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Author Topic: Anti-lock in BnG  (Read 9038 times)

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Offline TheKaren

Anti-lock in BnG
« on: September 02, 2020, 01:43 PM »
I was just in a game with Sensei & SiD talking about scheme changes and I was asking if they knew why Anti-lock was added to BnG but not all other schemes, it was suggested I should make a post, which almost gave me a heart attack  :D

Was this rule added to BnG without asking the community 1st? And all the other added rules in general?

TL;DR - Implementing this rule gives players who use notching to aim a HUGE advantage, they can hit anywhere on the map using math, especially with any wind power using full power shots, and full power grenades, everyone knows how easy it is to do full power shots.

3s grenades, and 5s low gravity grenades are also easy to hit because of the specific position the power is released has visual cues with the cursor making those easy as well, there is a reason why these are the most common shots in BnG.

People who don't use notching, have to guess every time.



Detailed explanation:

To put it simply, this rule helps notchers, and is something we've tried to prevent for as long as I can remember, so i'm completely baffled as to why we are doing the opposite now, which is helping notchers by giving them an advantage over players who don't notch and pretty much guess where to shoot, then adjust it.

1st off let's define what notching is, not to be confused with another method I know a few players used called steps(using the different sprite positions in the same way notching works).

A "notch" is the smallest movement possible by tapping the arrow key very quickly, depending on what keyboard you have, your own reflexes, and the sensitivity, sometimes it will move the distance of 2 or more notches with each press, but it's really easy to find a cheap keyboard which has low sensitivity making people able to go "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, etc", counting out these shots.

1st off, let's begin by explaining how easy it is to achieve a full power shot(FP for short), you basically hold down the fire button and don't let go until it automatically fires because it reached maximum power, this makes it impossible to miss 100% power shots.

Let's also take into account what was said in the TL;DR section with the visual cues for 3s and 5s LG shots.

Ok, now, "notching" is using this information, specific resolutions, and mathematics to ensure pixel perfect accuracy, especially with 4 second full power grenades which are the easiest shot in the game because of this method, and is a massive reason why repeating shots and generally using 4s full power grenades were sort of looked at as "cheap" in the first place. Notching can be used for almost every type of shot, with and without low gravity, including:

4s FP / 3s / Banks / Transfers / 4s & 5s FP Floorbanks / 5s LG / 4s LG / Bunnyhops / Etc.

People who know notching know how to count out their shots from a perfectly vertical 0 degree aim, so for them anti-lock doesn't prevent this at all, if anything it can help as it always starts from 0/90 degree angles.

Notching also includes knowing exactly where a bazooka will explode by aiming straight up, full power, for every wind power possible, and knowing how many "notches" to adjust it by from 0 degrees to make it hit anywhere, which makes it possible to even shoot through small gaps because they know the math and have the experience of knowing the path the bazooka will follow with each level of wind power aimed straight up with full power.

People who don't know how to use notching, basically people who aren't using math, and rely on adjusting their aim using natural methods like some people use girders to measure distance between kamikazi's and stuff, knowing exactly where to stand on a worms head to place a mine/dynamite by carefully memorizing sprite positions, in BnG people can use a combination of the background, placing their finger over the cursor, land objects and destroyed land, to reset their aim and adjust their shot carefully.

I understand the nature behind the decision to use anti-lock, in theory, it's a fair move, in practise, it opens up a massive advantage for people who are notching.

I hope you can reconsider and remove the anti-lock rule.



« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 04:26 PM by TheKomodo »

Offline lalo

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2020, 07:06 PM »
Despite the good faith, anti-lock will only make notching easier if you really know how to notch.
As someone who played side by side with you against notchers, I had to create my own method of notching to be competitive. I can't recall everything perfectly, so I might make some mistakes but let me explain myself:

As you mention, every step or notch equals certain distance in the map, you can call this distance from your own worm 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on. If I set the cross aim completely vertical I can move notch by notch reaching the number I want and throw a 4FP which I know exactly where it will go. Going down 11 notches will impact in the 11th space in the map, if in the next turn you move to 7 I can stay in the 11th notch and just increase the power until it touches the cross aim and release a 3s nade and I know it will land perfectly. When you know the basics of notching you can master 3s, 4sFP, any wind and so on. Now you can prepare a nice spreadsheet in Excel and share it with your mates! (Hi CF, hi DT).
If there's an anti-lock rule implemented you're making it easier for someone like me. You go to the space 12, I walk to the precise distance I know that I shoot and will land right in your worm. It will be just harder for people that go with the flow and throw anything they think it's right.

