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March 29, 2024, 04:54 AM

Author Topic: Anti-lock in BnG  (Read 9034 times)

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Offline TheKaren

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2023, 01:17 PM »
Your question is loaded. I did not say that I do not understand the problem. I managed to understand the problem on my own (before your first reply to me), although it was not without difficulty.

I don't see anyone in this thread who didn't understand what was going on, nobody said they didn't understand the issue or the points being made.

I saw some trolling and arguing, though that's to be expected in Worms Armageddon communities. :D

Perhaps you should have more faith in the intellectual abilities of other people?

Also, remember when you said to me at Discord that it's impossible to understand something "fully"? (rhetorical question) ;)

I did not say it's impossible to understand something fully.

Keep in mind our conversation is still there as evidence, what I said was:

Quote
It surprises me when you say "If you don't understand the conflict between our nations fully, please, don't try to reconcile us" because the literal truth is, absolutely nobody knows the FULL conflict.
It's impossible for anyone to know the absolute truth, even more so with all the misinformation, propaganda etc going around.

I have also said in the past that it's impossible to judge another person 100% unless you have literally experienced every moment of their life.

My intention isn't to bring a discussion about that stuff from Discord on to the TUS forums. However it's relevant when you misquote me using said discussion on Discord.

if you feel like I'm in total opposition to you (even when I'm not, I still agree with most things that you've said), let's agree to disagree...

You specifically said:

The misleading assumption and conclusion made this thread quite convoluted to follow, and due to this, it's likely that people in this thread weren't on the same page to begin with. These are important distinctions to take in mind when deciding whether to add this option to the scheme. Taking this into account, I don't see any substantial reason not to add this option to the BnG scheme, especially when some moderators and admins already felt like this is a no-brainer decision, so this explains the reason why they felt like this doesn't even deserve a discussion. I support having an open discussion in either case, mind you.

To begin with, it was not a misleading assumption. I would take your side though when you say that people in this thread weren't on the same page to begin with though due to their lack of experience and knowledge when it comes to BnG & notching, especially when combined with the Anti-Lock feature, hence why I had to explain it in the first place.

Not only did it deserve a discussion, that discussion lead to the inevitable removal of Anti-Lock from BnG due to the advantage that it gives notchers against non-notchers. Which makes it crystal clear to me that everyone DID understand what was said in the thread(at least those who need to), contrary to your wild claims here.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2023, 10:29 PM by TheKomodo »

Offline FoxHound

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Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2023, 10:32 PM »
5 pages of discussion and nobody said that Anti-lock power is not the same thing as Reaim feature or Circular Aim?

this is Anti-lock power:



And by the way there are TWO reaim features (the RubberWorm one and the new one from 3.8 ). One always reset the aim to zero degrees (useful in schemes such as Snorkel) and the other forces the aim to always reset to a random position.

Komo is probably talking about reaim feature, or maybe the RubberWorm CIRA feature (circular aim) that the aim goes beyond the 90° angle (without stopping there), since the beginning of this thread. I don't know the others.



My opinion about this is below. I didn't reply in 2020 because I had no idea what notching was. Now I know.

About reaim:

Reaim feature can benefit notchers, yes. But I think it's cool to have a feature that doesn't require rules. People created a coded feature that is interesting, why use manual rules? Ban notching and not reaim feature.

About Anti-lock power:

This feature make the shots more challenging in BnG and difficult notching. However, my experience using this feature either as TestStuff or in 3.8 is that many players hate this feature, people like to be sure that the shot will be at max power. I like this feature, but sometimes you forget about it and it can be annoying occasionally.

About Circular Aim:

This feature makes shots more challenging and might give advantage to notchers because who aims without notching doesn't have the 90° angle to help. I believe that using blowtorch to set an specific angle might help people, though. I think this feature is cool to BnG. I still think the issue is the notching thing that can be banned as a rule or simply accepted as part of the game.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2023, 10:48 PM by FoxHound »
I doubt you see this link moving below (you will have to zoom in. If you click at it, you will have maden the impossible):
'

Offline TheKaren

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2023, 10:42 PM »
Hi FoxHound, thanks for the post!

We're talking about Anti-Lock Aim, not Anti-Lock Power, apologies, we should have mentioned this.

Circular aiming was mentioned by Steps, it doesn't stop notching though as players can still use sprites and blowtorch etc to put their aim into position.

In short, the only way to prevent notching is to change the game engine in the way discussed earlier in the thread.

Offline Xrayez

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2023, 06:47 PM »
TL;DR: The reaim (anti-lock aim) feature may be beneficial for notchers because it saves them a few seconds of resetting their aim. However, this benefit is very insignificant and can be achieved without the reaim feature. There are no other benefits for notchers with this feature. Non-notchers may be disadvantaged because they rely on intuition to shoot, but this does not change the fact that all players end up resetting their previous shot either due to the reaim feature or the reaim rule anyway. Skilled instinctual players are not affected by the reaim feature, but less skilled players may be affected. However, this advantage/disadvantage is not significant, and it can be mitigated by adjusting shots with respect to the in-game sprites.



