Why don't you play worms armageddon anymore?

[XanKriegor]

11

[skunk3]

I can't be bothered to cut and paste a bunch of individual quotes, so I will just respond to you (Magnus) in order of what you stated.

First of all, since I don't know you and you don't know me, I should first inform you that I've been playing W:A since day one. That's nearly 20 years, so if I say that I can look at a scheme 'on paper' and understand how it works, I mean that. I am supremely confident that I have played far more schemes than you and logged literally thousands more hours of game time than you. I am not saying this to prove any other point than that you're not talking to an ignorant person here. You seem to be taking this topic personally.

The "efficiency" of the strategy one uses is important in ALL schemes, not just Mole. Being efficient and strategic is the name of the game, so to speak.

A lot of top-level Intermediate players (or just good players in general) wouldn't have much of an interest in seriously competing in Mole because of the luck factor. The fact that starting spawns and random crate luck determine who is going to win to such a large degree turns a lot of people off, and it's precisely why Mole is in the league that it is in. If Mole is truly the most tactical/strategic scheme there is then whoever excels at Mole should dominate in other schemes as well... but do they? Nope. You can try to mince words and talk about different 'kinds' of strategy and whatnot, but in the end it's all just Worms, and pretty much everyone here knows Worms inside and out. An elite-level Intermediate player could play TUS Mole matches and fare much better than an 'elite'-level Mole player playing Intermediate matches. This is because while there is a little bit of luck involved in Intermediate, it's not nearly as much as in Mole. The Intermediate player could win or lose based upon said luck, whereas the Mole player engaging in a match of Intermediate wouldn't have that same degree of luck to act as a W/L buffer.

I didn't contradict myself. I understand how Mole is played and what general strategies are best to use in the scheme, but it all goes back to the crate luck factor. To say that I don't have the slightest idea of how the strategy in Mole works is just plain absurd, not to mention utterly untrue. Yes, I'm aware that the TUS Mole scheme is different than the HB Mole scheme but I still understand the scheme and the so-called strategy behind it. (Hoard crates, make tunnels, girder block, try to hold down the high ground, etc.) You have compared it to Chess a couple of times which I think is ridiculous because in Chess your pieces don't start in random places and they also don't get the ability to do unpredictable things. (Crates.) Worms in general is a highly strategic game, IMO even more strategic than Chess as Chess is deterministic. That said, there's nothing about Mole gameplay that elevates it above any other scheme in this game in terms of required strategic competency. NOTHING.

Two players of relatively equal skill level playing Mole? Whoever gets the best random spawn spots and the most/best crate luck wins. Period. If you are able to routinely beat people who have a much larger inventory than you, that indicates to me that you're playing noobs, or at the very least players who aren't near your general skill level. This isn't surprising given the fact that tons of noobs play Mole. *shrug* (And I'm not talking about HB Mole, either.) As I have said many times already - Mole does require some degree of skill and strategy to be good at it, but ultimately it is down to RNG. You can deny this all you want but I know it's true based upon extensive experience with the game, and others agree as well. You can call us all ignorant if you want but ironically you would be saying that to people who very likely have far more experience with the game than you, and the particulars of one specific scheme are trivial.

One can easily force a worm to drown in Mole, TUS or not. Even if they can stay above water you can still dominate the high ground and spam girders, launch moles and wait for a good opening to attack. It's not genius-level tactics we're talking about here.

As far as the mole digging backwards, I thought that maybe there was a key or key combination that one can press/hold to manually change the dig direction. I already knew about it reversing after colliding with terrain. Also, I never claimed to know more than anyone else about this scheme. I only claimed my own opinion, which is backed by objectivity and lots of experience. In fact, I said that I was wrong earlier in the thread and that I didn't know about the particulars of the TUS Mole scheme compared to the HB scheme. I then learned the particular differences and while the TUS Mole scheme is definitely more competitive than the HB Mole scheme, I stand by my objection to Zalo's opinion that (TUS) Mole is the most strategic/tactical scheme in the game, because it simply isn't.

How can I not prove my point that random luck plays a huge factor in the scheme? It's self-evident. BLATANTLY SELF-EVIDENT, even! I've already explained this, and if you cannot understand how and why random spawns and random crates aren't a big deal, then why should I bother?