Ironically, if we keep worms anchored you have better chances against a notcher because it's harder to blow up the space between -let's say- 10 and 11 space. So if you put your worm right in the middle of these spaces in the map you get the upper hand against me for example.

Having this knowledge, the best way to level the skill gap it's to reveal the notching secrets and techniques to everyone. Maybe, Mablak reached the same conclusion and that's the reason he wrote an extensive guideline of notching allowing anyone to learn it, and Anubis published a map with these spaces marked in the map allowing you to practise it and master a wide array of shots.

Anyhow, the reality is that competition is dead and BnG is already six feet under. Notching outside a competitive environment has no place or meaning.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 07:15 PM by lalo »

Offline TheKaren

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2020, 08:23 PM »
I mean, even with anti-lock you can still re-aim with your finger on screen anyway.

It's a pointless rule.

Offline JayP

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2020, 08:57 PM »
I mean if you go back far enough petrol bombs were also part of BnG for a period of time along with clusters and 20 sec turn time. Like everything evolution of the game, I am not the biggest fan of ant-locked worming, but it serves it purposes.
Skill comes and goes,
But Class is Eternal

Offline Senator

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2020, 09:15 PM »
@lalo, JayP

We are talking about anti-lock aim that resets your aim between turns. Intended to make repeat shots more challenging as the description says.

Was this rule added to BnG without asking the community 1st? And all the other added rules in general?

Reaiming before every shot was already in the rules and that's obviously the motive for enabling this scheme setting. It makes you follow that rule automatically. Likewise rope knocking and glitches OFF make you follow already existing rules automatically. The zero wind feature for RR was desired I think.

Korydex and Kaleu uploaded these scheme files for 3.8. I consulted KRD about the anti-lock aim feature for BnG. Then I asked MI if I can update the scheme files. So yeah, I was lazy to open threads for these.

Of course these changes can be reverted if they turn out to be bad. We've done it before with anti-lock power for BnG etc.

People who don't know how to use notching, basically people who aren't using math, and rely on adjusting their aim using natural methods like some people use girders to measure distance between kamikazi's and stuff, knowing exactly where to stand on a worms head to place a mine/dynamite by carefully memorizing sprite positions, in BnG people can use a combination of the background, placing their finger over the cursor, land objects and destroyed land, to reset their aim and adjust their shot carefully.

Not all use external visual aids (thumb, ruler or whatever), though. You can't compare them to memorizing - you don't need to memorize because of them.

Offline StepS

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2020, 09:17 PM »
What if anti-lock aim would randomize the angle instead of pinning to 0/90?

Problem solved.

(As a matter of fact, you have probably noticed there are two anti-lock aim options: the base game one resets to nearest, so 0 or 90, while RubberWorm anti-lock aim always resets to horizontal 0 degrees).
Dec 30 2013 23:59:44 <StepS> windowed mode isn't the only thing you need about frontend
Dec 30 2013 23:59:49 <StepS> you need it to be actually bigger
Dec 31 2013 00:00:13 <StepS> it actually is very small on my 15-inch full HD screen
Dec 31 2013 00:00:25 <StepS> while running at 640x480 or stretched mode makes it fuzzy
Dec 31 2013 00:00:44 <StepS> this problem has been around since the Worms Armageddon's release and no one has even tried to beat it
[...]

Offline TheKaren

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2020, 09:50 PM »
Was this rule added to BnG without asking the community 1st? And all the other added rules in general?
Korydex and Kaleu uploaded these scheme files for 3.8. I consulted KRD about the anti-lock aim feature for BnG. Then I asked MI if I can update the scheme files. So yeah, I was lazy to open threads for these.

I don't believe that was a good choice, not just for BnG, but for all the schemes, I don't think it's right to just change things in private like this, personally it's about as frustrating to me as how governments pass laws when everyone is distracted.


People who don't know how to use notching, basically people who aren't using math, and rely on adjusting their aim using natural methods like some people use girders to measure distance between kamikazi's and stuff, knowing exactly where to stand on a worms head to place a mine/dynamite by carefully memorizing sprite positions, in BnG people can use a combination of the background, placing their finger over the cursor, land objects and destroyed land, to reset their aim and adjust their shot carefully.

