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Author Topic: Updates for HB schemes:  (Read 4523 times)

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Online Sensei

Updates for HB schemes:
« on: October 15, 2018, 06:05 PM »
After consolidating with StepS, I proposed few changes for Hosting Buddy schemes.
For him to update it, we'd need to send him new ones so he can implement it.
Personally can remember 3 of them:

Existent:
Shopper - no zook, random mines, banana in crates
Big RR - 30 sec, banana, teleport
Aerial - random mines, no SD, uzi, 4 mortars, 4 petrols

New: (will attach them below)
Shopper - inf zook, 3 sec mines, no banana in crates
Big RR - 40 sec, no banana, no teleport
Aerial - 3 sec mines, medium SD, no uzi, 2 mortars, 2 petrols


If anyone doesn't agree with changes, would like to hear the reason.
This updating is mainly focused for new ppl that are mostly using HB for playing.
So before commenting or attaching new schemes, try to think like a newcomer.



Offline TheWalrus

Re: Updates for HB schemes:
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2018, 06:18 PM »
After consolidating with StepS, I proposed few changes for Hosting Buddy schemes.
For him to update it, we'd need to send him new ones so he can implement it.
Personally can remember 3 of them:

Existent:
Shopper - no zook, random mines, banana in crates
Big RR - 30 sec, banana, teleport
Aerial - random mines, no SD, uzi, 4 mortars, 4 petrols

New: (will attach them below)
Shopper - inf zook, 3 sec mines, no banana in crates
Big RR - 40 sec, no banana, no teleport
Aerial - 3 sec mines, medium SD, no uzi, 2 mortars, 2 petrols


If anyone doesn't agree with changes, would like to hear the reason.
This updating is mainly focused for new ppl that are mostly using HB for playing.
So before commenting or attaching new schemes, try to think like a newcomer.
Something I just noticed the other day:  Golf scheme has retreat time for some reason, despite there being no reason to retreat, like 5 secs, its quite annoying.  Take it out.  I'm sure there is tons more but I cant remember now.

Offline HHC

Re: Updates for HB schemes:
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2018, 06:31 PM »
Don't f@#! with my Aerial scheme please  >:(

It's good as is, I don't want it to be changed..

Offline h3oCharles

Re: Updates for HB schemes:
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2018, 06:44 PM »
Something I just noticed the other day:  Golf scheme has retreat time for some reason, despite there being no reason to retreat, like 5 secs, its quite annoying.  Take it out.  I'm sure there is tons more but I cant remember now.
what if a map has precise rules on how a worm needs to be placed? reading cues might be hidden by worms

Online Sensei

Re: Updates for HB schemes:
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2018, 07:02 PM »
Something I just noticed the other day:  Golf scheme has retreat time for some reason, despite there being no reason to retreat, like 5 secs, its quite annoying.  Take it out.  I'm sure there is tons more but I cant remember now.
what if a map has precise rules on how a worm needs to be placed? reading cues might be hidden by worms

Golf should be hosted with /boom command (!version boom in hb). Same as boom race.
So worms can go through each other. I see that HB golf nor boomrace does have that implemented. Attaching new ones.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 07:05 PM by Sensei »

Offline Gabriel

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Re: Updates for HB schemes:
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2018, 07:47 PM »
After consolidating with StepS, I proposed few changes for Hosting Buddy schemes.
For him to update it, we'd need to send him new ones so he can implement it.
Personally can remember 3 of them:

Existent:
Shopper - no zook, random mines, banana in crates
Big RR - 30 sec, banana, teleport
Aerial - random mines, no SD, uzi, 4 mortars, 4 petrols

New: (will attach them below)
Shopper - inf zook, 3 sec mines, no banana in crates
Big RR - 40 sec, no banana, no teleport
Aerial - 3 sec mines, medium SD, no uzi, 2 mortars, 2 petrols


If anyone doesn't agree with changes, would like to hear the reason.
This updating is mainly focused for new ppl that are mostly using HB for playing.
So before commenting or attaching new schemes, try to think like a newcomer.
Something I just noticed the other day:  Golf scheme has retreat time for some reason, despite there being no reason to retreat, like 5 secs, its quite annoying.  Take it out.  I'm sure there is tons more but I cant remember now.

golf has retreat time because you could eventually block your opponent's angle, forcing him to rope knock you
but those aren't a problem anymore (with /boom) i guess
Mole shopper is the worst thing in the world.

Offline Magnus

Re: Updates for HB schemes:
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2018, 11:12 PM »
I agree with your changes for the Shopper scheme, except for the mine fuse. It should still be random, otherwise whoever starts playing first will be able to make use of most of the mines, thus gaining this advantage of which the other players won't have later. If random, they'll think twice before risking touching any.

