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March 29, 2024, 12:35 AM

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Should they release Worms Armageddon v3.8 on Dec. 31st. even if it's unfinished?

Yes. ("even if it hurts the game" or "I don't believe Deadcode, it won't hurt the game to release it now")
16 (38.1%)
No. ("release it when the maintainers believe it won't hurt the game" or "release it at a future date when I don't believe it will hurt the game")
26 (61.9%)

Total Members Voted: 42

Voting closed: February 27, 2018, 01:49 AM

Author Topic: Should they release Worms Armageddon v3.8 on Dec. 31st. even if it's unfinished?  (Read 21017 times)

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Offline skunk3

I can only assume that Deadcode has given the 3.8 patch to Team17 and they have to verify some shit or whatever and make sure it's all good before "officially" releasing it. Not that Team17 has had anything to do with W:A in many years aside from re-releasing it on Steam to make a little money.

I do care about updates and patches and whatnot. W:A is my favorite game of all time and the Worms franchise is my favorite game franchise of all time. Nothing else really even comes close except maybe The Elder Scrolls, but that's a distant second. I know that this game is really old at this point and expecting updates is foolish, but that doesn't change the fact that I'd like to see them regardless. Ideally I would like to see continuous updates forever but Team17 certainly isn't going to invest any effort into that (they barely give a shit about their new games) and clearly CyberShadow hasn't done much of anything in years because of whatever reason(s). [edit: this is not true](Assuming he fundamentally disagrees with DC on many issues and has basically stopped trying.)

That basically leaves things up to Deadcode and perhaps a handful of other community members to improve the game, and they aren't getting paid for it and might not actually have the knowledge and skill to pull off what they would like to do. I gotta say that I'm not very optimistic about W:A's future these days. I generally don't have a problem finding a game to play when I log on, but finding older and/or skilled players can be really tough a lot of the time. What prompted so many people to quit at roughly the same time?

I know that I am going off-topic but eh, whatever. Keeping W:A fresh and active is really important to me because nothing else out there (in terms of games) is as addictive and fun. What's around today that can rival W:A in terms of replay value? I haven't been able to find anything even close. I might get burned out from time to time from playing and want to take short breaks, but I couldn't ever see myself retiring for good. At this point W:A has kinda become a part of my life in a sense. I've been playing it for basically half of my life.

I don't think that releasing 3.8 is really going to bring in any new people, and as far as enticing older players to become active again, who knows? That completely depends on what 3.8 entails in terms of updates and whether or not that person quit playing because of non-Worms-related issues.

I just wish that everyone would become active again and never stop playing. Furthermore, I see no reason to NOT release 3.8, and I also see no reason to be so quiet about what it entails. This game community is extremely small and loyal and lording information over others just seems pointless. I could understand keeping things quiet when it comes to a newer title, but FFS this game is almost old enough to vote. At this point, everything should be public knowledge - everything.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 11:11 PM by skunk3 »

Offline j0e

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CyberShadow hasn't done much of anything in years because of whatever reason(s). (Assuming he fundamentally disagrees with DC on many issues and has basically stopped trying.)

That's not true at all. HostingBuddy and WormNAT have been the largest forces keeping Wormnet alive through the past several years. Cybershadow has been active making continual improvements to HB - adding TUS map support, improved map info, and various small new features. He also hosts these services at his own time and expense, and does not solicit donations. Also don't forget he made Wormkit - where would we be without that?

Trying not to sound like a douche here, but it would be better to thank them for their good intentions and still being around, instead of pointing blame or trivializing their efforts. None of us knows what goes on behind the scenes, and together they have made the game what it is today. I was unaware there was some level of disagreement between them and it's somewhat upsetting .. I really hope they can come to terms and continue working together.

