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October 22, 2017, 06:40 AM

Author Topic: Crates and weapons delay  (Read 3210 times)

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Offline Sensei

Re: Crates and weapons delay
« Reply #60 on: October 09, 2017, 10:47 PM »
Atm, WormNAT2 fix is much more needed than new W:A update, imho.
I think lot of occasional players left because Hosting Buddy was lagging crazy for a few weeks.

And most of the league players were using WormNAT2 module, but unfortunately, it still isn't fixed as I've heard yesterday.

It's not the main reason W:A isn't played like before, but it definitely had some role with ppl giving up.



"Much like the Matrix series,                 
the only worthwhile installation               
was released in 1999. and the ones         
called Reloaded and Revolutions              
are titles to stay away from."

Offline skunk3

Re: Crates and weapons delay
« Reply #61 on: October 10, 2017, 12:17 AM »
4.0 isnt done vince, dunno where you got that idea

Judging by the posts in this thread, elsewhere, and also hearsay, I came to the assumption that 4.0 was already complete but for whatever reason, we'd have to make do with 3.8 being released until a couple more things were ironed out.

Read DC's post on page 3. Maybe he was referencing 3.8 specifically, but there's other posts going back YEARS that kinda hint to the fact that 4.0 is complete, unless I was entirely missing something. Anyhow, it's good to be corrected and know what is going on. Personally, I am more than fine with 3.8 rolling out and hoping/waiting for 4.0 to come later as it has been SO LONG since any sort of an update has been released for this game. @DeadCode - if instead of 4.0 you were referencing 3.8 in your post near the bottom of page 8, then the same question applies - if "almost everyone" agrees that it should have been released long ago (and therefore, presumably finished) then why hasn't it been released yet?

I also agree with Sensei in that WormNAT2 needs to be fixed for sure.

All I can say is that I hope that updates continue to come for years... no other game has ever drawn me in like W:A and if I had the know-how I'd work feverishly towards making this game as awesome as possible.

 

Offline Deadcode

Re: Crates and weapons delay
« Reply #62 on: October 10, 2017, 03:42 AM »
Read DC's post on page 3
if instead of 4.0 you were referencing 3.8 in your post near the bottom of page 8

Could you please link to posts by URL instead of referencing them in this way? The forum software lets you set 5, 10, 15, 25, or 50 posts per page, and this is a per-user setting. With >=10 posts/page there isn't even a page 8. With 5 posts/page there's no post by me near the bottom of page 8. So I don't know what posts you were referring to...

if "almost everyone" agrees that it should have been released long ago (and therefore, presumably finished) then why hasn't it been released yet?

I'm sorry, I can't be specific. Basically, I feel it would hurt the long-term future of the game to release it at this point, with certain features unfinished. But whether or not I manage to finish these things, you will be getting a release by the end of the year.

After releasing 3.8, I want to go back to a much more frequent release schedule, like it used to be before 3.6.28.0.

Offline skunk3

Re: Crates and weapons delay
« Reply #63 on: October 10, 2017, 08:31 AM »
Read DC's post on page 3
if instead of 4.0 you were referencing 3.8 in your post near the bottom of page 8

Could you please link to posts by URL instead of referencing them in this way? The forum software lets you set 5, 10, 15, 25, or 50 posts per page, and this is a per-user setting. With >=10 posts/page there isn't even a page 8. With 5 posts/page there's no post by me near the bottom of page 8. So I don't know what posts you were referring to...

if "almost everyone" agrees that it should have been released long ago (and therefore, presumably finished) then why hasn't it been released yet?

I'm sorry, I can't be specific. Basically, I feel it would hurt the long-term future of the game to release it at this point, with certain features unfinished. But whether or not I manage to finish these things, you will be getting a release by the end of the year.

After releasing 3.8, I want to go back to a much more frequent release schedule, like it used to be before 3.6.28.0.

My fault... it was CyberShadow who said something in this thread, and I misread/misinterpreted it to boot. I have, however, read things elsewhere that led me to believe that 4.0 was basically finished and for whatever mysterious reason, it wasn't being released. I couldn't even begin to remember where I read that though. At this point it could just be my imagination playing tricks on me because it's probably been years.

I definitely don't want anything to be released that is buggy or would otherwise hamper the gameplay we all enjoy. I am really psyched to see what this update entails, and hearing about a more regular update schedule afterwards is sweet too.

Last thing (for now) - and I am not trying to be an ass here - but what's with all the secrecy and hush-hush? This is a very niche game that is positively ancient by online multiplayer standards, and most of the people who frequent these forums are people who have played the game and been a part of the community for many years. I understand not wanting to NOT deliver on stated goals and/or promises, but aside from that I don't really get why everything shouldn't be completely transparent at this point. Hell, this game is rapidly approaching a 20-year anniversary! I just find it kinda irksome that there's a select few that seem to get all of this insider information while the rest of us just sit in the dark and hope for some morsel of information gets pitched our way.