Oh, and another change needed for HB Shopper IMO is that the weapon retreat should be 5 seconds instead of 3 since there are also ground weapons to be used, and the spread from 3 to 10 seconds, when you can even get away with rope so much faster… having 5 seconds to get away on ground is the least you can do to make it more even. Adding more time than 5 seconds wouldn’t be interesting since you likely wouldn’t have much ground to retreat, and it’d be too much of a monotonous and non-dynamic retreat to wait for as far as the game works.

I also enjoy having Uzi and Skunk in crates in Shopper for more variety, but I wouldn’t mind not having them in Shopper. I know Skunk might generate more confusion in who’s leader because of the poison effect.

I’d also like to emphasize how important I think infinite Bazooka is in Shopper. I also always get baffled whenever I see a Shopper scheme made for a tournament, for example, in which there is no infinite Bazooka. It’s like, you have no standard weapon to do reasonable damage if you are unlucky, finding some very weak and ineffective weapon, so it turns out you end up with some dead turns during the matches. With infinite Bazooka, on the other hand, you have something to at least keep you steady in the killing race instead of just being helpless and letting your opponent crush you with a bigger weapon, allowing unnecessary luck to interfere in the game/scheme. Moreover, it allows you to choose whether to use the weapon you found in the crate or Bazooka according to the situation, providing more strategy in play.

The 40 seconds in big rr... I wouldn't see a problem if most Big RRs were played with Rubberworm's /ldet, which is how traditional Big RRs should be played so that all players are allowed to have the same turn time and not lose a game for having had unlucky turns in which make the timer stop (as in any real race). And this is how weaker players manage to beat stronger ones. The fact that one type of fall makes the timer end and another doesn't doesn't justify at all why that should be true; it’s basically just a technical limitation that has a fix. Plus, if you feel like speeding up your pacing, you are already risking falling more often, and hence giving your opponent more chances to catch up. Over the years, I lost count how many times I won a Big RR lamely just because my opponent, who was better, had bl in a few turns. Now I know one can say that falling isn't affected by luck in Big RR since it all comes down to the commands you insert with your fingers, but the fact of a player earning so much more time to outrun his opponent in the race (as a time bonus) is just plain stupid. It can even make the player who is winning slow their pace down just so they can rope safer since the time bonus already granted certain victory to some extent.
Another reason that makes /ldet more enjoyable is that it allows players to rope faster than their usual pace if they are seeking to improve their speed. If you try to do this in a game without /ldet, you are just likely to make your turn end, and then you’d just have to sit and watch the other players race instead of the game having let you play within your turn time limit. And of course, that also leads to a slower improvement from the players.

But since most players don't have rubber, what I tend to do is hosting with 35 seconds and no banana, and here's why: traditional Big RR is 30 secs + 10 secs of banana, so you'd initially think you have 40 seconds, but that's not entirely true. The extra 10 seconds you have won't allow you to keep racing if you fall from rope, so those are some “semi-10 seconds”, which is why I put that very in-between number, 35. And another reason for it is that having 40 seconds under a race scheme settings that might make you lose your turn from the very beginning is just way too much of a time bonus that you might give to your opponent(s). With 35 seconds, however, you won't race as little as you would with only 30 seconds, and you also wouldn't lose that much time if you fall, so the advantage you'd give to your opponent wouldn't be that huge.

What do you mean “no teleport in Big RR”, Sensei? There isn’t teleport already, unless you’re talking about the auto/manual initial placements option?

Offline Senator

Re: Updates for HB schemes:
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2018, 08:16 AM »
@Shopper

Has HB Shopper scheme always had 3s retreat time (AFG)? I guess it's 3s to save time. League schemes and wmdb tournament scheme have 10s retreat, btw. Here it's 5s: http://worms2d.info/File:Shopper.wsc

There are also different versions of crate probabilities. I think you should ask about Shopper on #worms channel before changing anything.

@Aerial

Some of the changes are more like your own personal preference, aren't they? You didn't like full power petrol shots so you reduced them from 4 to 2 etc. The round time is also debatable.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 09:19 AM by Senator »

Offline WTF-8

Re: Updates for HB schemes:
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2018, 09:27 AM »
When I remove teleport from my Big RR scheme, somebody necessarily f@#!s up with initial spawning
The manual in the installation folder is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural

Online Sensei

Re: Updates for HB schemes:
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2018, 01:46 PM »
@Aerial

Some of the changes are more like your own personal preference, aren't they? You didn't like full power petrol shots so you reduced them from 4 to 2 etc. The round time is also debatable.

Every change I've made in Aerial initially come from personal opinion. Ofc. Because I was the only one that cared enough to think about it. And every of those changes were accepted by big majority of players after thorough explanation and after all - their thorough testing.

