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Author Topic: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)  (Read 10380 times)

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Offline TheKomodo

Re: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2014, 12:43 PM »
After reading this thread, the other thread that ended up talking about schemes, and all the other threads complaining and/or discussing variations of other schemes...

I have to ask the question, what makes a WA scheme league worthy and who gets to decide that?

It seems to me that before TuS introduced Free League, you would only have the choice of playing a TINY % of all available WA schemes competitively to earn respect in the popular website based WA community (WACL/WL/FB/TuS).

We started off with only BnG, Roper & Elite. Over the years only schemes that show close resemblance to these 3 schemes were added to the main leagues, TTRR, T17, WxW, Shopper, Hysteria.

I feel like we are stuck in a comfort zone, competitive gaming has MUCH more to offer than these few oldschool schemes:


Abnormal & Intermediate are both popular competitive schemes which show both use of tactical skill and technical skill.

Kaos is another popular free league scheme which shows great tactical & technical skills.

Of course everyone is going to push for their favourite schemes, and schemes they are passionate about, well for me it's Darts:

Darts is a scheme that takes minutes to learn but patience and time to master!

It's an exceptionally competitive game like TTRR that has no luck factor*, it's all about being consistent, especially in official matches when under pressure.

The cherry on top for Darts is most maps require different throwing styles, maps have unique rules which make it more interesting & challenging, many of the different maps look & feel beautiful to play on.

*Granted, there are a few maps which because of the design are somewhat luck based, but this is only a small handful out of the full set of Darts maps, also take note there is an official TFL Darts Map pack which should be used when playing TFL games, this map pack does not include the "luck based" maps.

These maps that are luck based were the 1st maps to be made for this scheme, over the past 3 years we have updated the general Darts rules and honed our ability to make exceptional maps that avoid any luck and focus entirely on skill!

Most players who make Darts maps pass them onto the dS community to test and edit before being released on TuS / WMDB and the results are always excellent!

All maps made or edited by the dS community presently are extremely solid in design & playability relying solely on skill/consistency to beat your opponents!

The only downside to Darts and generally the only thing I see people complain about is having to place 8 worms at the starting position, however if and when WA 4.x comes out, there will be no waiting time as we will have auto placement.

Even with the manual placement of 16 worms* in both 1v1 & 2v2 games still take less than 10 minutes (averaging on 5-8 minutes per game).

*1v1 - 8 worms each.
  2v2 - 4 worms each.

Darts is also the most played Free League scheme, it might not be super compared to the popularity of Classic schemes but for the community of players who enjoy Darts that's a great thing! I've seen more and more players hosting/joining Darts through their own hosts or with Hostingbuddy, it's always a hugely successful scheme in Worm Olympics as well.

Obviously this scheme has nothing to offer for those who solely enjoy tactical games, but for those who enjoy technical skill this game is one of the best WA has to offer. I realize there are those out there who won't even give this scheme a chance because it has absolutely nothing to do with Classic schemes that players are used to, but with an evergrowing community of maps, unique rules & players it's a great time to get into this scheme!


Offline Aerox

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Re: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2014, 02:19 PM »
Can you let this thread serve its purpose and go to the other one and make that one about Komo/Darts if you please?

OP was pretty clear:

Quote
Oh yeah, we're doing ground schemes only first, so we don't overwhelm ourselves

Thanks
MonkeyIsland, my friend, I know your english is terrible and your understanding of society limited. However, in real life, people attack and humiliate others without the use of a single bad word. They even go to war with lengthy politeness. You can't base the whole moderation philosophy of a community based on the use of bad words and your struggle with sarcasm and irony. My attack to Jonno was fully justified and of proper good taste.
Eat a bag full of dicks.

Re: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2014, 08:47 PM »
BnG

Quote
1. Should worm health be set to 250 in 1v1 matches? Between highly skilled players, on slightly more open maps, I feel games can be over very quickly with only 200 health; the additional 50 health makes it take roughly two solid hits more before a worm loses all health, which feels about right to me. For 2v2 matches, 200 health per worm is fine.

