Tourneys/Cups - reported game canceled due to scheme problem noticed later?

[Albus]

I'm going to talk about a fact that happened to me at the inter80 cup (https://www.tus-wa.com/cups/cup-1123/?start=0#top).

My first cup game was against Mega'Adnan. Were present inside the match: Komito (he was the host and transmitted the game on twitch) and VoK (spectator inside the game). I won this game by 2x0. Some time after the game was reported, on the same day, that happened:



As the print shows, everything was decided unilaterally and very quickly. At the moment, I didn't question the moderator's decision and me and Mega’Adnan played the game again. In that second moment I lost by 2x1.

However, after reflecting better on what happened, and talking to some friends, I came to the conclusion that the decision was disproportionate, and that it was not fair because, due to the frustration it caused me (for a mistake I did not cause and that nobody noticed, including the moderators Komito and Dario - https://imgur.com/a/LPte7aS), my performance was impaired for the second match. In this sense, I would like to post here ZorroX's comment:

If I am allowed, I just want to shed some light on 3 things.

1. You always put all your heart into the 1st match. Upon hearing that it's been all in vain, you will never play the 2nd round as good. Moreover, the person whose loss was spared instantly gains an immense boost in morale (just like Uruguay that won against Ghana in penalty shootout in 2010 after Ghana's goal was stopped by hands). So the argument that Adnan did "some great moves there" isn't fair in my opinion.

One example is drawing. I used to draw a lot. I would spend 10 hours of one bigger project. I would just be utterly demotivated to do the same as good again if it was destroyed. We all lost an essay that we spent a night on, you know this feeling.

2. One person said that Albus "agreed" to play rematch so he should be fine with it. Please show me a football player who was informed that his successful penalty was invalid, he must repeat is, and the footballer refused to do so... Nobody will refuse in a heat of a moment.

3. Komito, my friend, everybody knows you are a fantastic mod and that you have good intentions. No authority is needed here. You already earned everybody's respect. Winning is not accidental. The one who is better will win if you let them fight on a separate day, 4 days from now so that they can appear there both given 2nd chance for their morale to be the same. I think you know what's a right to do. I have damaged the good spirit of my own 2vs2 cup by my mistake, so I don't want the same to happen to this cup.

Heads up. We are all human beings. All good

The opinion of the moderators must be respected (as long as it is not a complete absurdity). What I didn't agree with was how the decision was made (unilaterally and very quickly). In my opinion, any decision that affects the player, that may frustrate him and that has the potential to divide opinions, must be preceded by the manifestation of the players (especially those affected by the decision). Mega'Adnan, for example, didn't bother with what happened:



My opinion, which was not asked before, and the solution for such cases would be as follows:

1) in case of a error in the scheme caused by the player, which no one notice during the entire game, it cannot be canceled at his request. The purpose of this is to avoid intentional changes that can go unnoticed, with the aim of canceling the game later if he loses.

2) in case the host was a third person and he is responsible for the error, as happened to me in this case, two solutions would be interesting:

2.1) both players would have to accept the consequences, as they both accepted that person as their host. This solution can be interesting to avoid the following scenario: the host, being a friend of one of the players, selects the scheme with a specific error, which can go unnoticed, and later a third person asks to cancel the game if the host's friend loses the game.

2.2) the willingness of the players involved, whether they want to keep the game or not, is questioned.


So here are my final considerations:

I apologize if the debate I created over the days appeared that I didn't respect your decision. However, I do suggest that any decision, without exception, which has the potential to generate diverse opinions, and which negatively affects a player, be given the opportunity for the parties to express themselves prior to the decision. This prevents future problems.

[Korydex]

Closest point in TUS League rules:

[TheKomodo]

I've discussed this issue at great length with Albus in private and advised that he make a public post so others can discuss as well. I've spoke with Dario and he agrees with the decision made.

This is a Cup, not a League. This is a very important difference.

Also, for now, we will stick with TUS as what happens on TUS has absolutely nothing to do with ONL or CWT.

To begin with, this website does not have a set of static rules for Cups & Tournaments, as those are decided by the Cup & Tournament moderators and creators. Whatever the moderators decide as the rules, scheme settings etc, those who sign up must agree and must be informed.

Leagues can possibly be more lenient as their entire structure and ranking system is completely different from Cups & Tournaments, it's up to each individual League owners & moderators to make decisions there.

In Leagues, you can play as often or as little as you like, you can play individual schemes only or all schemes, you can play with your friends only by organizing games in private or ask publicly. While there are rules for avoiding, nobody cares about for example VoK and Xrayez playing each other while Xrayez doesn't play anyone else, it's more playing competitive games with a friend than avoiding others. This applies to everyone, you also mix and match different schemes which all move forward with the primary objective of reaching the Playoffs.

