[Allround PO system (advantageous for ropers)? + Suggestion

[Gabriel]

Original post

Roper and WxW are different schemes, and so is TTRR. It's not like being good at one of them automatically makes you good at the rest, so that's not a valid argument, in my opinion.

If two players (a ground player and a rope player) are facing each other in PO's, whoever earned more points during the regular season gets to pick 3 schemes. If the person that got more points didn't get any benefit from it, what would be the encouragement for a person to play after qualifying to PO's?

And I also agree that if you are gonna play allround league, you should be able to defend yourself in any scheme, so this sort of change makes it unfair for people that, just like ground specialists, have chosen to specialize in rope schemes.

[Albus]

Original post

Roper and WxW are different schemes, and so is TTRR. It's not like being good at one of them automatically makes you good at the rest, so that's not a valid argument, in my opinion.

I know they are different schemes. But I'm referring to the fact who is good at rope schemes against who is noob with rope. If you're good at rope and your opponent doesn't like to roping, you'll get 2 or 3 free wins guaranteed. However, the fact that someone is good at 1 ground scheme, for example, intermediate, does not mean that he will be good at hysteria. I'm good at intermediate but I'm bad at hysteria and BnG, and, in order to have chances against someone who isn't good at hysteria/BnG either, I'll have to train and invest time in those schemes. That doesn't happen to people who are good at rope. If you're just playing TTRR and you're really good at it, you don't need to train WxW and Roper to beat someone who isn't good at rope, so you will have 2 or 3 free wins only because of 1 skill (rope skills) in one scheme, because you will always have free wins in rope schemes against people who is noob in roping.

So, I don't consider who wins allround PO an allround player if he gets 3 free wins in rope schemes. Someone can be good in hysteria, BnG, intermediate, elite and lose the PO just because this person is not good with rope and the oponnent get 3 free wins in rope schemes.


Who diserve to be called an allround player or at leas more close to it?
1) pro player in intermediate, hysteria, BnG, team17, but not so good with rope;
2) a guy who, just because is pro with rope, get 3 free wins in the PO picking rope schemes.
Also I think it's much easier to get first place in PO seeds (and have right to 3 picks)  if you are pro with roper.

[Gabriel]

That doesn't happen to people who are good at rope. If you're just playing TTRR and you're really good at it, you don't need to train WxW and Roper to beat someone who isn't good at rope, so you will have 2 or 3 free wins only because of 1 skill (rope skills) in one scheme, because you will always have free wins in rope schemes against people who is noob in roping.

This is a bold assumption you can't really prove. I had to practice like 5 years to become mediocre at TTRR, and even then I can't play Roper to save my life.

So, I don't consider who wins allround PO an allround player if he gets 3 free wins in rope schemes. Someone can be good in hysteria, BnG, intermediate, elite and lose the PO just because this person is not good with rope and the oponnent get 3 free wins in rope schemes.

Neither is a person that picks 3 ground schemes, but that's not the league's problem. If we had some sort of "balanced" competition, like, a lot of good Allround players, maybe PO's wouldn't look so unbalanced. The problem right now is we don't have the amount of real "Allround" players to justify having it as it is, and separating Rope from Ground probably would make it better, but I don't know.

Actually, IMO, nobody that is only able to play "one half" of the schemes should be winning an "Allround" title.

[Albus]

That doesn't happen to people who are good at rope. If you're just playing TTRR and you're really good at it, you don't need to train WxW and Roper to beat someone who isn't good at rope, so you will have 2 or 3 free wins only because of 1 skill (rope skills) in one scheme, because you will always have free wins in rope schemes against people who is noob in roping.

This is a bold assumption you can't really prove. I had to practice like 5 years to become mediocre at TTRR, and even then I can't play Roper to save my life.

I don't think so. If you are a pro TTRR player, you will be at least a good player in other rope schemes, because you know mechanics, know how to roping fast and safe etc. So, even if you don't practice wxw and roper too much, I'm sure you can beat who don't like or barely know how to touch 2 walls in roper and make an atack in SD.

So, I don't consider who wins allround PO an allround player if he gets 3 free wins in rope schemes. Someone can be good in hysteria, BnG, intermediate, elite and lose the PO just because this person is not good with rope and the oponnent get 3 free wins in rope schemes.

