The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon

Worms: Armageddon => General discussion => Topic started by: Albus on July 06, 2021, 01:02 PM

Title: Worms Tool Assisted offer an advantage? Alternatives to make it public?
Post by: Albus on July 06, 2021, 01:02 PM
EDIT: a module that provides similar functions to the TA mentioned in this topic has been released. Anyone interested, go to: https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/worms-armageddon/wktoolassist-v-0-1-0-released-33517/msg280657/?topicseen#new.



For those who don't know, there is a Tool Assisted (TA) for Worms that allows the player to do various things and learn many details about the game. This tool is not public and is only shared with players who meet certain requirements.

I saw a discussion about TA being an advantage for people who have this tool because they can have faster progress in the game. For some people, the possibility of controlling replays, for example, would be what is of most interest in this regard, as it allows you to repeat mistakes from past games, in order to learn from your own mistakes in practice, instead of just looking at matches etc. I don't know everything you can do with TA. I heard the program has a manual that lists all its tools. If anyone can share this manual it would be nice.

I have been informed that there is a danger in making this tool avaible to everyone:

(https://i.imgur.com/0LFkTYM.png)

However, until this is possible, I would like to share the idea to make a limited version of TA for everyone, at least with the ability to control replays, since the replays files are encrypted so people couldn't use them without authorization:

(https://i.imgur.com/VeiQFNS.png)
Title: Re: TAS for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TAS for everyone?
Post by: Kradie on July 06, 2021, 03:16 PM
Tool assisted Programs aka Cheats, offers unfair advantage, and therefore should not be encouraged.

Particularly in competitive based games.

If you think cheats makes the game approachable, then this game may not be for you.

I say, play the game as is, to the best of your ability.

That's what I think.
Title: Re: TAS for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TAS for everyone?
Post by: Albus on July 06, 2021, 04:01 PM
I also don't support cheats. I think there was a misunderstanding between the TA I'm talking about and what you're thinking.
Title: Re: TAS for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TAS for everyone?
Post by: Albus on July 06, 2021, 04:56 PM
More content related to TA:

http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5736 (http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5736)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ39WR2yK2s&list=PLEkMrmaOJADmHZst0uJGe06k8MJAAS6ye (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ39WR2yK2s&list=PLEkMrmaOJADmHZst0uJGe06k8MJAAS6ye)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPPXQwScFaA&ab_channel=Koenftw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPPXQwScFaA&ab_channel=Koenftw)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6_UMO1S48o&ab_channel=HighCostage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6_UMO1S48o&ab_channel=HighCostage)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgmNZAgxnHk&ab_channel=MEDVEDx64 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgmNZAgxnHk&ab_channel=MEDVEDx64)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF3222N_COc&ab_channel=StepS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF3222N_COc&ab_channel=StepS)
Title: Re: TAS for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TAS for everyone?
Post by: Squirminator2k on July 06, 2021, 05:17 PM
As has been seen in other speedrunning communities, notably Super Mario Bros., TAS runs typically compliment the human runs, as opposed to replacing them. They provide a hypothetical hard-line for the fastest possible run within the game, even if it's not within human capabilities. That's something that has always fascinated me.

Personally, I'd love to see what a TAS run of the WA missions looks like.
Title: Re: TAS for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TAS for everyone?
Post by: Albus on July 06, 2021, 05:32 PM
Personally, I'd love to see what a TAS run of the WA missions looks like.

Here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKkS_ADiA3c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKkS_ADiA3c) and here https://worms2d.info/files/replays/]https://worms2d.info/files/replays/]https://worms2d.info/files/replays/ (https://worms2d.info/files/replays/).

Title: Re: TAS for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TAS for everyone?
Post by: MonkeyIsland on July 06, 2021, 06:12 PM
There are a few TA replays on TUS as well. Mostly on challenges. Check the comments sections of these challenges:

https://www.tus-wa.com/challenges/challenge-371/
https://www.tus-wa.com/challenges/challenge-768/
https://www.tus-wa.com/challenges/challenge-769/
Title: Re: TA for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TA for everyone?
Post by: Squirminator2k on July 07, 2021, 02:00 AM
Ooh, I had no idea those existed! Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: TA for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TA for everyone?
Post by: MonkeyIsland on July 07, 2021, 05:03 AM
Here are some more: (Look for deadcode's posts)

https://www.tus-wa.com/challenges/challenge-70/
https://www.tus-wa.com/challenges/challenge-453/
https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/worms-armageddon/new-hermit-tr13-map-record-24612
Title: Re: TA for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TA for everyone?
Post by: h3oCharles on July 07, 2021, 12:49 PM
tool assisted speedruns and real time attempted speedruns are two different types of speedruns
Title: Re: TA for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TA for everyone?
Post by: FireRat2 on July 07, 2021, 03:27 PM
> Tool-Assisted gameplay is a thing in W:A now
> Only the chosen ones can try it yet