About reaim:

Reaim feature can benefit notchers, yes.

Reaim feature can only benefit notchers in a sense that this technically saves them a few seconds to reset the aim back to 90 degrees position, so we can consider this benefit to be really negligible, especially when this can be achieved without the reaim feature enabled. Other than that, there's no other intrinsic benefit behind this feature for notchers (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, namely whether you see any other intrinsic benefit for notchers specifically with the reaim feature enabled, not for any other type of players).

However, it is non-notchers specifically that can be put at disadvantage due to the fact they rely mostly on intutition to shoot, but this is a conjecture which has to be proven. Regardless of whether this feature is enabled, the reaim rule (as a game rule, not as an option) makes all players to re-aim, not adjust, which makes everyone "equal" (but not equal in relation to notching itself, of course, because notching still remains a major advantage regardless of whether the reaim feature is enabled).

Therefore, the addition of the reaim feature into the scheme changes mostly nothing for skillful instinctual players, but I also realize that this may affect those who are less skilled to do instinctual shots (those kind of shots which are based on intuition alone). Regardless of whether we consider this kind of disadvantage to be real or not, this advantage/disadvantage gap is definitely not huge, and this perceived advantage/disadvantage will be mitigated or even eliminated completely if players learn to adjust their shots with respect to the in-game sprites.

Do I have to repeat that notching itself still remains a major advantage? :D

I still think the issue is the notching thing that can be banned as a rule or simply accepted as part of the game.

And what I've described above is an insignificant problem in contrast to notching itself, that's why notching is a more serious problem in contrast to the combination of notching + reaim feature. Note, I do realize that the reaim feature is not a problem in and of itself.

In other words, the biggest flaw of the BnG scheme is still notching. But even this kind of perspective may be subjective for those who consider themselves notchers and don't see any problem with notching. ;)

But I think it's cool to have a feature that doesn't require rules. People created a coded feature that is interesting, why use manual rules? Ban notching and not reaim feature.

For rules like sitters, this can be enforced because this has a concrete metric, you can check whether a grenade is a sitter by playing back the replay file which shows the internal grenade's fuse. In contrast, notching cannot be banned, as violations of a "anti-notch" rule would be very difficult to detect with certainty.

Therefore: 
  • Those people who prefer notching will do notching, and nothing is going to stop them (notice the potential pun here). :D
  • Those people who prefer to rely on their intuition, aka instinctual players, they will have to become even more skillful to do shots while relying on intuition alone, and they will become masterful instinctual players by doing so! This is the spirit of BnG!
Given above, that's why I'd vote for enabling this feature. :)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 06:59 PM by Xrayez »

Offline TheKaren

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2023, 07:12 PM »
Skilled instinctual players are not affected by the reaim feature

Yes, they are. Don't write things that are literally incorrect. If it had no effect or didn't change anything then it wouldn't even be a feature.

I'd bet I've played more instinctual BnG than anyone in this game and I know for a fact it affects me.

Therefore, the addition of the reaim feature into the scheme changes mostly nothing for skillful instinctual players

So first of all, you said they aren't affected, now you are saying it changes "mostly nothing" which is completely different from having no affect at all.

You are literally contradicting yourself, or perhaps even more amusingly, can't even make up your own mind.

the biggest flaw of the BnG scheme is still notching

As far as I'm concerned, the only inherent flaw of BnG is notching. Everything else is subjective preference based on rules and settings.




« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 07:18 PM by TheKomodo »

Offline Xrayez

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2023, 08:22 PM »
Therefore, the addition of the reaim feature into the scheme changes mostly nothing for skillful instinctual players

So first of all, you said they aren't affected, not you are saying it changes "mostly nothing" which is completely different from having no affect at all.

You are literally contradicting yourself, or perhaps even more amusingly, can't even make up your own mind.

My two statements are:
  • Skilled instinctual players are not affected by the reaim feature, but less skilled players may be affected.
  • Therefore, the addition of the reaim feature into the scheme changes mostly nothing for skillful instinctual players, but I also realize that this may affect those who are less skilled to do instinctual shots.
The first statement is from the TL;DR version of my explanation, while the other is from the complete explanation.

My two statements are not contradictory, as they do not oppose each other. The first statement suggests that skilled players are not affected by the feature, and the second statement simply follows up by stating that adding the feature will not change much for these skilled players.

Therefore, the second statement could be classified as complementary or more elaborate version of the first one. The first statement is saying that skilled players are not affected by the feature, the second is explaining the consequence - that the addition of the feature won't change much for skilled players. The two statements are working together to provide a more complete picture of the situation.

Moreover, the fact that you're nitpicking non-existing contradictions between a TL;DR and a complete answer, this doesn't constitute a contradiction either.

Don't you think so?