Neither is a person that picks 3 ground schemes, but that's not the league's problem. If we had some sort of "balanced" competition, like, a lot of good Allround players, maybe PO's wouldn't look so unbalanced. The problem right now is we don't have the amount of real "Allround" players to justify having it as it is, and separating Rope from Ground probably would make it better, but I don't know.

Yes... but at least this person who master many ground schemes (elite, t17, hysteria, intermediate, bng) is much more closer to an allround player (despite not being a true allround player) then one person who wins PO just because is PRO with one main skill (rope skills).

[Gabriel]

That doesn't happen to people who are good at rope. If you're just playing TTRR and you're really good at it, you don't need to train WxW and Roper to beat someone who isn't good at rope, so you will have 2 or 3 free wins only because of 1 skill (rope skills) in one scheme, because you will always have free wins in rope schemes against people who is noob in roping.

This is a bold assumption you can't really prove. I had to practice like 5 years to become mediocre at TTRR, and even then I can't play Roper to save my life.

I don't think so. If you are a pro TTRR player, you will be at least a good player in other rope schemes, because you know mechanics, know how to roping fast and safe etc. So, even if you don't practice wxw and roper too much, I'm sure you can beat who don't like or barely know how to touch 2 walls in roper and make an atack in SD.

So, I don't consider who wins allround PO an allround player if he gets 3 free wins in rope schemes. Someone can be good in hysteria, BnG, intermediate, elite and lose the PO just because this person is not good with rope and the oponnent get 3 free wins in rope schemes.

Neither is a person that picks 3 ground schemes, but that's not the league's problem. If we had some sort of "balanced" competition, like, a lot of good Allround players, maybe PO's wouldn't look so unbalanced. The problem right now is we don't have the amount of real "Allround" players to justify having it as it is, and separating Rope from Ground probably would make it better, but I don't know.

Yes... but at least this person who master many ground schemes (elite, t17, hysteria, intermediate, bng) is much more closer to an allround player (despite not being a true allround player) then one person who wins PO just because is PRO with one main skill (rope skills).

I disagree with you, mostly on the rope schemes part, but that's it I suppose. I'm not here to change anyone's mind.

[Albus]

See... if you practice 10 years ONLY TTRR (nothing else) you agree with me that you will become a PRO TTRR player with very good rope skills right? With that skills, you can play roper, RR, and wxw? Of course you can. And even if you are not so good in those other rope schemes, you still can beat easily someone who doesn't like rope schemes and don't practice it right?

Now, imagine that I play only intermediate for 10 years and become a pro in this scheme. You think because I'm a pro in inter I necessary have any advantage in BnG or hysteria for example? OFC not. I can give the name for you of many pro inter guys who will suck in these schemes. So, this ground scheme player who became a pro in intermediate, will need invest a good ammount of time to become a pro in BnG and hysteria in order to have more chances to win in his ground picks. But the guy who became a pro over 10 years of practising TTRR, doesn't need invest any more time to beat this guy in his rope schemes that he never played before (because he surely will have some advantage he gained from TTRR experience, ie, roping fast, safe etc). So, who wins a allround PO only because rope picks, is much less of an allround player then a guy who is good in several ground schemes.

[Sbaffo]

If you decide to waste your whole time playing only intermediate that’s only your fault, and btw you’re the only who keep saying that playing ttrr is like playing wxw or shopper 🤣🤣

[Albus]

If you decide to waste your whole time playing only intermediate that’s only your fault, and btw you’re the only who keep saying that playing ttrr is like playing wxw or shopper 🤣🤣

I never said that. You don't understand anything I say do you?

I'm saying that anyone who spends 10 years playing only TTRR will at least play wxw and roper very well, as these schemes require a common core skill, ie rope skill, in order to you highly increase your chances to win. So, this guys can be a pro only in TTRR (never play other rope schemes) and get first place in allround PO against a ground scheme player who is good in many ground schemes which demand diff skills (for example, inter, hysteria, BnG).

Anyone who spends 10 years playing only intermediate, will not, because of that, have an advantage in BnG or hysteria, for example. So someone who is pro at intermediate, BnG and hysteria, but very average at roping schemes, imo, deserves much more an allround trophy (although he is not a true pro allround player) than a guy who only mastered one main skill (rope skill) and wins because of that free wins in rope picks.

[Albus]

@topic,
Yes a very good roper have higher chance of winning rope schemes than a very good ground player in ground schemes but not by a big margin. One solution to combat that is by getting a higher seed in playoffs and get the first pick. You can decrease your opponent picks to 2, so you could pick maximum 3 ground schemes.