In a Cup, it is a much stricter environment(Speaking for TUS only), there are deadlines, a set scheme with set rules, you must play every opponent in your group, everyone must be under the same variables for each game. I actually believe Leagues should be treated the same by the way, my previous point is just to show how much of a difference there is in the effect.

I've apologized to Albus for my mistake, while he keeps saying it's the players responsibility to notice the setup as well, though the biggest blame is mine. I am not only the host, but one of the Cup moderators as well, and I was streaming live as well.

I feel terrible about what happened, it's embarassing to make such a simple mistake like this for an event i'm trying to showcase as having a professional environment.


Now let's look at WHY I made this decision.

This decision, I believe, is the fairest decision to make and is in the best interest of everyone participating in the Cup. Nobody gets special treatment, everyone will be treated equally.

This Cup, as already stated has a much stricter environment, if I allow 1 game with 7 worms, i'd have to allow 1 game with 90hp worms, or 1 game with 40s turntime, or 1 game with no dyna/sheep delay, or 1 game with 6 worms...

To do this, absolutely destroys the competitive integrity and equality for ALL participants.

This is the first time this has ever happened to me in a Cup, I will not allow it to happen again, i'm putting my foot down immediately and making a statement that this is how all future Cups I host will be treated, and will make sure to write up a rule about it in future so that everybody is clear and feels equal and knows what to expect.


One thing i'd like to note, while chatting with Albus, he made a comparison to football. Just in case anyone tries to use the same example i'd like to counter that right now.

"In a football game, it's common to see goals scored wrongly (the ball didn't enter, etc.), and even then the game is respected."

So, as I explained to Albus, things that happen during a game which started with the correct equipment and number of players and a game actually starting with incorrect equipment/number of players are completely different.

For example, in professional sports it's highly likely this same situation would never happen as they have hundreds of paid professionals making sure everything is within regulation and setup correctly before a match begins.

Football is not the same:

They wouldn't start a match with any more or any less than 11 players.
They wouldn't start with a different size football.
They wouldn't start on a different size of pitch.
They wouldn't start with a different size of goals.

For us, we had 3 people, myself, Albus and Mega`Adnan, a much lesser chance of catching that very small visual difference of 7 worms instead of 8 worms.

When things happen DURING a football game, they have rules for that, when things happen DURING a Worms Armageddon League match, we have rules for that.

For Roper/WxW if a player cows they usually skip their next turn or don't attack.

For BnG(depending which league) players will skip turn, deal self-damage, or simply subtract the damage they dealt from their own worm so the game ends when they surpass that number.

For 80hp, we have the rule about special weapons, there are no other rules, players can do whatever they want as the scheme itself deals with glitches.


Albus complained originally that it isn't about winning/losing, it's the fact he had to actually play the game again, that it's very frustrating to replay a game after it is finished and reported.

I agree that it's frustrating, just like it's frustrating the thousands of matches in WA history had to be restarted because of a drop and you lose the advantage you had, only to play the next game and it's your opponent/s who have the advantage, you feel somehow cheated.

Our clan, db, had just finished playing some Clanners against TdC, we were up 3-1 and TdC asked for 2 more games, we all really wanted to play those games. Clanners are by far my most favourite thing to do ever in the history of my time spent on this game, and it's such a rare opportunity to find good Clanners these days.

However I dropped absolutely everything to sort this situation and rehost for you guys to play the game with the correct scheme setup and stream it, I did not think even for a second about my own desires.

My entire focus was on doing what was right for the Cup and for all participants, because as i've already described above, Leagues are more flexible than Cups, we can technically play Clanners whenever we want and theoretically for many years, this Cup with these exact players at this exact time is a once in a lifetime event.

If I allow Albus to keep a win that wasn't actually won with the proper scheme, which is essentially a fake/false game, and proceed, hypothetically speaking someone else in a future game might make an even bigger issue out of that during Knockouts because he advanced unfairly.


Last but not least.

While i've expressed my feelings, my reasoning and my future plans for how I manage Cups that i'm a moderator of, i've also told Albus that if enough people want things done the way he wants, i'm quite happy to cater to what the vast majority of players demand.

However, as i've already expressed, if you start to allow these kinds of mistakes, you are opening the flood gates for all kinds of trouble.

[Albus]

Komito, I would like to hear your opinion for some specific cases.

1) in our case, you were the host. But what if the looser was the host? An error in the scheme settings can be invoked by the loser when he was the creator of the room?

2) a scheme error that didn't benefit anyone can nullify a game?

[TheKomodo]

Komito, I would like to hear your opinion for some specific cases.

1) an error in the scheme settings can be invoked by the loser when he was the creator of the room?