This one is simple. There is a number of players who are able to finish a round of BnG very quickly, but how many of them? The standard scheme variant should be satysfying for both sides, veterans and mediocre/newbie players, especialy considering the fact that the scheme would possibly target random people at WormNet's ranked play one day. Time has shown that even if a round of BnG can last 5-10minutes on average between scheme specialists, it can also last uncomparably longer between people not specialised with the scheme. And we know that there is not too many bng scheme specialists anyway. Also, BnG doesnt look slow/fast in comparision to other schemes on average, and remember that a game of RR lasts much shorter, no matter if you are good or bad at it. On top of that, some people simply get frustrated playing BnG and being unable to hit eachother - while its not a good excuse for old players, new players might find having to play even longer BnG as a waste of time (50hp difference can be too huge for them).

Quote
2. Should there be rules preventing straight Bazooka shots and the use of Shotgun to damage enemy worms? I feel it's cleaner not to have them because these things can very easily be countered by hiding intelligently and only agreeing to play on at least somewhat complex (not completely flat) maps. It's also somewhat optimistic to hope that everyone's personal definition of what a straight Bazooka shot is would be the same, and I'm not sure an objective definition is even possible to put forward. Can it be and what would it sound like, in terms that the game could enforce on its own, objectively?

I dont like the idea of overly complicating BnG rules, so it might be a good idea to not include these at all. But imagine a situation like this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43525724/straightshot.PNG That, imo, isnt the spirit of BnG. However the problem is that not every zook aimed straight can fall under this category, for example a zook that does a gentle curve, shooting an opponent's worm who is standing way below your worm's level is legit. So i'd say that rule needs a better explanation, but still even the best written rule will have a loophole that eventually people will take advantage of, sooner or later, not necessarly often.

Quote
3. Should Blow Torch, Girder and Pneumatic Drill be part of the scheme? Having infinite Fire Punch, Shotgun and Teleport seems to replace these in most real life situations almost completely, while keeping scheme rules simpler (no grey area Girder rules, fewer darksiding situations). Currently, only infinite Blow Torch remains in the scheme, largely for reasons of tradition, but I guess it doesn't break anything if the darksiding rule is kept simple and easy to agree on. Torch tunnels are kind of fun to try and aim into (and out of) as well, so I'm inclined to keep Blow Torch in there.

I have no problems with Blow Torch, it can even make the game even more interesting as there are more fancy passages for grenade to bounce through. Drill can be useful in a situation where you can be easily pushed down to a ditch, so using it will put your opponent in advantage anyway. Also I dont see it being abused - if you dig yourself too deep, you wont be able to hit eachother with a grenade. Teleport can be used for similar purposes as well. Girders are completely gamebreaking though. It should be taken down long ago. The most basic example is that sometimes part of bng is about making your opponent run out of hides, so even if someone uses a girder for bounce, later into the game it WILL be used as an additional hide or obstacle, no question about it, even if not done on purpose. The shot which should normally hit you will hit girder. You push your opponent under a girder and then what. There is only 1 map and it shouldnt be modifed in anyway, other than weapons.

Quote
4. Should TestStuff's circular aiming be part of the scheme? Why did TUS start enforcing it for BnG? I find it breaks my normal way of aiming completely so that I have to rely on notching more because of it, not less. Without going into the details of notching, isn't that the opposite of the desired effect? Not to mention that with the current implementation of it, fall damage is actually easier to achieve, making it very hard for players with 10+ years of BnG experience to estimate shot damage, while adding no positive effects that I can think of. TestStuff really has no place in BnG, I feel.

Definitely no place in BnG.



Elite

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1. Should Elite be best of 2 or 3 like Intermediate is? I think one reason it began to be played on stupidly edited maps is that people perhaps felt that being the first to place your worm offered a tangible advantage (I'm sure it doesn't in the grand scheme of things) to the player who gets to start, so making the scheme Bo2/Bo3 would address that fear even better than playing on maps that are 95% terrain. If at the same time, those maps were abolished and forgotten about and Elite became a random map scheme again, average round time would likely decrease a little too, so playing two rounds instead of a single one wouldn't be too bad, time wise.

