulting them and show why the scheme „XYZ“ is FUN, too. To let ur opponent absolutely no chance kills the fun, makes a game boring and after some of that lame games the loser won’t play this scheme until he finds a friendly and helpful wise guy, who know that a noob could be the pro of „tomorrow“ if u let him have FUN while learning and improving!

Please read our FD Philosophy <3 - https://www.tus-wa.com/groups/FD/
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: chakkman on May 24, 2012, 07:01 PM
That may be true nappy, but go on wormnet and see for yourself. Even the games without HB are shopper in at least half of the cases. It's been a while since I seen a guy host Elite that wasn't a TUS game. Same for Team17, Roper and BnG (although to a smaller extent).
So? If people enjoy playing shoppa then they should be playing shoppa. It's not that we have to evangelize people to go the league way. I remember having quite enjoyed playing shoppa for fun back in the days. If you take a look at the most played schemes, you will find a lot of fun schemes, so let people have fun. No scheme fascism needed. :P
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: Ray on May 24, 2012, 08:18 PM
That may be true nappy, but go on wormnet and see for yourself. Even the games without HB are shopper in at least half of the cases. It's been a while since I seen a guy host Elite that wasn't a TUS game. Same for Team17, Roper and BnG (although to a smaller extent).
So? If people enjoy playing shoppa then they should be playing shoppa. It's not that we have to evangelize people to go the league way. I remember having quite enjoyed playing shoppa for fun back in the days. If you take a look at the most played schemes, you will find a lot of fun schemes, so let people have fun. No scheme fascism needed. :P
But then we will slowly die man, we do need new people in this community and we are not about to force everyone to go our way, it's about informing people about the existence and the fun of "our side".
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: Aerox on May 24, 2012, 08:23 PM
I'd say people who are not newbies are more likely to know how to find what port to open and do it than casuals.

That's a factor.
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: franz on May 24, 2012, 09:16 PM
I bet MonkeyIsland would appreciate volunteers more than just giving ideas.  I'm guessing he already has his own ideas for TUS2 that he continuously works on, so I'd encourage you guys to be proactive and get involved with your own ideas here :)
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: HHC on May 24, 2012, 09:21 PM
Hmm, made a graph  :)

(http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/7783/schemesgraph.gif) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/schemesgraph.gif/)

N.B.: Shopper wasn't in Classic league from the start.
edit: N.B.2: since my excel is dutch.. the times are dutch. Jan=January; Mei=May; Sep=September..


It puts things in a different perspective I guess. There's still hope for elite  :D

Btw, to save myself some valuable time I only used the data from the following seasons: 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, 22, 24, 25, 26 (current).

Hard to draw any real conclusions from this graph  ???
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: chakkman on May 24, 2012, 09:40 PM
Now try to determine how many ppl/clans pick for points rather than for scheme favours.
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: Desetroyah on May 24, 2012, 10:25 PM
This:
Now try to determine how many ppl/clans pick for points rather than for scheme favours.

and,

I believe, for the same reason someone who is an experienced reader would go for the best-regarded//famous for their quality or intellect/good/interesting/researched writers, whereas a new reader would go by chance to the most "pop" ones - thats right Stephen King fans xd.

Bottomline, if someone wants to get involved in other schemes and play competitively, they will.

PS: I love Stephen King :P

Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: TheKaren on May 25, 2012, 04:59 AM
Well well well...

Look what's the favourite scheme then, B N f@#!ing G ! Get it up ye ! Well, more than roper t17 elite.

K, i've read the rest now, while I find it dissapointing, it's part of life, nothing lives forever, you got to enjoy it while it lasts and make the most of it, and if possible, try and help make it last longer.
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: Mablak on May 25, 2012, 05:19 AM
Intermediate is the 2nd most hosted HB scheme. Time to bring it back ;O
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: Impossible on May 25, 2012, 06:00 AM
oh the graph is on german, but I suggest to translate it so anybody can undestand it now
(http://wa-mems.do.am/_nw/0/57991481.png)
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: TheKaren on May 25, 2012, 06:34 AM
Lol impo n1 xD
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: Throsti on May 25, 2012, 06:47 AM
OWNED. Impoo lol
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: Aerox on May 25, 2012, 11:09 AM
I'm going to make this post in hopes the data here isn't used to draw conclusions or make decisions.


Quote
1) is there a future for the classic schemes?
Yes, TUS.

Quote
2) why do schemes like wxw and shopper tend to fail when chosen as TRL schemes? Why did normal never get the place it deserves based on popularity?

Because when you learn you can host (most likely after becoming somewhat good at the game), you stop using HB, and start playing other schemes. The connections you make are totally wrong, this has nothing to do with popularity and I wouldn't look at it to judge the future, either. Most people that like Shopper don't like Shopper because they compare all schemes and decide they do. They do so because it's the first thing they learn, the easiest thing they can host (they constantly see people hosting with HB) and the only thing they can play.
How many allarounders you think have shopper as their favorite scheme? Not many, I'd say.


Quote
3) is TUS noob-unfriendly? or do noobs simply abandon their fav schemes after getting in touch with more 'skillful'-ones?

It's hard to navigate and the forums are hard to understand and full of /r. They do the second thing, I'd say but mainly because Shopper was never their "fav" scheme, but their first scheme, and because it's so popular and so constantly hosted it retro-aliments and the patron goes on and on.

Quote
4) there are a lot of noobs on wormnet who do not play for TUS, could something be done to get them here? Like a shopper-only league? Or would that fail?

Things can be done, I don't see the benefit. You can't convince players into playing competitive in a league in a time/effort effective way, I think that motivation comes from one self.