Yes, the best strategy for the ground player, according to the current system, is to get 1st place and be entitled to the 3 picks.

But still, I think the roper player has an advantage in the current system even if he has only 2 picks. I will tell you why in my opinion.

The schemes that can be chosen in the allround PO are as follows:

aerial
Big RR / Tower Race
BNG
Elite
hysteria
Intermediate
Roper
shopper
team17
TTRR (in RR)
WxW

Imagine 2 examples of players:

Player 1) played 10 years of BnG. The guy is a beast in BnG, but only that.
Player 2) played 10 years of TTRR. The guy have insane skills in TTRR. Play super fast and safe with the rope.

Who is most favored in the system? Let's see.

Player 2) will definitely have 2 free wins in any rope scheme, as he has mastered ONLY one skill, the rope skill. This means that this player will only need to train 1 more scheme to win the PO.

Player 1) has only one guaranteed win, which is BnG. In order to win the PO, he will have to learn two new schemes in order to achieve a high chance of winning in these other schemes.

In other words, the current system, in my opinion, favors the rope player (requiring less effort from him in order to beat the ground player), that's why I proposed the suggestion that only 1 rope scheme could be chosen.


Making a comparison, I see the PO system as something like this:

player 1 (pro TTRR player) - Hafthor Bjornsson.
player 2 (pro BnG player) - Usain Bolt.

Both will participate in a competition involving various sports and they have to win a Bo5.
It turns out that Bjornsson will have the advantage, as he has several sports options where he will uses a main and core skill (brute force - which in the case of the TTRR player, would be the skill with the rope). Usain Bolt will have to work harder, as the skill he has (running - in the case of the BnG player, aiming skill) it won't give him such a huge advantage in the other sports he chooses, differently of what happens to Bjornsson.

[Korydex]

BnG player would also be good at Aerial and Hysteria

[Lupastic]

BnG player would also be good at Aerial and Hysteria

and at Elite ^.-

[Albus]

BnG player would also be good at Aerial and Hysteria

and at Elite ^.-

Yes. I think every skill you acquire in one scheme can be used in another, to a greater or lesser extent. But if we look at allround PO schemes, the ones that benefit the most is the rope skill, as this is main and core skill in any rope scheme.

The skills of BnG, although they can be used in these other schemes (including intermediate - not mentioned there), is not enough. You will need to develop other skills, eg, positioning, tactics, strategy, good knowledge of scheme settings etc. You can be bad at BnG and beat someone in these schemes, even if that person is better than you in BnG. This doesn't happen with rope schemes, where if you are noob with the rope, and the guy is PRO with the rope (even if he plays only one scheme, eg, TTRR), he will beat you in any rope scheme. That's why I suggested that, unless agreed, the player has the right to choose only 1 rope scheme. That way we would have allround PO involving more diverse abilities (the true spirit of allround).

[Kaleu]

In my opinion the best solution for this would be to have 2 extra playoffs making it to 3 Playoffs for every season for each league category instead of currently 1.
That would be:

PO Rope - Rope schemes.
PO Default - Default schemes.
PO Allround - All schemes (Using Albus' format.)

Each player that reaches PO in the season would be elegible to play these, fair chances to defaulters and ropers, no more excuses... And in a way it would encourage players even more as they would then be able to collect 3 trophies per season instead of just 1. 
What do you guys think? 

Would definately come back more active if this gets implemented.

[Lupastic]

In my opinion the best solution for this would be to have 2 extra playoffs making it to 3 Playoffs for every season for each league category instead of currently 1.
That would be:

PO Rope - Rope schemes.
PO Default - Default schemes.
PO Allround - All schemes (Using Albus' format.)

Each player that reaches PO in the season would be elegible to play these, fair chances to defaulters and ropers, no more excuses... And in a way it would encourage players even more as they would then be able to collect 3 trophies per season instead of just 1. 
What do you guys think? 

Would definately come back more active if this gets implemented.

I support this idea c: Would be noice. If old time players are giving hints of the possiblity that they might return, why not make some reforms to the system? We might have more players and even more activity in the leagues

[Albus]

Yes. The idea is to provide players with places where they fit. If you are a ground player, you will have the default PO with ground schemes. If you want to be a rope player, you will have rope PO with rope schemes. But if you want to be an allround player, you will have allround PO, where you have to play a varied combination of rope and ground schemes that require different skills.