It would be nice to know from Deadcode though if the patch should be expected any time soon (Q1 2018), or if there is some bigger problem that will take some indefinite extended period of time.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 10:21 PM by j0e »

Offline skunk3

CyberShadow hasn't done much of anything in years because of whatever reason(s). (Assuming he fundamentally disagrees with DC on many issues and has basically stopped trying.)
This is not true at all. HostingBuddy and WormNAT have been the largest forces keeping Wormnet alive through the past several years. Cybershadow has been active making continual improvements to HB - adding TUS map support, improved map info, and various small new features. He also hosts these services at his own time and expense, and does not solicit donations. Also don't forget he made Wormkit - where would we be without that?

Trying not to sound like a douche here, but it would be better to thank them for their good intentions and still being around, instead of pointing blame or trivializing their efforts. None of us knows what goes on behind the scenes, and together they have made the game what it is today. I was unaware there was some level of disagreement between them and it's somewhat upsetting .. I really hope they can come to terms and continue working together.

I was only going off of what CyberShadow said previously. Most of the stuff you mentioned is several years old by this point. It's not that I am not grateful for it (that couldn't be further from the truth) it's just that we haven't seen much new. I wasn't in any way demeaning CS's efforts or continued support.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 10:22 PM by skunk3 »

Offline skunk3

Also, if there's stuff he's been doing more recently that I simply do not know about, that is very possible.

Offline j0e

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CyberShadow hasn't done much of anything in years because of whatever reason(s). (Assuming he fundamentally disagrees with DC on many issues and has basically stopped trying.)
This is not true at all. HostingBuddy and WormNAT have been the largest forces keeping Wormnet alive through the past several years. Cybershadow has been active making continual improvements to HB - adding TUS map support, improved map info, and various small new features. He also hosts these services at his own time and expense, and does not solicit donations. Also don't forget he made Wormkit - where would we be without that?

Trying not to sound like a douche here, but it would be better to thank them for their good intentions and still being around, instead of pointing blame or trivializing their efforts. None of us knows what goes on behind the scenes, and together they have made the game what it is today. I was unaware there was some level of disagreement between them and it's somewhat upsetting .. I really hope they can come to terms and continue working together.

I was only going off of what CyberShadow said previously. Most of the stuff you mentioned is several years old by this point. It's not that I am not grateful for it (that couldn't be further from the truth) it's just that we haven't seen much new. I wasn't in any way demeaning CS's efforts or continued support.
Cybershadow said he hasn't been working on the game itself, not that he has been doing nothing. He has made small updates to HB fairly recently (within the past year), and he had to do the whole server update/change when his host shit the bed. That didn't seem like an easy process, even though it took longer than we would have liked.

Offline skunk3

Yeah, I guess I misinterpreted what he meant by that. I definitely appreciate his efforts in a big way. I'm not as informed as some other people when it comes to who is doing what, or what is being done regarding W:A since I rarely check TUS.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 06:58 AM by skunk3 »

Offline CyberShadow

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Will you continue working on the game when 3.8 is released?
Yes, of course.

It is really demotivating to implement a feature or even bugfix, then see it waste away for years in a row in secret alpha builds that only a few people see.

We are in agreement, though, that we need to get back to releasing updates frequently. Hopefully this can become reality instead of another "when it's done" deadlock :)

at least fix the lag on WormNET plz
Could you please be more specific?

If something is buggy due to not being properly tested, yes, I can see the community leaving or being split between versions, but just make sure it's not buggy, eh?
Bugs (potential or known) are not what is holding the release back.

I recommend you
I recommend to not offer unsolicited advice, especially when you have access to less information on the subject than the party you're offering it to :)

What are these 3.8 features people are eagerly waiting for?
Check the support forums (esp. on Steam). Almost every thread is an actionable thing that could be fixed or improved. The worst part, though, is that many of them have been fixed years ago, just waiting to be released.

Devs should work on resuming the dropped game,
Yeah, however it turns out it's a really hard problem.

