Wormnet moderation

[Zalo the moler]

Bad idea IMO, people who can't cope with a few no-no words on a computer screen are the ones who create a toxic environment is what we all should have learned these last few years. If you're gonna start banning people from playing WA because they said something whoever the moderator is finds offensive, I think we're gonna lose a lot of wormers, entirely possible I could be banned too, after 20 years of playing. It always begins with the magic words "racism", "homophobia", w/e stuff like that. Before you know it you get banned for "misgendering" some tranny.
Add the option to mute anyone you want in WormNet, problem solved IMO.

^ this guy right here! Perfectly said!

EDIT:

It's not a surprise that toxic people don't like censorship lol.

Komito, your toxicity literally made me quit WA.exe from 2018 to 2021. And yet you show your true colors here in this thread insulting people who have different opinion... Do you see the irony?

Was I toxic myself? Sure I was. I have no trouble admitting that. But can you just let people disagree with you at least one time without insulting them, Komito? Or is it too hard for you?

So, you support hate. Disgusting human being.

I'm glad that you stand against the hate speech FoxHound... *sigh*

[Kradie]

Freedom of speech is defined within a community/society. Freedom of speech in a country is different than WormNET. You must first define what your target community is about and help it to grow in that direction. You can't use your prescription for real life society for WormNET as well.

WormNET is about W:A and activity of W:A. Basically the community of W:A players who want to enjoy the game together. You have age range roughly 10 to 50.

- Does it help your community to talk about right/left political agendas? (in society: YES, in WormNET: NO)
- Does it help to talk about Hitler? (in society: YES, in WormNET: NO)
- Does it help to talk about religion? (in society: YES, in WormNET: NO)

People tend to leave your community when they don't like its atmosphere. It is not about growing a pair and being tough. It's not about ignoring what you don't like. TRUST ME! I've ran this show for 15+ years. People have left the community in front of my eyes. Many of those who left were not even the target of some beef. They just didn't like the atmosphere of people pulling each other's hair.

- DarkOne was one of them. He was a GEM! He said he got frustrated with certain behaviors and one day he was fed up and done.
- Peja left for a long long time. His quitting reasons had NOTHING to do with W:A itself but over some toxic discussions and me failing to realize absolute freedom of speech eventually contradicts itself. (yes TUS had a high degree of freedom of speech in the past)
- Gabriel left the game on and off. Luckily he's still with us, but look:
and these examples are known wormers. There are newcomers who won't bother and boy we have lots of cringe worthy beefs. WormNET moderation is a MUST and its sole purpose should be to keep a friendly atmosphere. We don't want to be an ancient mysterious game like Jumanji. We want new blood and a safe/cozy WormNET is the way to go.

p.s
Freedom of speech is like a farm. You have chicken, duck, geese, cows, donkeys, horses, pigs... and the farmer. They tolerate each other and the farm functions.
Absolute 100% freedom of speech is like introducing a few cobras in that farm. (The cobras will make all the animals stronger and they build character... oh and the farm produces twice as much.)

The topic freedom of speech is a very Important value to me and I can get very passionate about it. I applied my core principle of freedom to WormNET and not elsewhere and got carried away. WormNET is Indeed a place where all ages come and go. Kids and teens should not have to be targeted, drawn in, and see barrages of Inappropriate messages by their equal aged and older.

We are older, and perhaps a little wiser. That's why I'd like to propose an adult (unmoderated/unfiltered) channel on WormNET. Such a channel would be hidden by default in the Network settings. Those who would risk to open this channel would do it on their own volition. In general nothing is airtight Including parenting control. At least there would be a system in place.

Ultimately I agree that WormNET is not a place to discuss this and that, to have a behavioral Identity that could upset others

I do sympathize with those who have chosen to leave WA though. I myself have left groups and avoided people to spare my sanity. There is certain type of people you just want to avoid. Nobody asked you to stick around to endure these people's vanity. That is why I always stick to good people.

