Team17 Map Preference

[Senator]

I haven't felt like there's a big difference in the amount of luck in cavern/island maps tbh. My winning ratio in island maps is also similar to what I have in cavern maps. Easy first turn plops can be avoided to some extent by choosing the map carefully. They happen quite rarely and it's not like you can't win from 3vs4. There's usually some trade-off when you go for a first turn kill (worse position, no crate or something).

Yes, and now in Island Team17, there is more luck because there are more opportunities, more weapons, more room to do stuff. You don't have as much protection, there are more ways to attack and be attacked, it's more challenging to control areas of the map because the map is open.

Those things add to the complexity/strategy and that's what makes T17 in island maps more interesting to me. As Run said on Discord:

Run — 20/09/2020
there was a point where, after about 10 years of t17s, i finally decided i didn't actually like them that much. there was this one game with Noodles/WormZ where we both kinda realised they were very formulaic (i wonder if i can find that game)... but that was cavern t17s. i've grown a fondness for island t17s for now just because i find myself having to think a lot harder, whereas with cavern t17s almost every move came to me as second-nature and it got a bit dull

however it's really lacking that Sudden Death intensity which makes Team17 absolutely shine in my opinion.

I feel like it's the opposite. SD in island maps is more interesting because there are more different scenarios and you can't freeze the game by simply blocking the tunnel with one girder. A lot of T17 games in cavern maps are just SD camping and then shooting SD weapons from the sides of the map. The T17 cup final games I had with Run (cavern maps) were more interesting than usually. There was actually some action in the SD (in one of the rounds there was a Select Worm in play, which explains).

IMO:
island Intermediate > cavern Intermediate
island Team17 > cavern Team17
island Elite > cavern Elite

[TheKomodo]

Also keep in mind, I stated at the very beginning my observations and opinion is based on spectating Island Team17s, not playing Island Team17s.

As I said, we can agree to disagree, as from what i've witnessed, Island Team17 games are far more wild and luck-based. The situation can change more rapidly depending on what crates people get. This is not related to the amount of skill whatsoever, both versions are still highly competitive and take a lot of practise to master all the strategies and mechanical skills. I am not saying there is no skill involved, it's still a great scheme for those who, for example as Chicken23 said, enjoy playing Poker.

I think people also assume sometimes that when "luck" is mentioned the person is implying there is no skill involved, that's not the case. When I say it's more luck-based, it simply means it's more out of your control based on map design and the amount of weapons and their probabilities.

Island Team17 is more challenging to win because there are more things going on, including crate luck being more open, less defense, more challenging to control the map and crate zones, more options for attacking in sudden death.


Based on statistics:

Worms League (Team17) by Syc, Hulk and Zemke

Results: https://kingbird.myphotos.cc/c1627cb9d01f77729b6eafb3e5535936/WL_player_stats.html
(thanks Deadcode and Dario)

Only Korydex had an exceptional win ratio with 80%(which is still lower than other schemes) if i'm not mistaken, everyone else was between 30-70%.

How many of those games were Cavern versus Island?



Random00 had 82% which is comparable to Korydex in WL.

TUS Team17 ERA #1 - Cavern maps only:

68% for top 10 average, 70% for top 5 average and 72% for top 3.

WL Team17 - Includes Island Maps:

55% for top 10 average, 60% for top 5 and 66% for top 3.

Maybe my opinion might not prove anything, surely those statistics mean something though?

Obviously TUS had WAY more games and players combined, though I don't really see anyone having much higher win ratios unless they really noob bash a lot.


I'd be interested in seeing a TRL Season of Island Team17 here on TUS, with as many active players as possible, all playing each other quite fairly.

I'd love to see a few players who are so good they still have much higher win ratios than most other good players, just like we see in BnG, TTRR, Shopper, WxW, etc...