Elite is the best example of a scheme fitting for bo1. There is no advantage of starting first/second other than weapon delays. There are just as many ways to take advantage of starting first as there are in starting second, its all up to player's mind.

Quote
4. Does the floating weapon glitch need to be forbidden in Elite, Intermediate and possibly also Team17? The way I see it, it's not really a glitch, it's just one of the instances where players have figured out how to place weapons that normally explode on impact on top of a worm so gently that it doesn't count as a heavy enough collision to cause them to explode. If it happened by accident under different circumstances, would it still count as breaking scheme rules? It's a pretty tricky situation.

I dont see how it can be unfair towards oppoent to use it, so whatever.

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5. Does jumping after using Pneumatic Drill and Teleport (during the game, not when initially placing your worms) really have to be forbidden in Elite/Intermediate/Team17? I never really thought of it as a glitch, it's just that the game gives you 0.02s of retreat time after using them, and by mashing a jump key hard, you can get it to sometimes happen. It's probably true that cheaters could write a script that would help them do it more easily, but such cheating is obviously against the rules of any self-respecting competition, so should we really let that spoil this difficult to achieve trick for the rest of us? I really kinda like that it's there.

The nature of Drill/Teleport is that you arent supposed to perform any action after using it, so yes, it should stay forbidden.



Intermediate

Quote
4. Anything else? This competitive Intermediate variant without crates and with the slightly powered down Mortar and Cluster Bomb is probably just about perfect the way it is now, I feel.

Intermediate is perfect as it is.



Team17

I feel like this scheme has way too many flaws right now to discuss them in 1 topic together with the other schemes. Also i didnt really have the pleasure to play around with other variations other than additional hazard objects, that is +mines, so my knowledge is limited.



Cluster/Mortar powers

This one is quite overall about all the schemes at once so i will just go with it separately. I actually dont know the story about why it was decided to set Cluster to power 1 and Mortar to power 3 in Elite. The idea of Clustering a worm beneath is to punish bad hide. Power 1 cluster does up to 60 average damage on a scalpel (object in a Hospital themed map) while power 2 cluster does about 70 damage. Now i might sound a bit biased towards Intermediate, as i favor it over anything else, but ~70 damage for a "perfect" cluster feels like the most ideal value objectively speaking, similar to dynamite. In a not so perfect placement scenario it will still do about 60 damage, while doing barely 50 with power 1 cluster is clearly not enough for a punish, even if it still makes you able to kill 51 hp worm without big explosive like a dynamite. I havent tested power 1 too much, but im pretty sure it is possible to do even less than 50 with every shard hitting the worm, so why would i gamble. Gambling is bad, there is enough randomness in Worms, even in Elite. If my opponent decided to reveal himself that easily, he should get punished. Speaking about randomness, how do you feel if your full hp, well secured worm just got killed by mortar-suicide? It makes no sense, no weapon should be as powerfull when you have a few of them in backpack, which already has enough of deadly weapons in it. The only thing that worries me when it comes to mortar power other than 3 is the crater size. Power 3 is useful for digging purposes, less power not really. What would be ideal for us is if crater size at power 2 stood the same as at the power of 3, but damage cap was decreased. Anyway, as for today, i dont think Intermediate people would go for overpowered mortar, or in this case underpowered cluster punisher, but i can only speak for myself. The question is, would Elite vets agree to have both of them at power 2? Other than that, KRD already said that it is very important for every scheme to have the same power values (except Team17 for crate balancing purposes or other gimmicky schemes like Mole/Kaos).