Quote
5) does the same problem exist in other games? As in, modes played for fun being entirely different from those played for leagues?

There is a market called professional gaming. Devs take competition into account, and if they don't, their game will not be competitive. So it doesn't happen that often with new games. But it happened all the time in old games, like WA. Set of rules to make a fair and fun competition based on the lack of in game support for such things.


Quote
6) I disagreed with Ropa when he said new players aren't nearly as skilled as the old generation. But yeah, it could be very true for the classic schemes.. which aren't played nearly as much anymore and thus naturally skill level drops and the amount of top players decreases by the day.
Can we do something to get more players involved or are these schemes just doomed to die out?

You can't do anything. Gamers have short spasms and will most likely direct their attention to something with more eye candy after a few worms games.
I like your use of semantics to kind of admit I was right but kind of not. You need to realize it'd be weird if old players were better than new in non classic schemes, seeing as most of them didn't even exist.

Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: TheKaren on May 25, 2012, 10:44 PM
Plus alot of posts on TuS are things newcomers don't know anything about, and if they see someone arguin, they don't know enough to get involved so probably don't want to get involved because what would be the point?
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: Ray on May 26, 2012, 07:27 AM
Not to mention the lack of English knowledge.
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: DarkOne on May 26, 2012, 01:17 PM
Just his entire post

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/200/420/BRTky.jpg?1321408042)
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: solido on May 30, 2012, 08:05 AM
i dont like tus singles because playng 1v1 is boring and i think noobs feel this way too . clans are hard to be apart of because it requires commitment and organisation and there is not very many players especially during night in the west, if I go in wormnet an all russians and zillians I leave cause I cant talk to them and thats not fun to game with ppl cant communicate with. too few players =not enough ppl for active-enough clans= only real solution is give the game away for free  and new league for noobs thats way way more user friendly than tus. wont work unless reporting can be done in game. this should be possible to send commands like we do to hosting buddy.

ps. embrace the new popular schemes, it's the only way. how bout instead of trl, you have nu-league with hysteria, tower race, shopper, and other popular hb schemes.

pps. the best schemes i've played are with noobs that have edited there own schemes and they are simple fun to play dont involve very much thinking and each player has = oppurtunity to win, and has no rules. i like this one game i play with my casual noob friend who i've been meeting online. and the whole game lasts like 5-6 minutes, but we play like 6 or 7 a night and we have fun, chatting, he wins some and I win some and it's fun. of course the more skilled player will win more often but i like short length games. just dont like kaos... 2x damage ruins it.
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: Aerox on May 30, 2012, 10:42 AM
i dont like tus singles because playng 1v1 is boring and i think noobs feel this way too . clans are hard to be apart of because it requires commitment and organisation and there is not very many players especially during night in the west, if I go in wormnet an all russians and zillians I leave cause I cant talk to them and thats not fun to game with ppl cant communicate with. too few players =not enough ppl for active-enough clans= only real solution is give the game away for free  and new league for noobs thats way way more user friendly than tus. wont work unless reporting can be done in game. this should be possible to send commands like we do to hosting buddy.

ps. embrace the new popular schemes, it's the only way. how bout instead of trl, you have nu-league with hysteria, tower race, shopper, and other popular hb schemes.

pps. the best schemes i've played are with noobs that have edited there own schemes and they are simple fun to play dont involve very much thinking and each player has = oppurtunity to win, and has no rules. i like this one game i play with my casual noob friend who i've been meeting online. and the whole game lasts like 5-6 minutes, but we play like 6 or 7 a night and we have fun, chatting, he wins some and I win some and it's fun. of course the more skilled player will win more often but i like short length games. just dont like kaos... 2x damage ruins it.


Yeah, classic schemes, too hard. Clans? Too much effort. Viva la casual.

Here's the hard truth though, casuals don't play leagues. If you made a league consisting of the most stupid schemes possible (something like the stuff you and your pals play for 7 times a night) it wouldn't have any popularity.

You'll eventually get over the big banana bombs and such, and you'll either leave worms for good or stay and move on to more complex schemes, it's factual data.
Title: Re: Schemes - TUS vs Newbs
Post by: solido on May 31, 2012, 05:36 AM
i dont like tus singles because playng 1v1 is boring and i think noobs feel this way too . clans are hard to be apart of because it requires commitment and organisation and there is not very many players especially during night in the west, if I go in wormnet an all russians and zillians I leave cause I cant talk to them and thats not fun to game with ppl cant communicate with. too few players =not enough ppl for active-enough clans= only real solution is give the game away for free  and new league for noobs thats way way more user friendly than tus. wont work unless reporting can be done in game. this should be possible to send commands like we do to hosting buddy.

ps. embrace the new popular schemes, it's the only way. how bout instead of trl, you have nu-league with hysteria, tower race, shopper, and other popular hb schemes.

pps. the best schemes i've played are with noobs that have edited there own schemes and they are simple fun to play dont involve very much thinking and each player has = oppurtunity to win, and has no rules. i like this one game i play with my casual noob friend who i've been meeting online. and the whole game lasts like 5-6 minutes, but we play like 6 or 7 a night and we have fun, chatting, he wins some and I win some and it's fun. of course the more skilled player will win more often but i like short length games. just dont like kaos... 2x damage ruins it.


Yeah, classic schemes, too hard. Clans? Too much effort. Viva la casual.

Here's the hard truth though, casuals don't play leagues. If you made a league consisting of the most stupid schemes possible (something like the stuff you and your pals play for 7 times a night) it wouldn't have any popularity.

You'll eventually get over the big banana bombs and such, and you'll either leave worms for good or stay and move on to more complex schemes, it's factual data.

ya, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. its a thinker.