As far as that old match goes... Yeah, there's a couple of errors but overall I didn't do anything irredeemably bad. I tried, but not like... laser-focus tried. The reason why I didn't really give a shit about the game was because I considered Mole a joke of a scheme. I knew even back then about dropping items standing on the edge of something going straight down but I thought that I had enough of a ledge for it to not drop but rather go down the incline and kill that last worm. It was a dumb misread that cost me the game, but I am sure that the thought that crossed my mind was probably something along the lines of: "thank god, I can go back to playing other shit now instead of being stuck in more mole matches!"

Anyway, I guess the tl;dr version of my entire piece goes like this:

1. There is nothing about (TUS) Mole that makes it more tactical/strategic than all other schemes

2. Random luck factors in a lot more than you seem to acknowledge, especially when the two competing players are fairly evenly matched.

[Zalo]

Looks like Gabriel just shredded the cheap veneer on your wall of text, and there is no substance behind it.

Just say that, because you look a lot sillier standing by your straw man argument.

I like your passion and your guile, but your heart is in the wrong place.  Mole shopper isn't even a top 3 strategic/tactical scheme.

So you attack others from behind their back? What a coward! I don't care what crap you type; you will never be man enough to challenge me in this scheme that you so call not top 3 strategic!

Well Said Magnus, That's the point that they just don't understand, and they will never be able to. We can win 1 out of 3 cave Intermediate rounds against Top Player, but there is not way they win at least 1 out of 10 Mole games against us, or against Darmin.

Hearing that Intermediate with island maps and random placements , or Elite, with 20 sec used primarly for the 2x reflex roping, are strategic based just makes me burt out laughing...

Walrus seems to have forgotten not killing a single worm in a game against me when we last played 2 years ago.

[Anubis]

Looks like Gabriel just shredded the cheap veneer on your wall of text, and there is no substance behind it.

Just say that, because you look a lot sillier standing by your straw man argument.

I like your passion and your guile, but your heart is in the wrong place.  Mole shopper isn't even a top 3 strategic/tactical scheme.

So you attack others from behind their back? What a coward! I don't care what crap you type; you will never be man enough to challenge me in this scheme that you so call not top 3 strategic!

Well Said Magnus, That's the point that they just don't understand, and they will never be able to. We can win 1 out of 3 cave Intermediate rounds against Top Player, but there is not way they win at least 1 out of 10 Mole games against us, or against Darmin.

Hearing that Intermediate with island maps and random placements , or Elite, with 20 sec used primarly for the 2x reflex roping, are strategic based just makes me burt out laughing...

Walrus seems to have forgotten not killing a single worm in a game against me when we last played 2 years ago.

So you are saying nobody would be able to beat you, in like ever? You are saying you are so good at Mole Shopper that nobody would be able to catch up if they tried?

[Sbaffo]

Anubis his ego is so inflated because he has never played any decent players as they all left this game, yet says he'd beat them in their schemes, hahahahah you've just gone full retarded zalo

[Zalo]

Why are you putting to my mouth words that I didn't say...?

I didn't say that nobody will ever beat me, Darmin is the closest to doing so but he plays for 6+ years. Magnus for 3-4 years played constantly with me. None of you will ever get close to what they know about the scheme. None of you will know 5% what it takes to defeat either them or me....

By saying "I won 3 Cups won in a row with 3 Golds, 32x playes per Cup & 100x tus games won in a row in the period of 14 months" I simply wanted you to come to the conclusion how far people like walrus, skunk, or you sbaffo are from defeating me. How far you are from defeating Magnus or Darmin doesn't lie far from it.

[Sensei]

Let's conclude this. It's getting out of hands.
There's bunch of ppl saying: mole is shit, mole is luck, mole is for noobs.

We need 1 volounteer that will practice mole few days and challenge Zalo.
It was 10 games right? 1 win = 40$.
Seems like a nice deal. And guy obviously wanna prove he's untouchable at this scheme atm.

If there's really no one to stand up and challenge him for that 1/10, maybe it's time to let him speak freely cause we're all looking like bunch of spineless cowards.