Map selection

Where do i start.
Since we are discussing the officialy accepted competitive side of things, whats more important than being fair in the first place. Its not fair to pick whatever map you fancy, taking advantage of a situation where your opponent doesnt know, doesnt realise or doesnt care what he is going to play. It doesnt help that today's standards are edited maps no matter what is played on it, but mainly elite, and people are okay with it, some even prefer it over the randomly generated maps, or even worse, they find random maps to be somewhere between unfair / without hide / too simple and they hate it, while its only them at fault for not generating a map complex enough or playing like shit, ignoring the fact that how the map is played goes both ways, to you and to your opponent. These maps, with the addition of multiple themes on top of eachother, is the most clueless idea that ever happened to competitive Worms, and its scary that people have accepted it. Also whats with the thinking that every elite game played on island should come to an end in SD, after most of the map has already been sinked. Situations like these should be at least uncommon, but then its also up to a player if hes good/fast enough to finish before it, so cant blame anyone who has to replay a map because of a draw. How about entertainment for spectators? These maps dont even look good nor serious, they only represent how silly the competetive community of WA has to be. Now what about agreements? I mean if boths players fancy edited maps, be it slightly or overly edited ones? Then nothing will change. It will still be widely accepted and wont be treated as wrongdoing. So ideally, in the future, map editor should be smart enough to propose a good, random map for a ranked play, at the same time showing it in realtime in the preview. Thats the only fair way of solving map selection in ground schemes, so for now it should be up to players to preview a map or just accept it and play like they used to, just being assured that the map shape is legit. The same goes to BnG maps, just for now with the exception of converting Team17 map into it, as there is no other, better way. Oh and different map themes should be encouraged somehow. In short, there should be 1 type of accepted, playable map, which is random shape proposed by the game, equal for everyone, not as many shape variants as shapes of heads crafting them. D'oh.
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Offline Aerox

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Re: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2014, 09:33 PM »
Elite is the best example of a scheme fitting for bo1. There is no advantage of starting first/second other than weapon delays.

I see no objetive absolute advantage of going second.

But going first gives you the option to take the best hide in the map (which can become the 2nd best or even worst hide in the map in two turns, but still, we're talking absolutes here),  and do more damage over the course of the game.

Just because Elite allows you to lose your advantage in a turn by turn basis, with leads being very subjective and changing a lot between players, it doesn't mean you don't get an advantage by going first, even if that advantage can change as quick as in a turn.

Quote from: lacoste
I dont see how it can be unfair towards oppoent to use it, so whatever.

Quote
The nature of Drill/Teleport is that you arent supposed to perform any action after using it, so yes, it should stay forbidden.

I feel you're contradicting yourself here. Petrol's nature is that they explode in contact. They can't be dropped and be exploded on a timer.

However, I'd allow both them to stay in the game. Because the game allows both to happen by nature and they're not close to being game-breaking in any way, in fact, it's questionable they're ever useful.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 09:36 PM by Aerox »
MonkeyIsland, my friend, I know your english is terrible and your understanding of society limited. However, in real life, people attack and humiliate others without the use of a single bad word. They even go to war with lengthy politeness. You can't base the whole moderation philosophy of a community based on the use of bad words and your struggle with sarcasm and irony. My attack to Jonno was fully justified and of proper good taste.
Eat a bag full of dicks.

Re: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2014, 10:19 PM »

Quote from: lacoste
I dont see how it can be unfair towards oppoent to use it, so whatever.

Quote
The nature of Drill/Teleport is that you arent supposed to perform any action after using it, so yes, it should stay forbidden.

I feel you're contradicting yourself here. Petrol's nature is that they explode in contact. They can't be dropped and be exploded on a timer.

However, I'd allow both them to stay in the game. Because the game allows both to happen by nature and they're not close to being game-breaking in any way, in fact, it's questionable they're ever useful.

Teleport to jump can be useful in a situation where you have no other utilties / no way to run to your opponent and you are able to teleport/jump and knock him into water, for example. Same about the drill, just feels like its harder to time it properly.