[Triad]

- Does it help your community to talk about right/left political agendas? (in society: YES, in WormNET: NO)
- Does it help to talk about Hitler? (in society: YES, in WormNET: NO)
- Does it help to talk about religion? (in society: YES, in WormNET: NO)

Absolutely. Not to mention, even if you want to talk about these topics with your fellow wormers, there's nothing stopping you from doing it elsewhere, like on a Discord server.

People tend to leave your community when they don't like its atmosphere. It is not about growing a pair and being tough. It's not about ignoring what you don't like. TRUST ME! I've ran this show for 15+ years. People have left the community in front of my eyes. Many of those who left were not even the target of some beef. They just didn't like the atmosphere of people pulling each other's hair.

100% truth! You can add me to that list as well. Before my return around December 2023, the last time I was properly active was in 2019. I quit back then because 1) A good portion of my wormer friends became inactive. 2) I had unpleasant experiences with some wormers, directly and indirectly.

You may call me a p*ssy or whatever for quitting for these reasons, but honestly, I have finite time in this world and near infinite ways I can spend that time, so why should I settle for a shittier option?

And you know what made me return? Friends! Adame, aka LeTotalKiller, messaged me around November and we had a bit of a chat after not speaking to each other for a year or two. We reminisced about the good times we had and decided to make a comeback. So yes, atmosphere is EVERYTHING! Moreso for a 25 years old game like W:A.

The topic freedom of speech is a very Important value to me and I can get very passionate about it.

I understand how you feel, Kradie. I live in a country where almost all political parties seem to adapt an authoritarian approach, whether they lean left or right, and I saw the negative consequences of it, so I also prefer freedom/liberty whenever possible. But considering WormNET, and how much people at top (MI, Deadcode, etc.) listen to community, I don't think we will ever have an oppresive police state in W:A. It is a valid concern, but I don't think no moderation is the way to go.

Unlike country politics where everyone abides to same laws, you can always create your own community. There is nothing stopping anyone to create their own TUS. Also, W:A already gives so much freedom. For example, replay system allows anyone to start their own competitive outlet. If I don't like the way leagues/cups/tournaments/challenges work on TUS, I can create my own (and I actually created a private UC league with a different ELO system).

[TheKomodo]

@Kradie

The most important thing I want to address first from Kradie:

You always have a choice, and each choice may have a repercussion to it which is something that YOU are responsible of. People will always have a choice. So if you start to restrict freedom of speech, movement, what have you, people would not want to face consequence.

I want YOU to at least have the chance to become educated in reality, at least if you had a chance, nobody can say "Well, he didn't have a chance did he?".

"You always have a choice, and each choice may have a repercussion to it which is something that YOU are responsible of"

To begin with, there is no "may", there are 100%, definitely, unequivocally repercussions to EVERYTHING. This is how the universe works, this is called "The Butterfly Effect / Chaos Theory". Every single action, thought, EVERYTHING you do, influences the entire planet. Every time new life arrives into existence on our planet, we are ALL responsible for how it turns out because of the butterfly effect.

EVERYTHING affects EVERYTHING ELSE... EVERYTHING influences EVERYTHING ELSE, directly and indirectly, but everything is connected one way or another.

People always have a choice, though this is the crucial thing you NEED to learn... Not with everything! Because the way the universe works... This is why people can overpower other people, 100 people shouting is louder than 1 person shouting. This is why we have competition, winners and losers.

I strongly believe, personally, there is no scientific evidence for this that I know of, yet... There is no such thing as individual free will, but we have mutual free will because we cannot even exist without essentially male and female reproductive systems, there is of course parthenogenesis however that still includes, yep, you guessed it, multiple things working together! This is mutual, not individual. Your whole body isn't even individual, you share it with other living beings.

Not to mention that:

For the most part, for "normal" behaviour, rape is not a choice, being murdered is not a choice, even being born is not a choice.

If you believe in freedom of speech, and call someone an idiot to their face, and even if you didn't "choose" it to happen, you will momentary have a very high possibility of being punched in the face and having your nose broke.