2) a scheme error that didn't benefit anyone can nullify a game?

Those are not specific enough, they are vague. You need to elaborate on the conditions and context.

[Albus]

Komito, I would like to hear your opinion for some specific cases.

1) an error in the scheme settings can be invoked by the loser when he was the creator of the room?

2) a scheme error that didn't benefit anyone can nullify a game?

Those are not specific enough, they are vague. You need to elaborate on the conditions and context.

Example of the first case: let's say I'm the host in my next game in the inter80 cup against Rafka. Let's suppose I have selected the scheme with a mistake, eg wrong SD time. Rafka won (without notice the mistake) and I lost. Could I intend to cancel this game because of my own mistake?

[TheKomodo]

Regarding the 80hp Cup only.

If it was entirely my choice to make:

Any alterations to the scheme will result in any reported games being voided and the players having to play again, if caught of course, as if we don't know something, we cannot act on it.

Nobody gets special treatment, this is non-negotiable, everyone is treated equally.

So, for future reference, any hypothetical scenario you ask, will have the same answer from me.

The problem, from my perspective, is if we begin to relax on rules and allow mistakes or alterations no matter how small or ineffective, over time we can become too lenient and it would destroy the integrity of competition.


Though, keep in mind, I am not the only moderator of this Cup. Dario invented the scheme, and from his standpoint it isn't 100% confirmed to be finished yet, even though it has been a major success someone could discover an issue with the scheme and some tweaks could be made.

Dario may wish to be more lenient in certain situations and i'd respect that, though we have discussed this specific scenario and Dario agrees about this specific situation:



Even with all this being said, this is not OUR website, MonkeyIsland could jump in at any moment and overrule any decision we've made, although I don't think that would happen in this specific case, it IS his website so whatever he says, is final word, and to be quite honest I trust his judgement as he's earned that with how well he's managed this website.


Edit:

Also, remember, that is how i'd handle my Cups, you can make your own Cup and allow games if you wish with mistakes via wrong scheme/worms, and others can do whatever they want as well, this only applies to the 80hp Cup.

[Albus]

Any alterations to the scheme will result in any reported games being voided and the players having to play again, if caught of course, as if we don't know something, we cannot act on it.

This rule can be used by players with bad faith, eg, the host makes a deliberate change to the scheme settings, and if he lose, a third person (some of his friend for example) mentions the error in the scheme with the intetion of the game being voided and the loser get more 1 chance. If he wins, he doesn't say anything, as these errors are not always noticed by moderators.

[TheKomodo]

Any alterations to the scheme will result in any reported games being voided and the players having to play again, if caught of course, as if we don't know something, we cannot act on it.

This rule can be used by players with bad faith, eg, the host makes a deliberate change to the scheme settings, and if he lose, a third person (some of his friend for example) mentions the error in the scheme with the intetion of the game being being voided and the loser get more 1 chance. If he wins, he doesn't say anything, as these errors are not always noticed by moderators.

Yes, it has the potential to be abused, as does not having that rule have the potential to be abused.

Generally speaking, every League that exists can be abused, players can pull their connection to drop from games, they can avoid certain players, and various other methods.

Trust and respect goes a long way in this community, just as we trust players not to watch the streams while playing their matches, we trust players not to use selfish techniques to gain an advantage or protect themselves from a potential loss.

Speaking about 80hp Cup specifically - Anyone caught abusing any system in any way will be punished, anyone caught abusing these rules will be banned from the event without hesitation and likely banned from any future events.

It is also fair to say this applies to pretty much all Leagues and events, anyone caught abusing systems will be punished.

For examples, you saw what happened when someone reported 15 wins in a row at the very end of a Season on TUS recently, and how that was dealt with.

[Kaleu]

Prove to us that this wasn't just an aesthetic decision Komito. Obviously no one benefited from this little mistake.

[zuck]

Host games yourself if you don't wanna get zucked like that.

[TheKomodo]

Prove to us that this wasn't just an aesthetic decision Komito. Obviously no one benefited from this little mistake.

Did you read everything I posted about this? I spent a while explaining everything.

Also, what does aesthetics have to do with it?

[h3oCharles]

wdym aesthetics?

btw, almost nobody checks the exact scheme options to the dot ever, how could Albus possibly spot that something was wrong?

[TheKomodo]

btw, almost nobody checks the exact scheme options to the dot ever, how could Albus possibly spot that something was wrong?

By looking, the same goes to myself and Mega`Adnan.

We are all to blame, though I hold myself responsible more than the others.

[Albus]

Host games yourself if you don't wanna get zucked like that.

This is a bit complicated, as in tournaments people tend to prefer a third person to host the game, in order to have impartiality in the choice of the map.
EDIT: from now on I decided to follow your advice.