Not all use external visual aids (thumb, ruler or whatever), though. You can't compare them to memorizing - you don't need to memorize because of them.

There isn't really any impact in your point here, I don't believe it is at all difficult to memorize any of that stuff, pretty much anyone who is passionate about any those schemes will learn whatever they need to, I for example don't have the slightest clue how to use pixel perfect dynamite placements, or use girder to judge kami distance, because i've never been interested enough to bother, but if I had any passion for those schemes i'm sure i'd have it memorized very quickly.

Even notching itself, is in my opinion extremely easy to become very good at, and the only reason we haven't seen more "barmans" is because BnG isn't a very popular scheme.

Another reminder, when I 1st got into BnG it's because M3ntal showed me how to notch 4s full power grenades, low wind bazookas, and 3s grenades, at that time LG wasn't even a thing in BnG schemes, unless you played with dw33b and Bamf etc, less than a week after he showed me notching I absolutely destroyed everyone in a 1v1 BnG tournament, I only missed like 3 shots that entire tournament, and in the following month or so went on to destroy the best BnG players that were around at the time, people who had been playing for years, this is what happens when someone is determined and passionate enough.

I soon realized that by employing notching, it had made me a very boring player, and was a display of poor sportsmanship, I received multiple complaints from people claiming I was cheating and it was unfair, so I never used notching in a league match ever again.

The point I am making, currently notching is legal, it's not against the rules as far as i'm aware, regardless how people feel about that, that is a fact.

The notchers lose nothing, the only way they can miss is by releasing the power wrong, either that or they aren't using the correct math.

The non-notchers lose the ability to adjust their aim quickly and accurately, even though it's still possible to re-aim using your thumb on screen with anti-lock enabled, you have to use cam-lock and keep your thumb on the screen between turns.

We should be taking steps in the direction to make it a more even playing field for everyone, this rule makes worse for non-notchers.


What if anti-lock aim would randomize the angle instead of pinning to 0/90?

Problem solved.

As said above, notchers can just aim straight up and start counting, non-notchers still have to guess every time.

I think the only solution is to somehow remove the ability to notch, and I don't know how that's possible with the current game options.



« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 09:52 PM by TheKomodo »

Offline lalo

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2020, 11:05 PM »
@lalo, JayP

We are talking about anti-lock aim that resets your aim between turns. Intended to make repeat shots more challenging as the description says.
Sorry, read quickly without seeing that description.

Anyways, you are not preventing any notcher from doing his work with your solution. This auto aim moves to 0 degree in your turn? Ok, the cross aim consists of let's say 10 notches and from that you calculate your shot. Moves to 90? Even easier.
Now a randomized auto aim makes it a bit harder but not really because I might not be able to notch my first shot but I can just stick my finger and do it the second time or use visual clues, or even better just select torch and from that aim notch in my very first turn rofl.

Are you preventing anyone from notching? Not at all
Are you making BnG simpler for people without much experience? No, you are adding more rules to an already hard to digest scheme.

Is notching a current problem in the league? No
Is BnG even played in the league? No
Is this league active anyways? No, it's just dibz against a random player
Is notching the biggest or even a decent issue to fix in this league? God dammit no!

Komo wants to push a more honorable way to play BnG and I applaud him, he cares for this game and has done a lot for it. If you think twice he has already implemented the best solution: put real effort and build a community from the ground, teach people and praise them for their improvement, make them feel proud of being a part of something great as he did with b2b instead of writing some clown rules ruining it more and ignoring the main problem as a politician does.

Now imagine the best set of rules preventing Mablak, Random, Barman, SPW and all the good notchers to notch. You think that will prevent them from beating anyone ass? No because notchers are usually competitive players leagues above the common one and notching is just an efficient way to win faster.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 12:42 AM by lalo »

Offline Kaleu

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2020, 12:49 AM »
I saw you blaming someone for an unsolved problem that is actually a problem of the game and no rules can solve it.
The best solution is remove that boring scheme as it causes too much controversy.

Was this rule added to BnG without asking the community 1st? And all the other added rules in general?
Korydex and Kaleu uploaded these scheme files for 3.8. I consulted KRD about the anti-lock aim feature for BnG. Then I asked MI if I can update the scheme files. So yeah, I was lazy to open threads for these.