What Kradie doesn't realize, or seem to show an understanding of, is a massive simple truth of the reality that we all share and live in, is that there are limits to EVERYTHING...

He says "That's your opinion", but it's not an opinion, it's a UNIVERSAL FACT, I mean, try going up to a Lion, start shouting at him that he's an ugly useless rodent Kradie, see how far you get! The same thing applies to humans - THERE ARE LIMITS:

There is a limit to how much alcohol a person can consume before they become inebriated, pass out, or worse need to be hospitalized.

There is a limit to how much physical exercise you can do in any one session before you cannot take it anymore and collapse breathing wildly out of breath.

There is a limit to how long we live before we die, how much pain we can tolerate before we scream or cry, also how much pleasure we can tolerate before we try to wriggle free.

There is a limit to what we can say without it being negative to other people.

I'm glad MonkeyIsland summed it up nicely and made the point about atmosphere and yes I'm not perfect, nobody is, everybody gets into little beefs now and again which for the most part is fine... As the main thing I was going to say when I returned is that, yes, you can literally say anything you can think of but think of it this way:

You have inherent individual free speech while you do not inherently have mutual freedom of speech, which means, you can say what you want while you're alone, but when you are with other people you need to co-exist with them peacefully.

You need to abide by your parents rule when you live with them, you need to abide by your town/country rules when you live there. Freedom of speech isn't there so everyone can just say LITERALLY anything they want, it's there to support the notion that we ALL deserve a say and to try and live together peacefully.

The whole point of freedom of speech is so we can co-exist as peacefully as possible, NOT the opposite which Kradie believes for some weird reason, this is something I wish I could help him learn because I believe he'd be happier if he understood this.

It's when those beefs are prolonged or when a beef turns into full on bullying and hatred that's a problem. For the most part that stems from insecurity. As MonkeyIsland has said... I've got fed up myself a number of times and while I may only disappear for months instead of years it's still frustrating when you genuinely want to see people get along with each other.

I've known good friends to quit because they got fed up logging on and seeing petty fights, including petty fights I'm involved in!



@Zalo

Komito, your toxicity literally made me quit WA.exe from 2018 to 2021. And yet you show your true colors here in this thread insulting people who have different opinion... Do you see the irony?

See, that's something there, I still strongly believe I didn't do anything seriously wrong but make fun of the entire situation that you were in with Daina...

This actually bothered me a little bit because the irony was in you blaming me yet me being the only person who was actually defending you, I was the only one who was talking about Mole Shopper in a positive manner saying that Zalo had legit skills... Yet you blamed me alone for you wanting to leave because I made some jokes on stream...

There's a difference between just trying to have a laugh with people, and deliberately trying to hurt someones feelings.

Also, you brought that on yourself when you talked the talk but couldn't walk the walk Zalo, you said you could beat ANYONE if they trained for 2 weeks, then when Daina took the time to actually take on your bet, you cancelled it and that made a few people pretty angry.

I made fun of the situation, you took it personally.

That being said, I genuinely felt guilty and actually apologized to you because by nature I'm a bit of a class clown, always trying to do silly, stupid things to make people laugh and make light of situations... I grew up with a lot of suffering and having a very big sense of humour is a huge coping mechanism.

None of it was ever intended to genuinely make you feel bad and I'm sorry for that...

To this day, I still make fun of Mole Shopper but yet I still praise it, and I've praised you personally on stream highly as well.

But can you just let people disagree with you at least one time without insulting them, Komito? Or is it too hard for you?

I do not insult people every time they disagree with me LOL! It's strange to me that people can carry ONE example of negativity with them for so long, yet quickly forget about all the praise, positivity and time/help you offer/gave them. The only drama I saw between us was the whole Daina Mole Shopper thing, though as I said, you kind of brought that on yourself with the way you acted.

It sucks that you got so offended by that, it's one of these situations that's not even offensive, but rather embarassing when you're the one being made fun of and everyone is laughing at you, but you have no problem laughing at other people when they are the ones being singled out in an embarassing way. It's actually part of what makes it so funny, it's like some kind of ritual that most people go through, I've had it happen to me many times growing up, honestly, I've done some REALLY embarassing things that would make you look like a chad lmao.

