Team17 Map Preference

[Kradie]

In recent times I have taken notice that some (without knowing the numbers) people play Team17 in open maps, rather to play Team17 in twin tunnel cave maps. For me the open map is blasphemy because I have always played Team17 in twin tunnel cave maps, even back in 2004. Some could argue that open maps are better for many reasons, and these reasons could make the scheme more Interesting. But if it that is the case, wouldn't that change the scheme integrity? Couldn't it be possible to change the name of the scheme to help differentiate the map preference? 

Though if you would argue that open Team17 maps were a thing 20 years ago, then it is still a problem IMO.

Thoughts?

[SIBASA]

I learned about the T17 island relatively recently and for me it was an unexpected and pleasant discovery, I did not even think before that it was possible, but it is not worth changing the name because of this, because if you follow this logic, can change the name of all the schemes, which are used on the island and the cave ... For example, the island normal and the normal cave are also different and have their own specifics and imply different tactics, but for some reason no one will be outraged.

Currently, island T17 is not very popular and is played only with the consent of both players, so I think you should not worry, because for now, the priority will be the twin tunnel, but personally I would like to see T17 played in the BO3 format in the future. with a combination of island and cave maps.

[Korydex]

Why there is no option for both types?

[Kradie]

I am not sure if Team17 should follow the same formula as Intermediate, but that's coming from someone who was born into the fact that Team17 is strictly played in twin tunnel cave maps.

Best of 3 are very time consuming and Team17 is very time consuming enough. There is no need for potential 1 hour of play...

Why there is no option for both types?

Because I am curious what you prefer the most.

[Sycotropic]

I used to always play on double cavern, and had the initial gut reaction you're having when island T17 was first introduced to me. But having played hundreds of island T17s over the last year or so I have to say I've definitely come around. I think it actually adds to the strategy because you have to consider so many more potential attack vectors and the maps generated usually result in more interesting jumps and chutes. As with any scheme that relies on random maps, the complexity of the match and strategy required is generally a result of the complexity and uniqueness of the map. That's why picking a good generated map and doodad placement is sort of an art form.

I don't really think it hurts the "integrity" of the scheme.. I actually think it bolsters it, showing that the same scheme can be played well on just about any map type. Deadcode and I have also played quite a few matches on other types of caverns and islands and it's almost always enjoyable.

If you haven't played much island T17, I would suggest trying it more before forming a strong opinion.

[Korydex]

Best of 3 are very time consuming and Team17 is very time consuming enough. There is no need for potential 1 hour of play...

Talking about that, cave T17 takes more time because it ends in late SD most of the time and sometimes draws occur because of lack of SD weapons.

[TheKomodo]

You don't always have to do something to make sense of it, when you already know the physics of the game engine it's not difficult to judge something new that you haven't played before.

I'm going to talk about this purely as a spectator, and it's entirely my opinion. As even though I really enjoy watching the classic Team17 map system, i've never cared for playing any form of Team17. The only time i've enjoyed playing Team17 is when Mablak was my partner because, well, it's Mablak and it's the teamwork that makes it fun with him.

To cut to the chase, i've recently grown to utterly despise Island Team17 as a spectator, especially after watching some clanners.

This analogy makes sense to me, it might not make sense to others:

Watching Team17 in dual layer cavern is similar to listening to a really well composed song.

It has a mostly empty beginning(collecting crates), as the song progresses on there are little bits of interesting action going on here and there(Some attacks/attempts to kill worms). The song finally reaches it's crescendo(the highest point reached in a progressive increase of intensity) where the most interesting action happens and you get to see the big SD plays happen.


Island Team17 on the other hand...

As always, it's still nice to see creativity that the players come up with, however it's really lacking that Sudden Death intensity which makes Team17 absolutely shine in my opinion. I can see why it's fun for Team17 players who enjoy Battlerace mechanics and chuting around, having a new environment to adapt to, that isn't really that fun to watch though for me personally.

As a spectator it just looks even more luck based, this doesn't mean it doesn't have skill, it still takes a lot of skill to master the weapons, get around the map quickly and think of creative solutions on the spot. Though at the same time the map is just so open it doesn't feel like a controlled environment at all. You don't have anywhere near the same level of protection and map control because crates aren't as defined by the map on their arrival. Then there are way more airstrike weapons and possible attacks, even when you get blocked there's a high chance you will have picked up and air strike weapon, which i've seen multiple times already. This scheme, more than ever feels like getting the right weapons at the right time will give you the win, more than dual cavern.

Maybe if we had the ability to see what the players actually have, then as a spectator you could have an extra level of excitement, like watching a soap drama when you know information that they don't know about each other, and the tension you feel as it plays out.

I feel like any average player who kind of knows what they are doing can get lucky and beat a top player, which is also why I believe Team17 in general is more popular, it's easier to play and win. It's more fun for casual players.


I'd like if the most experienced players could go into great detail explaining, in their own words, the benefits and reasons to enjoy this scheme. Maybe i'm looking at this scheme with a closed mind.

Right now though, i'm just glad you are allowed to refuse Island Team17 in the Allround League.

[FoxHound]

I enjoyed a lot playing T17 on open maps, just like only crates was played in WWP. It is nice. The Sudden Death at caves can take the game too long and may end frequently in a draw. Open maps allow more weapons to the game and weapons that people rarely use, like MB Bomb. I think to play Island T17 you need a good scheme and the one being used for this is great.

