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April 25, 2024, 01:29 PM

Author Topic: elite vs intermediate  (Read 8784 times)

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Offline Random00

Re: elite vs intermediate
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2010, 03:30 PM »
ropa wins this discussion ^^

Re: elite vs intermediate
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2010, 12:22 AM »
I see one viable option and it is for them both to count as the same rating, as in being the same class as far as the league logistics are concerned. So, you can choose to play intermediate or Elite in your pick and when you report you use the same scheme for both.

Thats the worst idea ive read in a long time. Inter and elite counting as the same scheme, surely you can see that that isnt viable and makes no sense.

As you said yourself the two schemes, whilst requiring the same basic default skills, revolve around entirely different gameplay and tactics. Twice the worms, twice the time, more utilities, more cows, come now...
worm and learn

Re: elite vs intermediate
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2010, 12:25 AM »
ropa wins this discussion ^^

Im sorry?

So you agree with what he said?

So next time we tus ill pick an inter and report it as an elite?

You agree that thats a good idea? Of course you dont... -.-

Whats with all this oldschool ass licking, even when people post complete rubbish.
worm and learn

Offline Aerox

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Re: elite vs intermediate
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2010, 07:53 AM »
So you've called my porposition the "worst idea you've ever heard" and on top of it said I posted "rubbish" yet you didn't reason any of your arguments, well, way to go I suppose...
MonkeyIsland, my friend, I know your english is terrible and your understanding of society limited. However, in real life, people attack and humiliate others without the use of a single bad word. They even go to war with lengthy politeness. You can't base the whole moderation philosophy of a community based on the use of bad words and your struggle with sarcasm and irony. My attack to Jonno was fully justified and of proper good taste.
Eat a bag full of dicks.

Offline Free

Re: elite vs intermediate
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2010, 10:11 AM »
Ropa reminds me of Ari from Entourage. :D

Offline Aerox

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Re: elite vs intermediate
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2010, 10:28 AM »

Ropa reminds me of Ari from Entourage. :D



Hey NAiL



oh and


« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 10:35 AM by ropa »
MonkeyIsland, my friend, I know your english is terrible and your understanding of society limited. However, in real life, people attack and humiliate others without the use of a single bad word. They even go to war with lengthy politeness. You can't base the whole moderation philosophy of a community based on the use of bad words and your struggle with sarcasm and irony. My attack to Jonno was fully justified and of proper good taste.
Eat a bag full of dicks.

Offline pr

Re: elite vs intermediate
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2010, 10:35 AM »
i dont rly like SD intermediate cus it's lucky shit xP

yayaya use TNL scheme!

Offline Random00

Re: elite vs intermediate
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2010, 01:32 PM »
ropa wins this discussion ^^

Im sorry?

So you agree with what he said?

no, I meant his second post in this thread:
There's not more skill involved. That's a myth, a dilusion if you must. What's happening here is what has happened with every scheme ever. At first there's only a couple of specialists in said scheme, and thus the difference in skill with the rest of the world is wider. When the scheme and if the scheme becomes more popular the gap will close and it will be just like every other scheme.

Offline Husk

Re: elite vs intermediate
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2010, 02:51 AM »
xDDDD ololololo

Offline beer

Re: elite vs intermediate
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2010, 03:39 AM »
husk^!!


drama queen iz back

Offline darKz

Re: elite vs intermediate
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2010, 11:57 AM »
Yes, best example is DOPE and MPH. They were a super strong Elite team a few years ago, but that was only because all the other clans were shit at Elite. Everyone who's reasonably good at Elite, watch some old replays, they're really nothing special (nowadays).

So give Intermediate a bit more time and more players and you'll see how the gap closes just as ropa suggested. Because I don't think there's "more" skill involved either, it's just a different scheme which requires different thinking which people aren't used to (yet).