[Senator]

WL had only like 10-15 players playing against each other so you can't really compare the win rates like that. I shouldn't have brought up my own win rates either because I have only 69 singles league games in island maps (WL+TUS) against a small group of players.

Edit: I will say though that I wouldn't be playing T17 in island maps if I found it way more luck based. So far so good.

[Chicken23]

The whole point of island t17 was to make a scheme that was playable on any map type, to help with in game ranks and be entry level for new players to competitive play, but still allow for experienced players to perform well over time.

The question shouldn't be about island or twin, but when will we stop playing with two fixed map types across all schemes and play them on any randomly generated map  to help with bringing in entry level players to leagues, and create schemes for in-game ranks.

If you look harder enough at the WL replays you'll find some games played in caverns that aren't twin level.

T17, Elite, and Inter are all perfect for in game WA ranks where the map is fixed and cannot be changed unless you rehost, and is random.

Elite in caverns is a thing! (or was)

[Korydex]

I was curious and checked the FB archive for stats of the most active T17 players. Here are the biggest winrates:

Ramb0 150 wins / 192 games = 78 % winrate
Mablak 117 wins  / 150 games = 78 % winrate
FlowingWater 97 wins / 143 games = 67 % winrate
Syc 56 wins  / 88 games = 63 % winrate
llvertigoll 86 wins / 139 games  = 61 % winrate

(its only cave maps I guess)

[TheKomodo]

I will say though that I wouldn't be playing T17 in island maps if I found it way more luck based. So far so good.

The statistics and matches i've seen so far tell me it's more luck based.

More freedom, more weapons, more reachable drop zones, means luck by definition can dramatically affect the game more often. Yes, the luck can balance itself out, that's still more luck though.

It's likely more balanced luck, as you aren't stuck in a cavern with as many unfair SD weapons(1 team gets what they need, the other doesn't) and draws because nobody gets anything useful. Though it's still more luck due there just being more options, more randomness of crate probability as well as their drop zones and the other things i've mentioned.

It's as if people associate luck with being less skilled or bad, that isn't what i'm saying at all. 

The reason I don't like playing it is because it's so unpredictable. I don't like relying on crates dropping within reach, not knowing if i'm going to be able to attack in my turn or not. Not knowing if my enemy has something better than me, and one of the reasons why other people like it so much, is because it's so unpredicatable lol.

[Sycotropic]

Yes, the luck can balance itself out, that's still more luck though.

If the luck balances out, you can't really say island T17s are more luck based.

It's as if people associate luck with being less skilled or bad, that isn't what i'm saying at all.

By definition, the more luck based something is, the less skill involved. They're inversely correlated. I don't think anyone thinks you're saying that T17 doesn't involve any skill at all, but by saying it's one of the more luck based schemes (but contradicting yourself by saying the luck balances out), you're effectively saying that it takes less skill than other schemes.

Basically every non-race scheme has a fair amount of luck in it but they tend to even out over time. I think one potential reason for lower win rates for T17 in past leagues is that it hasn't always been the most popular competitive scheme. If you only have the top T17 players playing each other, there won't be as high % win rate.

It's like Hearthstone or MTG or other card games.. they have heavy luck components and at the top level the highest win rates tend to start to even out at something like 70%. But there are dramatic skill differences in those games, even with the fairly limited number of decisions that can be made at each turn (compared to most worms schemes where the options are pretty limitless).

[TheKomodo]

By definition, the more luck based something is, the less skill involved. They're inversely correlated. I don't think anyone thinks you're saying that T17 doesn't involve any skill at all, but by saying it's one of the more luck based schemes (but contradicting yourself by saying the luck balances out), you're effectively saying that it takes less skill than other schemes.

That isn't true.

The mistake i've been doing this entire time(out of habit) is using the word "based".

I apologize for that and from now on won't say that when comparing Island Team17 to Cavern Team17.

Island Team17 involves more luck than Cavern Team17. That does not mean there is less skill involved.