I don't believe that was a good choice, not just for BnG, but for all the schemes, I don't think it's right to just change things in private like this, personally it's about as frustrating to me as how governments pass laws when everyone is distracted.

And yet this shocks a total of zero people because it were just rules embedded to schemes that were already very clear throughtout the years. In fact it improved all the schemes because people can't use any excuses anymore after abusing of glitches and other unwanted forbidden moves like knocks.

Furthermore, this change was not in private, even if it was, there is not an announcement forcing people to download and play with updated schemes.
https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/announcements/tus-now-supports-v3-8-schemes-32874/msg276577/#msg276577


You guys want to fix something? Put your asses in wormnet and make this game alive again.

Is it one of those "do as I say, not as I do" ? Cause I don't see you online for ages, unless you are under multiple aliases.  :D  :D
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 01:10 AM by Kaleu »
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Offline TheKaren

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2020, 01:37 AM »
I saw you blaming someone for an unsolved problem that is actually a problem of the game and no rules can solve it.
The best solution is remove that boring scheme as it causes too much controversy.

Who blamed who for what now?

To be honest, I don't disagree, maybe removing BnG would be a step forward, at least until we can figure out a way to prevent notching.

And yet this shocks a total of zero people because it were just rules embedded to schemes that were already very clear throughtout the years. In fact it improved all the schemes because people can't use any excuses anymore after abusing of glitches and other unwanted forbidden moves like knocks.

1. I'm shocked so saying 0 is already wrong, also, you are not psychic, you cannot possibly know how many people this bothers, granted I don't think the numbers are very high, but minorities should not be ignored when their concerns are legit.

2. In your opinion, it improved all the schemes, in my opinion it didn't, would you bet your life that everyone agrees with you?

Furthermore, this change was not in private, even if it was, there is not an announcement forcing people to download and play with updated schemes.
https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/announcements/tus-now-supports-v3-8-schemes-32874/msg276577/#msg276577

Senator said he consulted KRD, I see no record of this in public unless it was on discord on irc or something?

Offline Kaleu

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2020, 02:35 AM »
I saw you blaming someone for an unsolved problem that is actually a problem of the game and no rules can solve it.
The best solution is remove that boring scheme as it causes too much controversy.

Who blamed who for what now?

To be honest, I don't disagree, maybe removing BnG would be a step forward, at least until we can figure out a way to prevent notching.

And yet this shocks a total of zero people because it were just rules embedded to schemes that were already very clear throughtout the years. In fact it improved all the schemes because people can't use any excuses anymore after abusing of glitches and other unwanted forbidden moves like knocks.

1. I'm shocked so saying 0 is already wrong, also, you are not psychic, you cannot possibly know how many people this bothers, granted I don't think the numbers are very high, but minorities should not be ignored when their concerns are legit.

Funny you said that, I'd argue that you are a person, to me you are a living puppet, always ranting on unnecessary sujects, so zero is pretty precise at the moment.
Would you bet your life that I am the only one that thinks that?
League is very inactive, closer to death and the people active that actually plays daily like dibz, aladdin, albus didn't bother so why should we? To be honest it's much more up to them.



Senator said he consulted KRD, I see no record of this in public unless it was on discord on irc or something?

I don't think that MI or Senator need to give satisfactions or warn people for every decision they make, in fact it was never clear that this site was a democracy, if you are not satisfied stop going here and make your own website. We don't pay for this and we get so much.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 02:39 AM by Kaleu »
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Offline TheKaren

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2020, 10:36 AM »
Ok, i'll move past all those ridiculously childish statements you just made and focus on the things related to this league.

I asked you a question - "Who blamed who for what now?" - You just threw out an accusation at someone and didn't even bother to say who, what's that all about?

"always ranting on unnecessary sujects" - I've literally played between 10k and 20k hours of BnG since 2004, in peak times I spent 10+ hours a day, every day, every month, playing this scheme, hosting tournaments, created an amazing community which quite frankly were some of the best times of my life, created a league that was successful for BnG fans, played thousands of competitive singles & clanners spread across a2b/FB/TUS/WO and tournaments, I was literally in love with this scheme for a massive chunk of my life and spent a lot of time teaching others how to play as well, I always had time for other people no matter what and never ignored anyone no matter how good or bad they were at the game I was always willing to help, even if they hated me and insulted me.