[Sbaffo]

The point is: who cares Zalo? Who does really cares, you named 3 player who don't even play that scheme, the only this you ever cared of is winning mole like it's a big thing. We got it, you're a good mole player, but what else have you achieved to talk like that? You see, mole is a free league scheme, and you achieved 100 straight wins, that's impressive, but mole is one out of many other schemes you can pick to play, gain points and finally qualify to POs. Now, how many POs have you won? 0? Ah, no wonder, you were too busy amusing your self with your impressive mole skillz that you forgot the point of the league.

Why are you putting to my mouth words that I didn't say...?

Looks like Gabriel just shredded the cheap veneer on your wall of text, and there is no substance behind it.

Just say that, because you look a lot sillier standing by your straw man argument.

I like your passion and your guile, but your heart is in the wrong place.  Mole shopper isn't even a top 3 strategic/tactical scheme.

So you attack others from behind their back? What a coward! I don't care what crap you type; you will never be man enough to challenge me in this scheme that you so call not top 3 strategic!

Well Said Magnus, That's the point that they just don't understand, and they will never be able to. We can win 1 out of 3 cave Intermediate rounds against Top Player, but there is not way they win at least 1 out of 10 Mole games against us, or against Darmin.

So you wanna go hard on me and walrus? On mole? Hahaha. Then let me ask you the same question: how many rope schemes can you beat me on? How many bngs can you win against walrus? Oh i can already tell the answer, but we don't care. Because we know you don't play these schemes, therefore there would be no challenge, and we don't need to go around saying "heHe LoOk at me im so Go0d c4n u beat me? XDXDXD". You know, i wasn't even mad about the mole thing in this topic, it's quite a good scheme, with whatever luck factor is it (i don't care), i've been also accepting the fact it is the most played scheme right now, because somehow it may keep this game alive. But your arrogance.. That's out any boundaries...You don't have to act like an autistic child just because you happened to be good in a scheme during a period where none even plays, you're not a god. Get your feet on the ground and behave n@#!!!, your god streak wouldn't have lasted a day if all the old school god wuz here

[Anubis]

Practise? It's literally T17 with moles, grab as many open spaces as possible, connect your stupid worms to move freely and block/move down enemy worms so they have to teleport to not drown/die. Be wary of air attacks and pray for good cr8 drops.

I am gonna ask HHC to do this, he probably enjoys T17.

[Zalo]

So you wanna go hard on me and walrus? On mole? Hahaha. Then let me ask you the same question: how many rope schemes can you beat me on? How many bngs can you win against walrus?

this quote summarises your monkey IQ ... my God....

Who on earth is saying that Rope schemes are the most strategic? who on earth is saying that? It's purely rope-reflex-based scheme. I never said it's easy to win against ropers or that it doesn't involve skill, you ape. I responded to him saying that it doesn't involve much strategy or tactics. So... If something doesn't require tactics or strategy and doesn't have rope in it, then according to Walrus somebody should win with me easily sooner or later. Funny how he says that, dying before he could kill any of my 4 worms. You are just afraid of being humiliated by the amount of strategy it involves. That's why you sit here instead of entering the game with me on the other side.

T17 is not even close to Mole. Nuclear test or Earthquake or Magic Bullet / Pigeon / Aqua Sheep is everything that decides about the result in the games in which people wait for sudden death, which is 40% of cases. You can manipulate with your luck and be extra careful, but you won't do much if you have nothing as counter-weapon for SD.

You need to understand that each time I made a mistake in Mole I prevented myself from making such a mistake next time. I learnt and learnt and learnt to prevent every possible scenarios. That makes a total of 1000+ scenarios for which I am ready, and hardly anything surprises me anymore in 98% of players I meet. That's the feature of tacticality, not lying far from Chess.

I will quote Piki from 2016 https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/off-topic/goodbye-mole-()-29225/msg244668/#msg244668

I used to hate mole, I thought it was a scheme that just contained luck as well. To be honest, with the amount of matches I had with Zalo, my perception totally changed. You just see in his game that he has an answer to (almost) any tactic, and any sort of lucky moves you have. Skunk3, Id definitely recommend you to play against a top player, to rethink about your opinion about this scheme when you have done that.