The floating weapon glitch is indeed questionable if its useful in any way, thats why i choose to be neutral. Unless its possible to find a tricky and reliable way of using it, but i doubt it. Anyway, just so you know, im not a big fan of this mechanic for how it looks and how to trigger it.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 10:22 PM by lacoste »
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Offline Aerox

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Re: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2014, 10:23 PM »
able to teleport/jump and knock him into water, for example.

I don't think it's unbalanced then. If you manage to put your worm in said position it's a bad play, considering the amount of weapons that could knock you off.
MonkeyIsland, my friend, I know your english is terrible and your understanding of society limited. However, in real life, people attack and humiliate others without the use of a single bad word. They even go to war with lengthy politeness. You can't base the whole moderation philosophy of a community based on the use of bad words and your struggle with sarcasm and irony. My attack to Jonno was fully justified and of proper good taste.
Eat a bag full of dicks.

Re: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2014, 10:34 PM »
able to teleport/jump and knock him into water, for example.

I don't think it's unbalanced then. If you manage to put your worm in said position it's a bad play, considering the amount of weapons that could knock you off.

Not if you carefully observe map/opponent's moves and count his utilties, so this is the only play that might finish you. Better to avoid situation like this by forbidding, even if its very unlikely to happen, and certainly not what its supposed to do.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 10:40 PM by lacoste »
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Offline Casso

Re: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2014, 10:53 PM »
BnG (Bazooka & Grenades)

Quote
No darksiding.
*Darksiding is hiding your worm in a position where it's impossible for your opponent(s) to hit you with a grenade and at the same time impossible for you to hit your opponent(s) with a grenade.

I would just add a word: "direct" nade. It's too easy to stay hidden and use bank nades for whole game. Opponent should be able to hit you with a direct nade otherwise it would be too difficult to hit the one who decided to hide.

Quote
1. Should worm health be set to 250 in 1v1 matches? Between highly skilled players, on slightly more open maps, I feel games can be over very quickly with only 200 health; the additional 50 health makes it take roughly two solid hits more before a worm loses all health, which feels about right to me. For 2v2 matches, 200 health per worm is fine.

I agree with lacoste here. A lot of players doesn't like this scheme, I would avoid stretch their suffering.

Quote
2. Should there be rules preventing straight Bazooka shots and the use of Shotgun to damage enemy worms? I feel it's cleaner not to have them because these things can very easily be countered by hiding intelligently and only agreeing to play on at least somewhat complex (not completely flat) maps. It's also somewhat optimistic to hope that everyone's personal definition of what a straight Bazooka shot is would be the same, and I'm not sure an objective definition is even possible to put forward. Can it be and what would it sound like, in terms that the game could enforce on its own, objectively?

In this case I feel that these shots should be allowed. It's up to your opponent to hide in a place where he can't be hit by these forbidden lame shots. Too many rules risk to ruin this scheme.

Quote
3. Should Blow Torch, Girder and Pneumatic Drill be part of the scheme? Having infinite Fire Punch, Shotgun and Teleport seems to replace these in most real life situations almost completely, while keeping scheme rules simpler (no grey area Girder rules, fewer darksiding situations). Currently, only infinite Blow Torch remains in the scheme, largely for reasons of tradition, but I guess it doesn't break anything if the darksiding rule is kept simple and easy to agree on. Torch tunnels are kind of fun to try and aim into (and out of) as well, so I'm inclined to keep Blow Torch in there.

Remove girder and keep drill, shotgun, torch and punch, I kinda like them in game.

Hysteria

Quote
Modes

1v1 (8 worms per player); Best of 1
2v2 (4 worms per player); Best of 1

8 worms are far too much, it's too chaotic and even more it incentives to suicide worms, We must try to make this behavior disadvantageous. Adding more worms doesn't help. I think that 4 worms are enough.

Quote
Maps

Unedited random maps (any island or cavern preset; example1, example2).
*Ideally, maps should be complex enough so that both sides have the opportunity to attain meaningfully valuable hides (on island maps these would usually be high ground hides that aren't entirely exposed to Bazooka attacks from the sides).
*Any terrain texture is fine. Bridges are fine too.

