Weapon balance ideas for intermediate?

[jattaman]

Hello
I'm not knowledgable about worm history, but did Intermediate stay the same throughout all the years?
I started playing online and people seem to play the same exact thing I've seen on my first copy of game on PSX.

Or did community introduce some balanced schemes, but they never beat the original in popularity?

I know that later there were Pro and Elite schemes that nerfed cluster bomb,(and oddly Pro has grenade buffed, anyone know why?), but from my experience noone wants to play them since they introduce worm placement and people don't have time for that.

[MonkeyIsland]

It did changed a bit to suit league games. A version by NNN league known as "NNN luckless" which has crates probabilities set to zero and reduced some weapons like Cluster bomb power.
In fact when we talk about Intermediate in the community we almost always mean the NNN scheme. You can checkout the scheme here:

https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-10/

[Korydex]

What MI said, also in 2021 very interesting variation, 80normal was introduced.

[FoxHound]

There are many examples of Intermediate variations (simple modifications) that were well thought. There's also some variants that are significantly different, but still similar.

Some examples:

• Dolly Sheep (I played this one a lot and this is one of my favourites)
• Rush (seems great)
• CreamFlavour (seems great)
• Deathmatch42 (this is offline only, but now that it's possible to play with CPU online, it can be interesting 2vs2. It's besically a very hard Deathmatch version, the link I sent is an archive, but I have the scheme's description and the file, maybe some replays too).
• Windy Day (this is similar to Intermediate, with wind affecting worms)
• 80 Normal was already mentioned, it's a great one. But before 80 Normal Dario created 90 normal (80 normal is the evolution, better in my opinion)
• Freemediate (this one I know you are aware of, but I will reinforce it, because it's great.
• Monkey Island already said about ONL/CWT scheme Crespo created. It's the most played scheme competitively and it is a good scheme.
• Rubber Rush is a Shot Doesn't End Turn intermediate-like scheme created by Dario. Gameplay seems very nice.
• Your scheme jattamediate seems very good too.
• Abnormal is famous scheme (a lot of people play) which is basically Intermediate, but you have to suicide your own worms to win.
• NormalPro and NormalPro v2 seem to be very good variations based on the CWT one MI mentioned.
• The scheme used in this cup seems good too, but it is probably inspired by 80 Normal. I will reinforce that a powerful girl organized this cup: Every Team Weapon Matters
• IntermediatePlus seems good too.
• Darkless avoids Darksiding (when players only hide, are passive and do not attack, only runaway)
• TUS Normal League. Not sure if this was one day an official scheme, but it is not official on TUS nowadays. If it was never used officially, it is a proposal.
  

You can also use the TUS search to find the schemes you want, like this or this other.

There are probably more intermediate-like schemes around worms community, some old ones from Blame The Pixel, Worm Olympics, WMDB, WSDB, LTK's site, LigaWorms, Worms.org.ua, Worms Czesky and so many other websites.

[h3oCharles]

it's a very delicate balancing act, cuz as soon as you touch something, then something stupid is about to happen... kinda like trying to change counter-strike's mechanics

[rUNaW4y]

Hello
I'm not knowledgable about worm history, but did Intermediate stay the same throughout all the years?
I started playing online and people seem to play the same exact thing I've seen on my first copy of game on PSX.

Or did community introduce some balanced schemes, but they never beat the original in popularity?

I know that later there were Pro and Elite schemes that nerfed cluster bomb,(and oddly Pro has grenade buffed, anyone know why?), but from my experience noone wants to play them since they introduce worm placement and people don't have time for that.

Why do you consider the historical intermediate version unbalanced? Can you please provide further details about your issues?

[FoxHound]

it's a very delicate balancing act, cuz as soon as you touch something, then something stupid is about to happen... kinda like trying to change counter-strike's mechanics

I think Intermediate is easy to balance compared to other schemes, specially RubberWorm/Extended Scheme Options ones.

Snooker was very hard to balance. Months of testings.
Flat Earth Apocalypse was very hard too. Crates cannot increase the health way too much and must still help you survive for longer. Considering that 1-6 players can play.
No Jumping by Kredens was probably very hard to balance too.
There are other schemes such as Drive for Weapons that to make the map work well without easy shortcuts or serious problems is very hard.

I gave a break from a scheme that is being hard to balance the map with the scheme too and is also based on WFW.
Some schemes sbs made probably were hard to balance too.

Even Jet Pack War that doesn't require so special maps was not so easy to balance.

Goku Battle Arena took some time to balance probably.

Usually schemes with huge flood or with Health Crates, Multishot, complex physics modifications are difficult to balance. Weapon and utility crates can be complicated to balance too, e.g. in Kaos-like schemes.

[FoxHound]

Why do you consider the historical intermediate version unbalanced? Can you please provide further details about your issues?

Intermediate is balanced. But to play it in a different way, when you modify it you need to consider a lot of things. For example, changing the worms health can make some weapons become stronger or weaker. I think shotgun in intermediate can be used almost in all turns which makes the game more repetitive, predictable and boring. I'm saying this, but I know the Shotgun can make magic and is very versatile with its secrets. I think too many ropes make players easy access the entire map and drop weapons on the head of the worm. Less ropes makes the game rely on more caution, save ammo, do not fall, more artillery. You have to think a lot. I understand that rope knocks make some incredible moves and can surprise a lot. But I still prefer to play with less ropes.