Then Again, Worms Armageddon 4.0 is probably using up all that valuable time, and that time could've been spent on the short-term 3.8.
Right now nobody is working on 4.0 stuff.

What is it then, are we getting update in January or it's postponed?
We've contacted Team17, and are using the time to continue working on the game.

Also, if there's stuff he's been doing more recently that I simply do not know about, that is very possible.
Lately, the division of labour has been mostly as follows:
  • Deadcode works on the game itself (code that ends up in WA.exe)
  • I work on everything else, i.e.:
    • Maintaining WormNET services, i.e. WormNAT2, HostingBuddy, SheriffBot
    • Maintaining the servers the above run on
    • WormNET moderation
    • Development tools (building, releasing, localization, documentation)
    • Development infrastructure (bug tracking, communication, source code repository)
    • Cheat countermeasures
    • Communication with Team17
    • Communication with the community, apparently
    • Setting arbitrary deadlines :)
    Of course, any of the things above are smaller than working the game itself. I might be wrong, but by my very rough estimate, the total amount of time we spend on W:A-related tasks lately ends up about the same.
This division occurred mainly by us doing the things we're better at. Deadcode has been working on the game's code since about 2002, and knows it inside and out. My experience is less focused and more widespread, which is why my time is better spent on all the support tooling.

Currently I'm working on an internal tool that will make it much easier for us to document and localize the changelog, at Deadcode's suggestion. This tool has an open-source component, you can follow its development here: https://github.com/CyberShadow/rtf2any/commits/master
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 07:46 PM by CyberShadow »

  • Communication with the community, apparently

I lol'd, but then I felt bad. :'(

Nice breakdown of your tasks in recent times and the reason behind it, btw. That's the sort of thing I think the more technically inclined people in any game's community love to read about!

Offline skunk3

@CyberShadow - So what is the reason why these improvements and bug fixes are not being released? I'd find that demotivational as well. Is it Team17's decision? Deadcode's? Knowing that there's numerous fixes and improvements that can be added to the game yet they aren't for some mysterious reason is irksome. There's absolutely no point in not rolling out updates as soon as they are available unless I'm missing something?

I'd love to hear an explanation for this because I can't think of any good reason why these updates/fixes shouldn't be released the moment they are ready. Who do you talk with at Team17 and what is the nature of your communication? How often do you communicate? (Just curious!)




Totally unrelated - does anyone know who/what "DataLate'irssi" is? That name is *always* in #AG and it clearly isn't a player because they don't join or host games, or communicate.

Offline Ryan

Why the entitlement?

Offline Jengu

Totally unrelated - does anyone know who/what "DataLate'irssi" is? That name is *always* in #AG and it clearly isn't a player because they don't join or host games, or communicate.

Irssi is an IRC client. I would say they probably logged in from a server somewhere and never bothered to end the session.
           

Offline CyberShadow

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So what is the reason why these improvements and bug fixes are not being released?
I think the first page of this thread is as close to an answer as you'll probably get for now.

Who do you talk with at Team17 and what is the nature of your communication? How often do you communicate? (Just curious!)
Sorry, I don't know to which extent I can discuss our communication with Team17.

Offline Ytrojan

We should release a minor bugfix release for the 3.7 line ([/size]3.7.3.1), to prevent people from quitting because WA doesn't work. Mostly compatibility fixes, with some bug fixes.
Imagine What a Buck Could Do!


I now declare a brand new league (and the successor to the failed Ultra League): WormsRF!


Offline skunk3

Why the entitlement?

It's not entitlement per se... I just care. I've been playing W:A since launch and I still play it pretty much daily, and I find it annoying that according to everything I've heard, 3.8 has basically been finished for quite some time yet for some mysterious reason it hasn't been released and only a handful of testers have had the chance to see it. If there's an update out there that can possibly pull people out of retirement and entice them to actually play W:A again on a regular basis, I want to see it released.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 09:18 PM by skunk3 »

Offline TheWalrus

Thanks for the info CS