Hysteria can't be played in a cavern, players like to use bazooka, grenades not just flying with jetpack and drop mines. It would limit too much the game and especially many players would choose these maps against those who have good skills in bng

Quote
2. Is 12 randomly placed Mines too much and should we stick to the old variant with only 8 of them? I find that on complex island maps with 8 worms a side, the early game is more meaningful with slightly more than 8 randomly placed hazards, but 16 has proven too much for competitive play because it usually means that every placement spot available after the worms have spawned is filled with mines; this is particularly unwelcome on simpler maps.

In case we will decide to play with 8 worms per team it is necessary to increase the number of mines but as I said, I would keep 4 worms and 8 mines.

Quote
4. What happened to random worm order in Hysteria? Has anyone ever tested it thoroughly in 1v1 matches (preferably with more than 4 worms a side) and what were their findings?

Randomsteria is really a good alternative to Hysteria because it makes inconvenient to suicide their worms and it is more difficult to play on the opponent's turns (you know telecow, jetpackcow) but the luck factor is much higher and WA doesn't like this word especially if it is played competitively. We should discuss more about this point because it's very important.

Elite

Quote
Maps

Unedited random maps (any island or cavern preset is generally fine, but highly complex maps are almost a must, so using the double island (top right) and closed cave (bottom left) presets with carefully reseeded objects is the most common; example1, example2).
*Any terrain texture is fine. No, really. Only playing on Fruit and sometimes Cheese is lame and boring for spectators. Bridges are fine too.

I prefer playing Elite on edited maps but I am willing to play in any map except caverns. When a game is hosted players must agree on the map before light up so I don't see the problem. We just need to find the right balance in complexity because we aren't playing mole shopper or Intermediate, this is Elite.
Same for terrain texture except the hell theme. That one should be forbidden from every scheme because it prevents to see properly the map because of his fake black.

Quote
1. Should Elite be best of 2 or 3 like Intermediate is? I think one reason it began to be played on stupidly edited maps is that people perhaps felt that being the first to place your worm offered a tangible advantage (I'm sure it doesn't in the grand scheme of things) to the player who gets to start, so making the scheme Bo2/Bo3 would address that fear even better than playing on maps that are 95% terrain. If at the same time, those maps were abolished and forgotten about and Elite became a random map scheme again, average round time would likely decrease a little too, so playing two rounds instead of a single one wouldn't be too bad, time wise.

Elite has always been Bo1 and I would keep it as it is and I add that edited map help to reduce this little advantage. Players doesn't like spending too much time for a match and Bo3 can also mean an hour of game if no draws occur => scheme loses popularity.

Quote
3. Should the power of Mortar (commonly at 3 stars of power in modern schemes) and Cluster Bomb (commonly at 1 star) be standardised with what they are in the league varaint of the Intermediate scheme (both at 2 stars) or left as they are? Having this the same between the two ground schemes could make it easier for players to stay in top shape at both of them at the same time, but some people may be too used to being able to (almost) kill 100 health worms with Mortar and grave damage in Elite, and thus be unable to adapt to the change. Cluster Bomb, on the other hand, would be fine at 2 stars of power rather than the current 1 either way, I think. It's used extremely rarely as it is.

I totally agree with lacoste about this point.

Quote
5. Does jumping after using Pneumatic Drill and Teleport (during the game, not when initially placing your worms) really have to be forbidden in Elite/Intermediate/Team17? I never really thought of it as a glitch, it's just that the game gives you 0.02s of retreat time after using them, and by mashing a jump key hard, you can get it to sometimes happen. It's probably true that cheaters could write a script that would help them do it more easily, but such cheating is obviously against the rules of any self-respecting competition, so should we really let that spoil this difficult to achieve trick for the rest of us? I really kinda like that it's there.