I believe i've earned the right to have my opinion at least heard when it comes to BnG, you don't have to agree with me, and if you want to act hostile that's up to you, I will always respond to the facts instead of trying to attack the person and their personality.

At the end of the day if I don't like the changes that are made, I simply won't play, but you can be damn sure i'm going to try and convince them otherwise, why wouldn't I? Nothing worth having in life comes easy and if you don't try, if you don't ask, you'll never achieve it.

Personally, I only stopped playing because as i've said before, I went homeless for a while and had to put all my stuff into storage back in February 2019, now i've got stuff back last week I can play again, i've always been around though watching the forums and sometimes commenting on things, waiting and hoping there might be an active league again, i've been thinking about joining a clan and trying to get some clanners happening, but this rule is an issue that stands in my way right now.

Yes, you are absolutely correct, MonkeyIsland and Senator don't need to warn people for every decision they make, MonkeyIsland could delete this entire website if he wanted and we wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

Ask yourself though, did MonkeyIsland make this website for himself, did he make this website so he can dictate things and make himself feel special, or did he make it for people who are incredibly passionate about this game and want a place to feel like a community and play at a professional level? And has he always taken into consideration the opinions of scheme masters and active players?

I also agreed it could be a step forward to remove BnG, since all it does it cause arguements, i'm willing to change and adapt and move forward, are you?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 10:40 AM by TheKomodo »

Offline Senator

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2020, 02:57 PM »
Anyways, you are not preventing any notcher from doing his work with your solution. This auto aim moves to 0 degree in your turn? Ok, the cross aim consists of let's say 10 notches and from that you calculate your shot. Moves to 90? Even easier.
Now a randomized auto aim makes it a bit harder but not really because I might not be able to notch my first shot but I can just stick my finger and do it the second time or use visual clues, or even better just select torch and from that aim notch in my very first turn rofl.

Are you preventing anyone from notching? Not at all
Are you making BnG simpler for people without much experience? No, you are adding more rules to an already hard to digest scheme.

You need to read again. :D This scheme setting has nothing to do with notching and is not an attempt to prevent notching in any way. It's just Komo talking about notching. Because notchers are allowed to notch, he thinks that he should be allowed to use his own method where he puts his thumb on the screen. This scheme setting is preventing him to do that while not affecting notchers.

Komo's method is actually questionable because it directly allows you to bypass the rule "re-aim before every shot". You can put your thumb on the screen, move crosshair 45 degrees and back exactly to the same position and then repeat your previous shot (or make slight adjustments if the previous shot was unsuccessful). Komo should be arguing for the removal of "re-aim before every shot" rule.

And no, we didn't add any rule or make things more complicated. This scheme setting means that you don't need to manually move your crosshair 45 degrees before every shot. It actually makes things simplier for new players because they don't even need to be aware of the rule (re-aim before every shot).
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 04:11 PM by Senator »

Offline lalo

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2020, 03:09 PM »
So it's just a script that automatically moves the cross aim as the rules state without the need to do anything? Lol sorry for my ignorant rant, with all the fuss I got a bit confused haha.

Offline TheKaren

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2020, 07:01 PM »
If my method, which is using my thumb as a visual que is questionable then let me ask something.

Why is it "questionable" when I use visual ques, but not when other people use them?

Why is it "impressive" and "awesome" when default type players use worm sprites and positions to judge EXACTLY where a shot will go down to the pixel, but people think it's "lame" and "questionable" when I use a visual que simply to save time from something i've already done before 100% instinctually?

And if your answer is "they are using game mechanics" then I ask this:

Why is it ok for people to mod/adjust/upgrade their hardware/software and use physical methods such as fingerrolling to gain an "advantage" in Worms, but it's "lame" and "questionable" if I do something as simple as put my thumb on the screen?

I've always said the re-aim rule is pointless, this next statement is purely opinion but I like having the re-aim rule purely because it looks better, personally I would like to remove this rule, but i'm not asking to.

My problem is players who are using math to play the scheme in a way where they know they will achieve 100% accuracy so long as they release power accurately enough, not to mention the dozens of shots you can achieve with full power, and the advantage they are gaining from this added scheme rule, and if it isn't a rule, does that mean we don't have to use it? Are you saying it's optional? Because if it's mandatory, then by definition, it is indeed an added rule.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 07:04 PM by TheKomodo »