Speaking of that, Team17 has had the absolute worst customer relations / community management / communication lately. This is unrelated, but they gave WMD players a 'roadmap' of planned (and sorely-needed) additions to the game back in January and as of today like 80% of the planned updates have yet to see the light of day, and on top of that, Team17 is basically refusing to speak about it whatsoever. Anyway... that's another topic entirely. I just wanted to complain.

 

Re: Crates and weapons delay
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2017, 04:15 PM »
Speaking of that, Team17 has had the absolute worst customer relations / community management / communication lately. This is unrelated, but they gave WMD players a 'roadmap' of planned (and sorely-needed) additions to the game back in January and as of today like 80% of the planned updates have yet to see the light of day, and on top of that, Team17 is basically refusing to speak about it whatsoever. Anyway... that's another topic entirely. I just wanted to complain.

That right there is a great reason not to overpromise and underdeliver, wouldn't you agree? It just leaves your reputation as a game dev/maintainer in a worse place each time a deadline passes, and harms the game itself as well, leaving its community less excited and interested than it was to begin with. Even so, I think Deadcode and CyberShadow are reasonably willing to discuss the general plans for WA's future with anyone who contacts them about it. They just don't want to talk about specific features, I imagine primarily because it would ruin the surprise on patch day, but also because while things are still being worked on and tested, they just can't know that they won't hit a roadblock that'll mean a specific feature might get delayed for an update or two.

Offline skunk3

Re: Crates and weapons delay
« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2017, 05:07 AM »
Speaking of that, Team17 has had the absolute worst customer relations / community management / communication lately. This is unrelated, but they gave WMD players a 'roadmap' of planned (and sorely-needed) additions to the game back in January and as of today like 80% of the planned updates have yet to see the light of day, and on top of that, Team17 is basically refusing to speak about it whatsoever. Anyway... that's another topic entirely. I just wanted to complain.

That right there is a great reason not to overpromise and underdeliver, wouldn't you agree? It just leaves your reputation as a game dev/maintainer in a worse place each time a deadline passes, and harms the game itself as well, leaving its community less excited and interested than it was to begin with. Even so, I think Deadcode and CyberShadow are reasonably willing to discuss the general plans for WA's future with anyone who contacts them about it. They just don't want to talk about specific features, I imagine primarily because it would ruin the surprise on patch day, but also because while things are still being worked on and tested, they just can't know that they won't hit a roadblock that'll mean a specific feature might get delayed for an update or two.

I don't even feel like they overpromised all that much. A lot of the stuff they planned to fix or add is small things that should be easily doable.

The problem with Team17 (as far as I can surmise) is that they stretch themselves too thin and are too ambitious. They obviously want to make money, so they are constantly developing and/or publishing games, and once a new game is released it gets maybe a couple months of support and after that they kinda stop trying because they are working on the next stuff coming out. They are porting WMD to the Nintendo Switch right now, which is probably one of the main reasons as to why they haven't really accomplished much else. What bugs me the most is the lack of communication though. The community managers were all over the Steam forums around the time WMD launched last August, but as time went on they basically disappeared. Jonno pops in and makes a vague statement every now and again but for several months there wasn't any sort of sign whatsoever.

Right now I know that they are planning on releasing a building editor as well as a hat editor, which is cool and all but there's so many other things that need to be addressed first, things that are far more important IMO. I couldn't care less about being able to wear custom hats when we have basic problems, like not being able to make custom schemes with all of the weapons in the game. That is just one of many serious oversights that exist within WMD. I am super frustrated with the situation because, as I have said before, WMD could be AWESOME if they just put some more work into it. All the makings of a good Worms game are there, but as per usual Team17 made some bonehead decisions along the way. The game didn't even launch with a global multiplayer chat, for fuck's sake! All we had was a list of hosted games. Months later they finally added a chat, but it is nothing like WormNET and most people don't even use it.

I don't want to sound arrogant or entitled in any way, but I hope that in the future they actually reach out to people like me who have a lot of experience with the various Worms titles and know them inside and out and pick my brain for what I consider to be the best aspects of Worms. Why do they implement a cool weapon, utility, or game mechanic and then fail to include it in a future game? It drives me nuts! The dynamic water and worm class system in Revolution + Clan Wars was actually really awesome and it is a shame that they didn't make a comeback in WMD... and instead we get crafting (which I hate) and vehicles - which I am not a fan of, but hate much less than crafting. The buildings are a nice new feature though.

Numerous people have pleaded with Team17 to update the roadmap or give us any sign as to what is going on, but all we have heard in months is that we will likely be getting a couple new terrain themes, and building + hat editors are going to be coming soon-ish. If they had stuck to the roadmap we would have all of that stuff and lots more already. *sigh*



Offline j0e

Re: Crates and weapons delay
« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2017, 01:38 PM »
Quote from: Deadcode
I'm sorry, I can't be specific. Basically, I feel it would hurt the long-term future of the game to release it at this point, with certain features unfinished. But whether or not I manage to finish these things, you will be getting a release by the end of the year.