[Sbaffo]

So your opinions on mole relevance among other schemes are based exclusively on your personal experience (which is as mentioned by you 4 years of only mole), and i'm the stupid one? Aight you're right dude

You still keep making statements of your personal mole experience, which is basically as same as other tactical schemes. Every game can have hundreds of different scenarios, it's obvious,otherwise none would play this game anymore. Stop making it sound like it's something incredible. Until you play and beat any of the other top player schemes you have to shut your mouth

[TheWalrus]

Let's conclude this. It's getting out of hands.
There's bunch of ppl saying: mole is shit, mole is luck, mole is for noobs.

We need 1 volounteer that will practice mole few days and challenge Zalo.
It was 10 games right? 1 win = 40$.
Seems like a nice deal. And guy obviously wanna prove he's untouchable at this scheme atm.

If there's really no one to stand up and challenge him for that 1/10, maybe it's time to let him speak freely cause we're all looking like bunch of spineless cowards.

Don't have time for 10 games, all you sensei, you spineless coward!

If someone wins 1/10 it proves nothing.  If someone doesn't win 1/10 it proves nothing.

At most someone wins 40 dollars and drops a wall of text.

Me?  I'm tired of talking about mole, it's boring just analyzing it.

[TheKomodo]

After reading this, I am deeply disappointed in this community as a collective.

This quote sums it up all the ignorance here:

You still keep making statements of your personal mole experience, which is basically as same as other tactical schemes. Every game can have hundreds of different scenarios, it's obvious,otherwise none would play this game anymore. Stop making it sound like it's something incredible. Until you play and beat any of the other top player schemes you have to shut your mouth

This is basically saying, "We won't play your scheme until you play ours, and even if you do play ours we won't play yours because we're right and you're wrong."

Jesus, i've met some of my favourite people in life on this game but this is the most ignorant, selfish community i've ever been part of...

I find it hilarious, you all dissing Mole Shopper so much, yet NONE of you have actually played it enough to even understand what this guy is saying, you make assumptions based on your own expertise of the game as a whole, which, sorry to be the bearer of bad news, isn't enough, I don't care how good you are at any scheme or how much knowledge you have of the game as a whole.

This is how it is, Mole Shoppers won't play your schemes, you won't play Mole Shopper.

So why the f**k are you even arguing?

The funny thing is, and this is why I said this community reminds me of ISIS/Terrorists, and I got banned for it in the past, because the way your mind works, your inability to be convinced of another purpose in life than your own agenda, incapable of understanding the needs and desires of other people and learning/tolerating/accepting them.

Even i've changed my mind in this thread, I read his post carefully with no pre-made decision or hatred towards him or Mole Shopper. And HE made ME change my opinion of Mole Shopper.

The very 1st time i've ever saw this guy post, and he manages to do what pretty much NONE of you have ever been able to do in 7 years.

This community needs more people like Magnus, and less 1 track minded people like you guys who do nothing but ridicule, bully and act negative.

However...

Saying that, the sheer ignorance of Zalo:

I didn't say that nobody will ever beat me, Darmin is the closest to doing so but he plays for 6+ years. Magnus for 3-4 years played constantly with me. None of you will ever get close to what they know about the scheme. None of you will know 5% what it takes to defeat either them or me....

By saying "I won 3 Cups won in a row with 3 Golds, 32x playes per Cup & 100x tus games won in a row in the period of 14 months" I simply wanted you to come to the conclusion how far people like walrus, skunk, or you sbaffo are from defeating me. How far you are from defeating Magnus or Darmin doesn't lie far from it.

Yeah Zalo, my achievements in BnG far exceed yours in Mole Shopper, my stats are better than yours, in multiple leagues, I had more opponents for BnG than it seems you ever will have for Mole Shopper.

I know exactly where you are coming from, but even I realize that you and I only have such good statistics because literally NOBODY ELSE CARES!

We are not f**king special, we are simply human, we bleed and die like everyone else, Mole Shopper is not rocket science, it isn't even slightly complex to learn, it's VERY simple to learn ANY scheme on Worms Armageddon, we talk about "the most strategic scheme" when in actual fact, everything on Worms Armageddon is f**king simple in the grand scale of things...