In this case I agree with KRD, it is part of the game and I would keep it in every scheme. It's very hard to perform so, why not ? In Hysteria I try to use this trick everytime I teleport badly my worm or if I need to jump away from a mine (to damage an enemy worm) and sometimes it worked. I assure you that is a real satisfaction
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 10:57 PM by Casso »

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Re: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2014, 02:10 AM »
I agree with Casso on the cavern thing about hysteria.
You could just hide on a side, then wait for SD.
Easy tie for 1v1.
It should be played with 6 worms in 1v1 and 3 worms 2v2 (6 per team). 8 worms makes it too long, and makes turn advantage even easier to abuse of.
BnG should not allow hides that can't hit be directly with a nade because... well there are some hides that can't be hit at all... and you can still bank nades.
Elite should allow edited maps, but not saved maps.

Well that's my opinion.  :P
Mole shopper is the worst thing in the world.

Re: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2014, 03:54 AM »
For BnG, I have a suggestion to come with a reasonable initial HP amount.

How many spot-on attacks are necessary to kill a worm? Let's suppose the most common damage a Bazooka does when hitting the worm directly is 44hp. Let's also suppose that a Grenade hitting a worm spot-on normally causes 43hp. (The damages are debatable, even provable, so this simplification is just to introduce my suggestion.)

I propose the initial BnG HP is equal to a combined sum of a multiple of the maximum non-fd damages you can achieve with a direct bazooka/grenade hit. For example: If you hit three perfect bazookas and two perfect grenades, you would cause 2 * 44hp + 2 * 43hp = 174hp of damage. If we use 174 as a starting HP for every worm, this would mean it would have to receive four perfect attacks in order to die.

You can come with different starting HP using different multiples. I.e. three bazooka hits instead of two would result in 218hp. Or if you change the damages, the result also changes.

TL;DR instead of arbitrarily sticking with 200 or 250, figure out how much damage grenades and bazookas usually do when landing a direct hit, and then multiply the damages by a number of required hits and add both results to get the starting HP.

Offline Aerox

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Re: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2014, 09:16 AM »
Elite (...) I am willing to play in any map except caverns.

Why? Because it's different from banking shots ad infinitum then using SS? Because it introduces new Super Weapons? New tactics?

MonkeyIsland, my friend, I know your english is terrible and your understanding of society limited. However, in real life, people attack and humiliate others without the use of a single bad word. They even go to war with lengthy politeness. You can't base the whole moderation philosophy of a community based on the use of bad words and your struggle with sarcasm and irony. My attack to Jonno was fully justified and of proper good taste.
Eat a bag full of dicks.

Offline Casso

Re: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2014, 10:05 AM »
Elite (...) I am willing to play in any map except caverns.

Why? Because it's different from banking shots ad infinitum then using SS? Because it introduces new Super Weapons? New tactics?

barman hosted a Cave Elite cup: https://www.tus-wa.com/cups/cup-652 and I watched at least 20 replays. These maps help a lot who always plays in defense without ever attack because there are only 2 ropes and it's very hard to reach the enemy worm. With this kind of maps 70% of the game is played during the sudden death that is a real lottery because the aim  isn't to kill your opponent, but to stay hidden and try not to drown before him.
In an open map this rarely happens because it's much easier to use rope or attack with air strike, napalm, homing, bazooka, petrols, grenades...
Just look these replays and you'll understand what I'm talking about:

https://www.tus-wa.com/cups/game-168151/

In my opinion Elite is the scheme that works best. I would avoid to make changes that might ruin it.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 10:10 AM by Casso »

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Re: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2014, 10:32 AM »
Elite (...) I am willing to play in any map except caverns.

Why? Because it's different from banking shots ad infinitum then using SS? Because it introduces new Super Weapons? New tactics?

barman hosted a Cave Elite cup: https://www.tus-wa.com/cups/cup-652 and I watched at least 20 replays. These maps help a lot who always plays in defense without ever attack because there are only 2 ropes and it's very hard to reach the enemy worm. With this kind of maps 70% of the game is played during the sudden death that is a real lottery because the aim  isn't to kill your opponent, but to stay hidden and try not to drown before him.
In an open map this rarely happens because it's much easier to use rope or attack with air strike, napalm, homing, bazooka, petrols, grenades...
Just look these replays and you'll understand what I'm talking about:

https://www.tus-wa.com/cups/game-168151/

In my opinion Elite is the scheme that works best. I would avoid to make changes that might ruin it.