[FoxHound]

Two other things that really bothers me in Intermediate:

1 HP sudden death. For me it was mainly designed to defeat CPU5, resisting the perfect shots to have a chance in SD. For who is winning is a bit frustrating when this happens specially when players don't have a notion when it will start. Who is losing will try to Darkside the whole game until it starts. I don't like this.

Too slow water rising. In cave games that players wait the water to reach the top of the map to use homing weapons, it's torture to wait that long, with 45 seconds of turn time. Also, I think the rise is not so impactful while in game after so much time waiting for the Sudden death. To the water rise slowly, SD should start way earlier.

[jattaman]

Thank you for all of your replies.

I have a question, which intermediate version is loaded when using hostingbuddy !host intermediate? or !host normal? Majority of people on wormnet use this from what I seen, I think.

Hello
I'm not knowledgable about worm history, but did Intermediate stay the same throughout all the years?
I started playing online and people seem to play the same exact thing I've seen on my first copy of game on PSX.

Or did community introduce some balanced schemes, but they never beat the original in popularity?

I know that later there were Pro and Elite schemes that nerfed cluster bomb,(and oddly Pro has grenade buffed, anyone know why?), but from my experience noone wants to play them since they introduce worm placement and people don't have time for that.

Why do you consider the historical intermediate version unbalanced? Can you please provide further details about your issues?

Foxhound already said about 1HP sudden death and shotgun and I share his reasons for why I dislike these. From my side, I want to also mention the cluster bomb and mortar "tricks". I just feel that it's not what these weapons were meant to do, hence I'm calling it "unbalanced" at 3 stars power, but it's a matter of preference I think. I also don't like how some teams are sometime totally screwed with random placement - and me and my friends sometimes don't have time for playing many rounds or for worm placement - this was my main inspiration to create an intermediate variation of my own.

I think that, all in all, worms armageddon is a symmetrical game. It's not assymetrical, like let's say, starcraft or age of empires - where every player is given different means to achieve victory. Every balance change in a symmetrical game can be rejected with argument "you can do the same" or "you play under the same circumstances"

Luck in crates is another topic touching "balance" - I think that worms without crates doesn't feel the same, but I perfectly understand why people play intermediate without crates at all.

[jattaman]

[...]
Too slow water rising. In cave games that players wait the water to reach the top of the map to use homing weapons, it's torture to wait that long, with 45 seconds of turn time. Also, I think the rise is not so impactful while in game after so much time waiting for the Sudden death. To the water rise slowly, SD should start way earlier.

I wasn't aware of the cave maps water dilemma, as I play islands 99% of the time. Which level of water raising do you think would be best for intermediate? There are values besides 3 default ones(5,20,45), like 37 or 57.

[h3oCharles]

which intermediate version is loaded when using hostingbuddy !host intermediate? or !host normal?

the default [ Intermediate ] scheme that comes with WA

[FoxHound]

I wasn't aware of the cave maps water dilemma, as I play islands 99% of the time. Which level of water raising do you think would be best for intermediate? There are values besides 3 default ones(5,20,45), like 37 or 57.

My favourite water rise is 13 pixels. It is between 5 and 20. I usually choose this value on my conventional gameplay schemes. It all depends on the scheme and map, I usually test a lot. The moment the Sudden Death starts is also important. If Sudden Death is very late, water can rise faster. if SD starts very soon, usually you set a small flood rise. 13px works very well on most of the times, because 20 pixels (medium water rise) is usually a bit too many.

[FoxHound]

I want to also mention the cluster bomb and mortar "tricks". I just feel that it's not what these weapons were meant to do, hence I'm calling it "unbalanced" at 3 stars power, but it's a matter of preference I think.

Yeah, but I really like the "Cluster F*ck" trick and the mortar being used that tricky way to make some massive damage. It is so satisfying to me when someone position their worm on an inclination, so I can punish severely that worm. It is not a guaranteed kill with 3 stars, usually it will take around 90 hp. The Cluster and the mortar are almost never used if not by these tricks. Playing by the intended way, they are more useful with very low HP worms or worms that can plop easily, but are far away. Even on these situations there are still so many other weapons to use... The tricks require skill by players.

So, I would prefer to keep the 3 stars cluster and mortar, but limit their ammo to 1, maybe 2 for mortar.

2 stars cluster can still make a damage above 50HP and knock worms very fast to the side. However, it's more risky than the 3 stars shotgun that can kill 100 HP worms in 2 turns. That's why I don't like so much 2 stars for cluster bomb and mortar, but I understand why people prefer to play this way. Limiting the ammo to x1 people would rarely spend the cluster on a low HP worm, unless all worms of the game are low HP or it is an important kill.

[jattaman]

"So, I would prefer to keep the 3 stars cluster and mortar, but limit their ammo to 1, maybe 2 for mortar."

Personally, I really like the fact that you have another option for killing far away worms and destroying crates. Carefully adjusting mortar is also fun, and in some situations better than bazooka or grenade. Reducing ammo on these really takes some of the "we have no more ropes and we have a fierce long-distance exchange" away. There are many, many options to harm someone close range, dynamite and its variations, axe, well placed petrol, flamethrower and minigun.