If suddenly 100,000k people randomly selected from around the world were forced to play Mole Shopper, in the same sense they are forced to go to school sit, pay attention, learn.

I would bet my life after 5 years, you would struggle to remain at the top.

So you are saying nobody would be able to beat you, in like ever? You are saying you are so good at Mole Shopper that nobody would be able to catch up if they tried?

THIS is what pisses me off about this topic Zalo, it's your sheer delusions of grandeur, claiming nobody could ever be as good as you ever, claiming Mole Shopper as the greatest although you haven't even played all the schemes available.

Man, I fully understand I am widely regarded as the GOAT BnG player... But honestly, if Asians suddenly flooded this game, you would find people like Anubis for warmer, Mablak for TTRR, Zalo of Mole Shopper, myself for BnG, Volcom in Roper, we would be as common as black and white, perhaps even be exceeded easily.


Jesus people here are so unbelievably ignorant...

Sensei is the one who actually made the proposal that would end all this, but everybody is more interested in arguing, than actually solving the problem, ending the debate, but that's the problem LMAO, that's the kicker, nobody even cares or wants to care about Mole Shopper... I almost feel bad for Zalo, it's lonely at the top, believe me I know...

And sorry this post is a bit rough, i'm losing the patience to be bothered here...


To give you a little bit of an idea, this happened yesterday, I went out of my way to wait for Zalo to appear in AG yesterday, when he did I asked him to play some Mole Shoppers with the best player available in #AG right at the present time, do you know what he said lol...

"I just beat MyCy 7x in a row, no report anywhere"

I wanted to watch him play I don't care about statistics, I want to watch the guy who considers himself to be god at Mole Shopper, in action, so I can judge and assess for myself...

Instead he starts telling me "if you wanna see good league game there are replays... blah blah" I just logged back out at this point lol.

[Sbaffo]

After reading this, I am deeply disappointed in this community as a collective.

This quote sums it up all the ignorance here:

You still keep making statements of your personal mole experience, which is basically as same as other tactical schemes. Every game can have hundreds of different scenarios, it's obvious,otherwise none would play this game anymore. Stop making it sound like it's something incredible. Until you play and beat any of the other top player schemes you have to shut your mouth

This is basically saying, "We won't play your scheme until you play ours, and even if you do play ours we won't play yours because we're right and you're wrong."

Jesus, i've met some of my favourite people in life on this game but this is the most ignorant, selfish community i've ever been part of...

I find it hilarious, you all dissing Mole Shopper so much, yet NONE of you have actually played it enough to even understand what this guy is saying, you make assumptions based on your own expertise of the game as a whole, which, sorry to be the bearer of bad news, isn't enough, I don't care how good you are at any scheme or how much knowledge you have of the game as a whole.

This is how it is, Mole Shoppers won't play your schemes, you won't play Mole Shopper.

So why the f**k are you even arguing?

The funny thing is, and this is why I said this community reminds me of ISIS/Terrorists, and I got banned for it in the past, because the way your mind works, your inability to be convinced of another purpose in life than your own agenda, incapable of understanding the needs and desires of other people and learning/tolerating/accepting them.

Even i've changed my mind in this thread, I read his post carefully with no pre-made decision or hatred towards him or Mole Shopper. And HE made ME change my opinion of Mole Shopper.

The very 1st time i've ever saw this guy post, and he manages to do what pretty much NONE of you have ever been able to do in 7 years.

This community needs more people like Magnus, and less 1 track minded people like you guys who do nothing but ridicule, bully and act negative.

You got it all wrong pal, he's stated that he "can win 1 out of 3 cave Intermediate rounds against Top Player, but there is not way they win at least 1 out of 10 Mole games against us, or against Darmin" when i've never seen him actually playing intermediate that much, neither on TUS nor in NNN league, still he thinks he can make some assumptions like that just because he's good at his scheme. I didn't say that HE has to play the schemes i play, neither to beat these guys to prove his point. I got it, he is trying to make us understand that mole is a tactical scheme, and i said i've realized it already, but the way he's trying to demonstrate it is ridicolous.

[Zalo]

*blank post*