[FoxHound]

I enjoy playing on two-layered caverns too, but I think usually playing on islands is better, no matter the scheme.

[Sycotropic]

As a spectator it just looks even more luck based, this doesn't mean it doesn't have skill, it still takes a lot of skill to master the weapons, get around the map quickly and think of creative solutions on the spot. Though at the same time the map is just so open it doesn't feel like a controlled environment at all. You don't have anywhere near the same level of protection and map control because crates aren't as defined by the map on their arrival. Then there are way more airstrike weapons and possible attacks, even when you get blocked there's a high chance you will have picked up and air strike weapon, which i've seen multiple times already. This scheme, more than ever feels like getting the right weapons at the right time will give you the win, more than dual cavern.

I disagree that island is more luck based than cavern. It's just that in dual cavern the luck is often all about getting good weapons for SD.

Luck in games is one factor that makes them interesting and replayable. Mitigating your bad luck by anticipating what weapons your opponent has and how they might use them is what differentiates good players from bad.

[TheKomodo]

I disagree that island is more luck based than cavern. It's just that in dual cavern the luck is often all about getting good weapons for SD.

Yes, and now in Island Team17, there is more luck because there are more opportunities, more weapons, more room to do stuff. You don't have as much protection, there are more ways to attack and be attacked, it's more challenging to control areas of the map because the map is open.

Every single crate you pick up has the power to sway the game, getting the right thing at the right time, or getting the right thing at the wrong time etc.

In caverns, you can control the map better because of the design and actual weapons that spawn in crates.

Luck in games is one factor that makes them interesting and replayable. Mitigating your bad luck by anticipating what weapons your opponent has and how they might use them is what differentiates good players from bad.

Some people like luck in games, some don't. I prefer to play in as luckless an environment as possible when it comes to competitive events. Then again, millions of people love playing slot machines.

I think it was HHC who said a similar thing before, that the luck factor makes these games really fun, especially in Roper and Team17.

I'm not having a go at people who enjoy it, different strokes for different folks, personally I don't want anything to do with Island Team17 though, it just gets me frustrated even thinking about that scheme.

[Sycotropic]

Yes, and now in Island Team17, there is more luck because there are more opportunities, more weapons, more room to do stuff. You don't have as much protection, there are more ways to attack and be attacked, it's more challenging to control areas of the map because the map is open.

Every single crate you pick up has the power to sway the game, getting the right thing at the right time, or getting the right thing at the wrong time etc.

In caverns, you can control the map better because of the design and actual weapons that spawn in crates.

I really think it's just about the same amount of luck involved, just different types. In caverns, where the crate spawns is a huge luck factor as well. Initial worm spawns can also heavily influence the game. Any differences are pretty insignificant when looking at the game as a whole.

I'm not having a go at people who enjoy it, different strokes for different folks, personally I don't want anything to do with Island Team17 though, it just gets me frustrated even thinking about that scheme.

It sort of seems like you're having a slight go at people who enjoy it by equating it to slots and downplaying the skill involved. If it gets you frustrated thinking about it, and you don't want anything to do with it, why are you here? I guess I was a bit bummed to see this Island T17-bashing thread right when we're trying to hype up this cup and get our remaining players. I would think you as the cup moderator would want to help with that cause rather than try to turn people off to the entire format..

[TheKomodo]

I really think it's just about the same amount of luck involved, just different types. In caverns, where the crate spawns is a huge luck factor as well. Initial worm spawns can also heavily influence the game. Any differences are pretty insignificant when looking at the game as a whole.

Guess we can agree to disagree there then.

It sort of seems like you're having a slight go at people who enjoy it by equating it to slots and downplaying the skill involved. If it gets you frustrated thinking about it, and you don't want anything to do with it, why are you here? I guess I was a bit bummed to see this Island T17-bashing thread right when we're trying to hype up this cup and get our remaining players. I would think you as the cup moderator would want to help with that cause rather than try to turn people off to the entire format..

You have the wrong idea Syc.

I was not equating Team17 to slots, that part of my reply was generally talking about how people in general find luck fun.

Think of it like this, I was agreeing with you that people enjoy luck in games, then saying, people even enjoy playing slots because slots are way worse.

This thread was made so I wanted to write my personal opinions about the scheme.

Besides, you have more players in a Cup than i've seen for many years, you have nothing to worry about lol.

[Kradie]

I contemplated whether to make this topic at the very start of Syc's Team17 cup. Then later it was specified it was open map, and that prompted me to ask the question why do some people prefer open maps for Team17? I wished to understand why, and so far I have received a fair amount of reasons here and there and I get it I sympathize with both sides. The question becomes if I am willing to roll over and adapt myself to this new way.

If more people in the future will ask for Island Teqm17 instead of the traditional map, then the latter may phase out in favor of the former.  If I for example would host a Team17 and someone would join and ask for Island, and I would say ''no'' then this person could leave. It could be like e.g: I host a Shopper on a Roper map, or a Roper on a Shopper map. I guess no one would play a roper on a shopper map? I know I wouldn't.

Yes I know it is a game and people should play how they like that's fine and all. BUT in general term. there has to be some standards set for those who prefer such. That's why maybe I think Island Team17 needs its own name to help separate itself from the traditional Team17, Island17 e.g.

When it comes to this cup I think the turnout is great and I am happy to see this sort of engagement in the community. So kudos to Syc

I meant no disrespect.

[Korydex]

Well there were 1, 2, 3 tournaments and the league, where islands were favored and it proved to be as good as cave atleast.