Confusing post, sorry. xD
I remember knowing who it was but dont remember exactly what I knew
~ Dubc 2010

Re: elite vs intermediate
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2010, 12:17 PM »
It's not like there needs to be any competition between schemes, but I do wish some regular league people would play intermediate more. Here's my two cents (and my only intention would be to get people more interested in inter):

As someone who's played both elite and intermediate for years, I think the skill cap for intermediate is noticeably higher. I believe the reason for this is largely due to the huge variety of situations you come across in inter, as lacoste mentioned, which come into play due to random placement, the extra worm count, the ability to rope knock, and the addition of jetpack, low gravity, and select worm. With so many worms in play, kill-spotting becomes something of an art, and it becomes crucial to use all of your opponent's turn time as well as some of your own to determine an optimal kill. Moreover, the number of kills is only half of the equation in executing an ideal turn, since you have to determine the most efficient use of your utilities.

And conservation of utilities in elite is really only a microcosm of conservation in inter. In elite you generally just have to consider your two ropes and SS, and it's fairly easy to determine how many of those utilities you need to hold onto in order to win or potentially win, and considering you'll usually need at least one such utility for SD, there aren't many combinations of rope / SS usage open to you (not that it isn't hard to determine when to use those one or two utilities). In inter, conservation of utilities also becomes a major skill, requiring you to continually attempt to make your opponent waste resources / avoid worm combinations that sap you of your own resources.

Probably due to the sheer number of combinations of jetpacks / ropes / worm selects you can have, there are many opportunities for efficient and inefficient uses of utilities within a single game; it becomes necessary to consistently make wise decisions in resource allocation. There's also quite a bit of fun in the heuristics of utility conservation, based on their own previous game experiences people develop wildly different styles, and there are simply too many options to ever say for certain whether a certain rope usage was ideal; just rarely any situations where you're clearly forced to use any given utility.

Worm selects constitute another big skill that you don't deal with in elite, and they take a lot of time to learn. It's certainly another heuristic factor that takes hundreds of games to get a handle on, simply because you can only see certain aspects of what will happen more than a few turns ahead, yet you need to prepare for the worst case scenarios and use select worm to find efficient worm orders for the next several turns accordingly, hopefully staying one step ahead of those scenarios. You'll constantly find yourself having to plan important aspects of the next two, three, and often more turns since you have some freedom in worm order, while in elite you will often be bogged down in BnG, or in situations where the same few worms will be forced to perform roughly the same actions each turn and there's no need or desire for any particularly creative planning.

Aside from big skills, intermediate tends to have way more opportunities to test your knowledge of the game and practice little skills, e.g. rope knocking in general, hitting 2 worms with one bow, knowing mine / bat distances, mine drops, grenade / HHG drops, cow skills, knowing when SD will come, knowing when a worm will slide forward or bounce back from the ground or ceiling, etc. And while elite does require 'motor skills' like BnG and SSing, inter requires pretty brutal precision with most all weapons, in both LG and non-LG modes.

In short, I find intermediate to be more strategic and complex, mainly because it requires several large skill sets that are not so prominent in elite. Though this has little to do with one scheme being better than the other, since fun is a big factor. I've just been having more fun with inter because it always seems I can get better, and there are always interesting situations that require creative thinking. I disagree with ropa and dark though, intermediate has progressed a lot in the past 4+ years almost entirely outside any regular leagues, and there are quite a few specialists, so this 'gap' isn't going to close much more than it already has.

Offline Maciej

Re: elite vs intermediate
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2010, 12:56 PM »
ELITE>inter
inetrmediate sucks, just for noobs
all

Offline darKz

Re: elite vs intermediate
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2010, 01:09 PM »
Great post Mablu, there's a lot of truth in your words.
I still think that the gap can be closed like it's been done in Elite. Lots of guys (like myself and most of CF) haven't really started playing Intermediate yet, so there *may* still be great talents who haven't yet discovered the scheme for themselves. :)
Also, like in every other scheme, it's a matter of practice and experience to be good at a scheme.
I remember knowing who it was but dont remember exactly what I knew
~ Dubc 2010

Re: elite vs intermediate
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2010, 02:18 PM »
Great post Mablak. I completely agree with you.
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