Good for you, lucky ones. Vbl for me though, not that I could influence too much anyway, to what I seen.
And because it just "never ever" makes sense whenever I complain about anything at all, this is the kind of things I just wish I didn't knew so early :v

EDIT: In fact, why would I (typical player) want to know if I MAY or not get to see a limited, not full version, even? Just what's the point lol
EDIT2: 2007?! ... ok no more comments.
Title: Re: TA for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TA for everyone?
Post by: Albus on July 07, 2021, 04:32 PM
EDIT: In fact, why would I (typical player) want to know if I MAY or not get to see a limited, not full version, even? Just what's the point lol

Well, I came up with the idea of giving everyone a limited version because I think it would be something more likely to happen in a near future, since they say giving everyone TA with no restrictions is dangerous because some people can use TA for illicit purposes. I don't understand this subject, so I don't have an opinion.
I know TA has a lot of cool features to use, but just the ability to take control of replays, at least for me, is awesome. So, if there was a limited version with this feature, would be better than nothing.
Title: Re: TA for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TA for everyone?
Post by: cgar on July 08, 2021, 04:56 PM
A public TA build, crippled or not, would be amazing. It would be fantastic for practice. Trying out mission speedrun tactics without having to restart from the beginning, trying out fast roping moves without having to wait for control to return or to teleport back. The list goes on and on.
It might even help me be bothered to start trying out BnG. Being able to see trajectory for practice would make it much less off putting to start learning it.

Title: Re: TA for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TA for everyone?
Post by: Kradie on July 08, 2021, 05:21 PM
My first post in this thread was premature due to lack of understanding of the purpose of such tool. Yet, I stand by my post in general.

I wouldn't mind such tool proposed here. It would be nice.

Though, when it comes to BNG, we have the option ''Weapon Use Doesn't end Turn''.- Still, to see the trajectory would be very handy too.
Title: Re: TA for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TA for everyone?
Post by: Albus on July 09, 2021, 02:23 PM
If giving everyone a limited TA version (with at least the ability to take control of replays - most cool, useful and interesting feature imo) to everyone is a too big step initially, maybe it could be shared initially among players who have already reached a certain skill level, as a reward and recognition for these players, who demonstrates much interest in the game and are useful to the community, as they make leagues more competitive, make more fun and nice to watch events like CWT etc., and also these players inspire others new players.
Title: Re: TA for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TA for everyone?
Post by: Leoric on July 16, 2021, 07:11 PM
For my part, It would be great idea to have limited TA access. The most valuable use I would find for it, is the ability to replay my mistakes in previous games and see if I could get them done right.

But what TA stuff needs to be implemented to worms online games, would be the opportunity to continue game from how it was, after disconnection.
Title: Re: TA for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TA for everyone?
Post by: Memox on July 20, 2021, 06:23 PM
This has been my wormy dream since Dario and Komito mentioned it. I would love to use it to improve myself in the game, with the sole contraindication that it could vastly fuel my addiction. Seriously, interacting with a replay? That's f@#!ing awesome. And it's not likely that that can be abused, Deadcode just need to implement some kind of watermark in-game saying: "Hey, this dude is taking control of a replay. If he pulls off something great, you've been warned!"
Title: Re: TA for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TA for everyone?
Post by: Albus on July 21, 2021, 07:25 PM
This has been my wormy dream since Dario and Komito mentioned it. I would love to use it to improve myself in the game, with the sole contraindication that it could vastly fuel my addiction. Seriously, interacting with a replay? That's f@#!ing awesome. And it's not likely that that can be abused, Deadcode just need to implement some kind of watermark in-game saying: "Hey, this dude is taking control of a replay. If he pulls off something great, you've been warned!"

Hi, Memox! Did you ask Deadcode if he would give it to you? Regarding the replays generated by TA, afaik, they are encrypted. So I don't understand how anyone could forge and publish a replay made with TA.

"The tool-assisted versions of W:A save replays in an encrypted format, which is playable only with the tool-assisted version. Only Deadcode can decrypt them, thus making them playable with normal versions of W:A." https://worms2d.info/Replay_file#Security
Title: Re: TA for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TA for everyone?
Post by: Memox on July 26, 2021, 07:24 PM
This has been my wormy dream since Dario and Komito mentioned it. I would love to use it to improve myself in the game, with the sole contraindication that it could vastly fuel my addiction. Seriously, interacting with a replay? That's f@#!ing awesome. And it's not likely that that can be abused, Deadcode just need to implement some kind of watermark in-game saying: "Hey, this dude is taking control of a replay. If he pulls off something great, you've been warned!"