Small sample size. People that are used to open maps and this is their first of one of the first contacts with cave elite.

The only reason SD camping is a thing in T17 is because infinite girders. If someone SD camps in Elite it's your own bad weapon management.

MonkeyIsland, my friend, I know your english is terrible and your understanding of society limited. However, in real life, people attack and humiliate others without the use of a single bad word. They even go to war with lengthy politeness. You can't base the whole moderation philosophy of a community based on the use of bad words and your struggle with sarcasm and irony. My attack to Jonno was fully justified and of proper good taste.
Eat a bag full of dicks.

Re: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2014, 11:10 AM »
Excellent posts, coste & Casso! I think that's the sort of feedback we want a lot more of. If others start doing it like you guys did, it really might be a good idea to split this into one forum topic per scheme, and keep a central topic for discussing things related to more than one scheme as well as the decision process itself. But I guess then we'd need a separate subforum for the project, so we don't spam the main WA one with 10+ threads and potentially have some of the less popular scheme discussions get lost among other threads. We can look into doing that a little later, I guess, so far the thread has been pretty nicely readable in my opinion.

Pertaining to the cave map disagreement, I think it's sensible to point out that Elite and even BnG (an artillery scheme like Hysteria) used to be played on cavern maps all the time a long time ago and definitely worked, the community simply moved away from it for the same reasons it moved away from playing on all the rest of the terrain textures. That is, as part of the general simplification of all the schemes, so that the top players had to deal with a lesser amount of variety and didn't have to master both the aggressive lightside tactics as well as defensive darkside tactics (largely relying on BnG skill on island maps) to be considered competent at the entire Elite (or Hysteria) scheme. Even though I have personally seen both of them work great in caves, I'll definitely have a look at those tournament replays sometime soon too, but I think ropa does very likely have a point when he says that many of the players involved just couldn't have been used to the idea anymore and so played suboptimally from a strategic point of view. Now, I'm sure the argument could be made that if these schemes continue to only be played on island maps, that standardises things more and in a way, makes competitive play more approachable. But it does come at the cost of shunning the type of player who would perhaps otherwise be able to win at Hysteria and Elite in a way that relies on BnG skill a lot less; losing that variety is probably pretty bad from the perspective of new players as well as spectators of high level competitive WA.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 11:14 AM by KoreanRedDragon »

Re: Standard Scheme Variants (Part 1: Competitive Ground Schemes)
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2014, 02:44 PM »
Hysteria
Quote
4. What happened to random worm order in Hysteria? Has anyone ever tested it thoroughly in 1v1 matches (preferably with more than 4 worms a side) and what were their findings?

Randomsteria is really a good alternative to Hysteria because it makes inconvenient to suicide their worms and it is more difficult to play on the opponent's turns (you know telecow, jetpackcow) but the luck factor is much higher and WA doesn't like this word especially if it is played competitively. We should discuss more about this point because it's very important.

Luck factor really isn't higher with randomsteria - unless you try to pile your way to victory. Your worm positions simply all need to be good. If you have a worm in a useless position, then that worm truly becomes a reliability now.
Random turn order isn't completely random - if you have 4 worms, then the next 4 turns will be randomized, but all your worms get their turn. After that is completed, a new batch of turns is decided in exactly the same way - all worms get their turns, but the order in which this happens is randomized.

This means there's still a way to abuse turn order with certain success, but it takes more effort from the person wanting to employ it and can only be used when there's a big advantage in amount of worms (percentage wise). Therefore the importance of this tactic is much more downplayed, especially in the early game. Makes telecide a much less favourable tactic, too.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 11:49 PM by DarkOne »