If something has more luck, via random events out of your control, then you can manage that with more skill and experience. It seems to have a higher chance of balancing out as crates seem more easy to collect than in Cavern Team17 and i've seen enough games where both teams got powerful weapons.

It would feel more lucky to get all the good stuff while your opponent gets all the crap stuff now in Island Team17, meaning Cavern Team17 has a higher degree of one team getting screwed over by crate luck.

My very first impression when I saw ShyGuy streaming an Island Team17 Tournament was they require equal skill, though Island Team17 has more luck due to random looking events.

Now i'd say Island Team17 involves more critical thinking and adaptation, awareness of potential situations than Cavern Team17, because there is more luck.

This absolutely does not degrade the amount of skill involved, skill & experience comes with time and practise, luck is completely out of our control and always will be.

Basically every non-race scheme has a fair amount of luck in it but they tend to even out over time. I think one potential reason for lower win rates for T17 in past leagues is that it hasn't always been the most popular competitive scheme. If you only have the top T17 players playing each other, there won't be as high % win rate.

Team17 is definitely popular enough, I don't believe that is the reason. When I have more time later(about to do a music stream just now then 80hp Cup later) i'll do some actual statistics and compare schemes.

Shopper, Elite, Intermediate, Hysteria, Aerial, all have higher average win percentages in the top 10, those are not race schemes.

It's like Hearthstone or MTG or other card games.. they have heavy luck components and at the top level the highest win rates tend to start to even out at something like 70%. But there are dramatic skill differences in those games, even with the fairly limited number of decisions that can be made at each turn (compared to most worms schemes where the options are pretty limitless).

Never played those, though any card game with random dealing is bound to have a lot of luck involved.


I understand why there are so many of you who prefer Island over Cavern from what i've already said.

I'm just not a fan of randomness affecting a competitive game at every turn, regardless how much skill is involved in adapting to it.

[FoxHound]

Luck does not mean you have less skill in a game. A player can have a lot more knowledge of a game than the other player, but if the game relies too much on luck the guy that has less knowledge and less training has more chances to win the game than games that relies less on luck. However, luck brings more fun to a game, it makes you think more, adds different situations you have to deal. I think too much luck in a scheme is usually not-so-good for a game, and a game that has zero % luck might be boring or repetitive over time. That's why games usually add a luck factor but not way too much to make it easy to see who is the more prepared player. A game with a lot of luck is more democratic and gives more chances to people who are learning to play have some games to shine and like playing it. But at the same time a too much luck game hides the real MVP of the game, what is usually bad when you want to see who is better in a competition. Game with a lot of luck doesn't mean that there are no amazing plays too. A good player can make amazing moves and still lose the game because the opponent was more lucky. It is still amazing to watch very lucky schemes.

Team17 is a classic scheme, it has surely lots of replays available to compare with other schemes. If you compare Team17 with the underground schemes it is way more known.

[TheWalrus]

Basically every non-race scheme has a fair amount of luck in it but they tend to even out over time. I think one potential reason for lower win rates for T17 in past leagues is that it hasn't always been the most popular competitive scheme. If you only have the top T17 players playing each other, there won't be as high % win rate.

Statistics have shown there is a strong inverse correlation between sparsely played schemes and high win%.  So if T17 hasn't been the most popular scheme, you would expect the win% to be inversely proportional, as it is unilaterally with the other schemes with low games played. 

The stats clearly show T17 to be an outlier and extremely volatile predictively when compared to the other schemes.  Is T17 the most volatile scheme statistically because of the luck factor?  I think you would have to say yes.  Does T17 also have a high skill cap?  I think you would also have to say yes. 

I still want some statistics on island t17 vs cavern t17 to satiate my appetite for such things.

TL;DR: T17 is the most luck based scheme among the classic schemes but isn't comet dodging, good players still beat bad players at a high rate.

[Korydex]

btw the poll is missing the urban maps xD