All of the changes were also explained publicly in many threads before, so there's really no point in doing it again, but here you go: petrols and mortars are reduced to 2 and uzi is removed. Why? Cause when sudden death strikes, it makes it much easier to finish game when you have 4 chances of full powering petrol or notching mortar. Not to speak about uzi when it's late stage of SD and you just burst it on other side of the map. 0 skill envolved in that.

Only ppl I've seen against it was HHC (cause he made existent league scheme) and Chelsea (cause he doesn't like fast and more interesting pace of SD, rather prefers darksiding and 40 min games)

And apparently yourself, Senator, but I don't get the reason behind it.. Knowing you almost never join/host Aerial games in #ag.

Offline Senator

Re: Updates for HB schemes:
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2018, 02:18 PM »
I'm not against your scheme, Sensei. I just wasn't sure if those changes were supposed to fix something or just make the scheme better for yourself. I don't play Aerial, that's true.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 06:38 PM by Senator »

Offline TheWalrus

Re: Updates for HB schemes:
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2018, 08:24 PM »
I'm not against your scheme, Sensei. I just wasn't sure if those changes were supposed to fix something or just make the scheme better for yourself. I don't play Aerial, that's true.
Every change made by sensei to the aerial scheme is grounded in making the scheme more competitive and taking out all the variation from bad spawns, ect. 

I'll make my case in TUS style with a wall of text. 

Mines - 3 sec is better than the original random fuse, random mines are quite ridiculous in a competitive league scheme, full stop.  Let's go beyond the most compelling point if that isn't convincing enough.  Sometimes in random placements you will find yourself in a situation where you need to get by a mine to get into the fight, you basically just have to chance it or dig out.  The biggest problem with aerial to begin with is trapped worms in initial placement.  The teleport is one of the most important utilities in aerial, you only get one.  Thus, you cannot go spending it to free trapped worms because they are behind random mines.  This is the biggest no-brainer change to aerial, I'll try and format this top to bottom, most needed to least needed.

Sudden Death - I feel sudden death is another needed change because of random placements and the proclivity of Bo3 matchups in this scheme.  Sudden death seeks to equal the playing field, if you have bad opening positions and are behind going into SD, you have a chance to win by plopping worms.  This assures no lead given to a player because of good spawns is insurmountable going into the late game.  Also, it shortens boring long games where both players are hiding and unwilling to be aggressive, thus ending a standoff. 

Petrol - This is a tough one.  Petrol is useful for taking out hiding enemy worms at the side of the map, but again, to look at the competitive dna of this game, we arrive back at the teleport issue.  With only one teleport, often you can be forced to use it at the beginning of the game to free an egregiously trapped worm.  With 4 petrols, you can easily petrol and re-petrol a worm to trap it indefinitely.  In all honesty this isn't a big change, 2 ---> 4 petrols is not a meaningful change one way or another

Mortar - Not a big change, 2 ---> 4 mortars isn't going to change much, I don't even think mortar is a more viable option than zook or nade 99% of the time, very little competitive change here. 

Uzi - Not sure, I've never used uzi in aerial.  At least not on purpose.  So I guess it could come out, would be easier for me to select shotgun :)

Sensei has retrofitted the scheme nicely, I think it would be a missed opportunity not to adapt the scheme.  It is a more fast paced and strategic game with the changes. 

Offline TheKaren

Re: Updates for HB schemes:
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2018, 09:03 PM »
Is there any chance of updating the BnG scheme to reflect the current norm? Infinite teleports, shotgun with 1 star power, 1 girder and no blowtorch/drill.

Also, any possibility of adding the a2b scheme as well?

Online Sensei

Re: Updates for HB schemes:
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2018, 10:20 PM »
Mortar - Not a big change, 2 ---> 4 mortars isn't going to change much, I don't even think mortar is a more viable option than zook or nade 99% of the time, very little competitive change here. 

I'd say it is quite a change for game ending.
Mortar have same trajectory as full power nowind zook and full power 4sec grenade.
Now, for zooks, you'll only get, what.. 1-2 zero winds throughout game, if you're lucky enough?
For full power 4 sec grenade you'd need a calculated higher ground to throw from, just so you could get a full damage on worm on other side of the map (and even then few miliseconds will result in total fail)

By having 4 mortars in the ending of a game, when hp is low and hides are non-existent, you basically have 4 zero wind zooks in a row. Even a newbie will figure out how to notch it properly in 4 tries. With 2, your chances are quite lower of hitting the right spot.


Appreciate the comment man. Thx for taking your time.

Offline Kaleu

Re: Updates for HB schemes:
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2018, 04:05 AM »
Yeah Sensei's scheme is better for competitive scenario but I only disagree with 3s fuse mines, it should be 2s.
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