Hi, Memox! Did you ask Deadcode if he would give it to you? Regarding the replays generated by TA, afaik, they are encrypted. So I don't understand how anyone could forge and publish a replay made with TA.

I didn't, but if he didn't give it to you, a veteran, I highly doubt he would think about me first. Let's just hope he releases it sooner or later as a limited edition, maybe in an official patch. It's harmless, if well implemented, I think... Everybody would benefit from a TA, let alone the potential for those tournaments where you need to restore a game. There are a multifarious of purposes with this tool and it would suck if only a selected few benefitted from it.
Title: Re: TA for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TA for everyone?
Post by: FoxHound on July 27, 2021, 12:42 AM
Let's just hope he releases it sooner or later as a limited edition, maybe in an official patch. It's harmless, if well implemented, I think... Everybody would benefit from a TA, let alone the potential for those tournaments where you need to restore a game. There are a multifarious of purposes with this tool and it would suck if only a selected few benefitted from it.

I think the same. I don't know much about TA, but if it has some interesting features already complete and could be added to the game, that would be great.
Title: Re: TA for Worms. Does it offer an advantage? Limited version of TA for everyone?
Post by: Albus on August 12, 2021, 09:21 AM
I think the same. I don't know much about TA, but if it has some interesting features already complete and could be added to the game, that would be great.

I was informed that the program has a manual, which lists all the features. I asked to have access to this manual. If anyone who has the TA and wants to share the manual, it would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Worms Tool Assisted offer an advantage? Alternatives to make it public?
Post by: StepS on August 13, 2021, 09:21 AM
The problem with TA is that it's been stuck in a loop of not getting the correct design implemented from the start.
Originally, TA was supposed to be public and available for all, but the publication has been delayed because Deadcode's plan was to make encrypted TA replays switch places with public replays. So you could freely alter the contents of the decrypted replay for TA purposes, but altering regular replays would not be possible. This was the plan but currently we're still stuck in a state where this format change has not happened, and therefore the build has not been made publicly available.
I've seen a new implementation of tool-assisted recently. The problem is that it suffers from the same design problem, where TA replays are encrypted, when it should be the other way around. The only solution to that unfortunately is waiting for proper support for the new format(s) in the base game.
Title: Re: Worms Tool Assisted offer an advantage? Alternatives to make it public?
Post by: nizikawa on August 13, 2021, 10:37 AM
.
Title: Re: Worms Tool Assisted offer an advantage? Alternatives to make it public?
Post by: Albus on August 13, 2021, 10:49 AM
The problem with TA is that it's been stuck in a loop of not getting the correct design implemented from the start.
Originally, TA was supposed to be public and available for all, but the publication has been delayed because Deadcode's plan was to make encrypted TA replays switch places with public replays. So you could freely alter the contents of the decrypted replay for TA purposes, but altering regular replays would not be possible. This was the plan but currently we're still stuck in a state where this format change has not happened, and therefore the build has not been made publicly available.
I've seen a new implementation of tool-assisted recently. The problem is that it suffers from the same design problem, where TA replays are encrypted, when it should be the other way around. The only solution to that unfortunately is waiting for proper support for the new format(s) in the base game.

Thank you very much for the explanation, StepS.

I am working on a wormkit module that implements some aspects of TA build.
Here is an example replay created with it: https://www.tus-wa.com/maps/map-1976/msg279988/#msg279988
And a video of it in action: https://files.catbox.moe/1aqbjz.webm

Don't worry - if it ever gets a public release, I will make sure that it is impossible to use it for cheating. The module will require a special modified WA.exe with network capabilities removed. The created replays will announce that they are using TA and will lack state checksums. The module will be closed source and the dll binary will encrypted to prevent reverse engineering.

I had already been informed of your initiative. I, and all players who do not have and wish to have TA, are very grateful for your initiative.
Title: Re: Worms Tool Assisted offer an advantage? Alternatives to make it public?
Post by: j0e on August 14, 2021, 01:31 AM
I am working on a wormkit module that implements some aspects of TA build.
Here is an example replay created with it: https://www.tus-wa.com/maps/map-1976/msg279988/#msg279988
And a video of it in action: https://files.catbox.moe/1aqbjz.webm

Don't worry - if it ever gets a public release, I will make sure that it is impossible to use it for cheating. The module will require a special modified WA.exe with network capabilities removed. The created replays will announce that they are using TA and will lack state checksums. The module will be closed source and the dll binary will encrypted to prevent reverse engineering.
This is great, keep up the good work!