After releasing 3.8, I want to go back to a much more frequent release schedule, like it used to be before 3.6.28.0.

Wonderful news Deadcode.

Regarding roadmaps and expectations, etc, I'd like to link this old team17 forum thread here to remind everyone that 4.0 as originally envisioned wasn't all that ambitious, compared to what it has become. It wasn't an impossibly daunting task. I had forgotten how simple it was supposed to be. All it consisted of was a new scheme format (based on replay files) allowing fiddler-like game options. Back when that forum post was made, it sounded like there was a clearly-defined path to achieving that scheme format. Reading the plans in that old thread vs the 4.0 feature idea/dump list is a day and night difference. The first thread inspires and excites me and sounds possible. Deadcode himself sounds excited and inspired. On the other hand I get demotivated about 2 seconds into reading the 4.0 dump list, which is basically a call to re-program the entire game from scratch. Plus all kinds of extra shit like ranks, real-time, live map editing. It is way too ambitious. And you can't really release small iterative updates when you're rewriting the whole game because nothing works until it's done. Therefore we haven't had updates in a long time, which you say is demotivating, and is something that as a chronic procrastinator myself I completely understand.

Please humour my SpaceX analogies here for a second. The ITS was announced in 2016. It was the 42-engine rocket that was going to take hundreds of people and hundreds of tonnes of cargo to Mars in a very short timeframe. It was by far the largest rocket anyone had ever planned or built. It had tons of groundbreaking tech planned for it such as the most powerful engine with most aggressive design (highest temps, pressures, etc) ever, instant reusability without refurbishment, legless landing right back into the launch mounts, and a huge massively-pressurized spherical liquid oxygen carbon fibre fuel tank, even though CF is porous and is eroded by LOX. Everyone was hugely inspired, but when engineers looked at the plans in detail they laughed. It was concluded by everyone that the budget, timeline, and features would have to be drastically changed. So this year, SpaceX announced their scaled down version, the BFR, which is 25% smaller, resulting in a ~50% payload loss. It keeps most of the original features but now sounds a lot more feasible, and this time is actually economically viable. By the time it's ready, further compromises, such as the legless landing, will probably have had to be made. But it will still fulfill its end goal of facilitating human colonization of Mars.

Elon Musk looks no weaker for making these concessions - in fact he seems more pragmatic and credible. His greatest skill is arguably his ability to have insane inspiring vision, but not to get married to his ideas. He is always able to revise or cancel plans that are impractical, without succumbing to the sunk-cost fallacy. Elon's philosophy equates to "shoot for the moon and (if there are setbacks) you'll land on the stars" which is directly opposed to the other common piece of wisdom "under-promise and over-deliver". And the opposite of that, what critics might stupidly say about Musk or DC+CS, "over-promising and under-delivering", isn't always a bad thing. It's just a common phrase that in English unfortunately carries negative connotations. I hope you can see why, even though I haven't explained my thoughts well, in cases like with WA and SpaceX, that second phrase is bullshit. The ends justify the means, or something vaguely like that. I'm not making this comparison in order to imply you made any promises.

Anyway, if major work hasn't started on 4.0 yet, I'd suggest ditching that god-awful plan/idea dump roadmap and just add what you can via simple hacks. Keep it simple. Nobody cares that much if the underlying code is beautiful or whether certain aspects are open-sourced, free-range or organic. You can see that with PX - the code sucks, it runs like shit, buggy as hell, but people still love it, because it allows new possibilities for an aging game. Certain things may never be possible, for example being able to resume from replays -- that's ok -- it was not even part of the original 4.0 plans. I obviously don't know what would or wouldn't be possible without rewriting things. However I remember a big argument against making hackish interim features is they would become redundant when code was rewritten.

I have zero doubt that you guys, Deadcode and Cybershadow, would have the talent to do everything in that list. I know for a fact Deadcode has a genius-level understanding of the WA code. We've all seen his long-winded explanations where he explains things down to 1/65536 of a pixel, and his replays where he flies sheeps through a 99.999% solid map or has moles doing unspeakable things. Then there's Silkworm, which you didn't even have the source code for, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Then with Cybershadow (whose work I'm less familiar with) HostingBuddy and WormNAT2 are the best things to happen to this game in many many years, and most likely the only reason it's still alive. But I also think that unless you remortgaged your houses and did this as full-time jobs, WA would already be dead by the time all that code was rewritten.

The simple passage of time itself is very demotivating. It creates a self-reinforcing cycle. Fundamentally you seemed demotivated because it has taken so long, and it has taken so long because you were demotivated. Without frequent updates, you lose the frequent motivation to continue. So I think returning to a more rapid release schedule is the best news I've heard about WA in years. It sounds like you guys are on the right track and I'm super excited for 3.8. Keep up the great work.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 08:25 PM by j0e »