P.S. Note that if you try to semantically shift the "contradiction" word itself in an attempt to win an argument or to avoid admitting that you have a misconception about it, I definitely end the discussion here. ;D

P.P.S. Please, don't tell me that I don't know English. :D

Offline TheKaren

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2023, 08:29 PM »
My two statements are:
  • Skilled instinctual players are not affected by the reaim feature, but less skilled players may be affected.
  • Therefore, the addition of the reaim feature into the scheme changes mostly nothing for skillful instinctual players, but I also realize that this may affect those who are less skilled to do instinctual shots.

Exactly.

The 1st one says skilled instinctual players are not affected by the reaim feature.
The second one says skilled instinctual players are affected by the reaim feature.

Those 2 statements directly conflict with each other, so make up your mind, they either are or aren't affected.

Even though regardless what your opinion is, the fact is that they definitely are affected. I know this at the very least based on firsthand and personal experience. Not to mention there are others who know the same as I.

Not sure what you are trying to achieve here except look like you have no idea what you're talking about.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 08:41 PM by TheKomodo »

Offline Xrayez

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2023, 08:53 PM »
The 1st one says skilled instinctual players are not affected by the reaim feature.
The second one says skilled instinctual players are affected by the reaim feature.

Looks like you followed request:
  • You haven't semantically shifted the "contradiction" word itself.
  • You haven't accused me for not knowing English.
Yet, you literally rewrote my two statements in order to misrepresent and misinterpret my argument. I'm looking at you, the strawman! :D

Not sure what you are trying to achieve here except look like you have no idea what you're talking about.

Congratulations! What a beautiful projection right here. :D

I'm done. :)

Offline TheKaren

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2023, 09:09 PM »
Yet, you literally rewrote my two statements in order to misrepresent and misinterpret my argument. I'm looking at you, the strawman! :D

My two statements are:
  • Skilled instinctual players are not affected by the reaim feature, but less skilled players may be affected.
  • Therefore, the addition of the reaim feature into the scheme changes mostly nothing for skillful instinctual players, but I also realize that this may affect those who are less skilled to do instinctual shots.

Saying that something is not affected, means it is absolutely not affected, as in unaffected, as in nothing changes, there is no difference, nothing.

Then you contradicted that by saying that "the addition of the reaim feature into the scheme changes mostly nothing for skillful instinctual players".

"mostly nothing" is not the same as "absolutely nothing", it means majority, as in there is actually a change for skillful instinctual players.

If there is even the slightest change, even 0.000000000000000000000001%, it's still different from absolutely nothing, that is still an affect!

So again, make up your mind, you either think it does have an affect, or it doesn't, regardless of how minor or major that change is that you personally believe.

I'm not misrepresenting or misinterpreting your words. If that conclusion wasn't your intention, then you need to be more careful how you word things. You made the same mistake while going on about "propaganda".



Edit:

Let me put this into further perspective for you...

You've seen "Aliens" right? Remember the famous line by Newt?

Quote from: Newt
And they mostly come at night... Mostly...

If you used your own logic while on LV-426, if you thought you were safe walking around during the day time, you'd be gravely mistaken.



« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 09:45 PM by TheKomodo »

Offline FoxHound

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Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2023, 09:55 PM »
So, my suggestion is to play BnG with notching since there's no way to forbidden it properly. I bet notchers will have trouble to notch dealing with Anti-lock power every turn.

All new features for BnG are cool, just update the scheme and play with the smallest possible number of rules. That's what I think.

People say that players who try to put rules in hysteria are dumb, but I think it's not too different from notching in BnG. It's hard/impossible to implement a rule "no telecow" efficiently in hysteria, the same way it's hard/impossible to implement the rule "no notching" efficiently in BnG.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 09:58 PM by FoxHound »
I doubt you see this link moving below (you will have to zoom in. If you click at it, you will have maden the impossible):
'

Offline TheKaren

Re: Anti-lock in BnG
« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2023, 10:01 PM »
So, my suggestion is to play BnG with notching since there's no way to forbidden it properly. I bet notchers will have trouble to notch dealing with Anti-lock power every turn.

Anti-Lock power makes it an actual challenge to shoot full power, the difficulty of course depends on the players skill.

This would at least make it more challenging for players who rely on basic notching skills to own noobs by throwing 4s full power, and full power zook shots.

However, advanced notchers will still be very successful at notching since they will also be good with 5s lg, 3s, 4s lg, floorbanks, as well as still being very good with bazooka.


People say that players who try to put rules in hysteria are dumb, but I think it's not do different for notching in BnG. It's hard/impossible to implement a rule "no telecow" efficiently in hysteria, the same way it's hard/impossible to implement the rule "no notching" efficiently in BnG.

I don't think it's dumb for people to put their own house rules in Hysteria, I do think it's dumb to yell "TELECOW!" in a TUS Hysteria because "cow" means to break the rules, and in TUS Hysteria there are no rules.

Also, implementing a rule "no telecow" is straight forward and simple because a telecow is when you pile with teleport. It's obvious when someone does it.

It's impossible to implement a rule for notching effectively because you have no evidence when people are notching.