I'm not going to deny, I'm not perfect, my life is a journey and I'm always trying to better myself, but sometimes yes someone says something that I find extremely toxic or full of lies and I feel the need to say something about it... Yes I've directly insulted people in the past if they've barked first.

I try my best not to directly insult people out of nowhere, at least not intentionally with the intention of being malicious. Usually them feeling insulted is due to the way I say things like:

"Don't act stupid" - This isn't me trying to insult them, it's me saying that the thing they did is literally stupid... Not that THEY are stupid, there's a difference, clever people can do stupid things and I do them all the time LOL!

Also, another huge part of why some people are on edge with me is because of how much I type, or how I never give up then they start using actual ad-hominems so then I retaliate with ad-hominems. Maybe I feel fine saying stuff like that to other people because I'm my own worst critique, anything anyone has ever said to me I've said worse to myself.

[Zalo the moler]

I confess my sins, and opt to be a better less toxic human being.

I also encourage people to disagree with me and have their own opinions, that I could learn from, as I am a mere human being, and I might be in the wrong, both in the present and in the future.

Btw, views of Kradie and mine are actually incompatible (my tests show me leaning 52% Left and 48% Right). But the fact is that he believes in the world where freedom of speech would help people. That is his view. Calling him "Toxic" or "Disgusting Human being" is the actual hate speech, that you guys want to ban people for.

We are in 2024. Not everybody needs to think the same. Please don't crucify people for not thinking the same.

[Kradie]

@Komodo

I said ''may'' because I was not talking about quantum, physics. If you said something inappropriate to someone they would have a choice to react to it. It is
entirely circumstantial. E.g: If you said something horrible to me, I would have a choice to respond or to Ignore. Not many people FEEL they have a choice because of circumstances they find themselves in. The people who LEFT the game out of their own volition. That was THEIR choice. This is something I can sympathize with. But if you start to add rules, you give people little choice but to comply because of herde mentality. Making a choice will become Impossible out of fear of being ostracized.

People always have a choice. I already know this.

Obviously you should not exercise and abuse freedom of speech publicly with animosity. You shouldn't even seek out the random guy and start fight with. I mean you technically can, but no one in their right state of mind would do that.

Animals does not possess reasoning skills as humans. This analogy is flawed and ridiculous.

These examples of yours are Insane though. Everyone knows there is a limit, but the choice will always be there no matter what. The bottle of vodka can be found at the liqour store if you so choose it. The gym around the corner will still be there if you choose to continue to push yourself. You assume too much.


We all know that good parents who has provided their kids with good guard rails for their kids, will behave decent in society. If you can respect and abide by your parents authority, you can do so in society. This is how you honor your parents. You do this by behaving decent to others. So this is nothing new to me Komodo. Not many people are raised properly, ergo their morals and behavior is Incompatible with a civilized society.

Freedom of Speech is not controlled speech. Just be rational and don't see out trouble.

[Kradie]

I AM HERE TO CLARIFY TO YOU DEAR READER

"If you support free speech, you need to understand that it will also involve hate speech".

I think it was necessary correction to my second post here in this topic.

[TheKomodo]

Calling him "Toxic" or "Disgusting Human being" is the actual hate speech, that you guys want to ban people for.

I didn't call Kradie a disgusting human being... Neither did I directly call him toxic here. I called everybody toxic lol.

I said, specifically:

It's not a surprise that toxic people don't like censorship lol.

Also, Zalo, don't worry about it, we're good now!

I also don't consider you toxic, at all.

But if you start to add rules, you give people little choice but to comply because of herde mentality. Making a choice will become Impossible out of fear of being ostracized.

Kradie, you seem to constantly be living in the "now", with no gratitude to the past and future.

Without rules, without guidance, without "standards" and "limits" we wouldn't even be sitting here having this conversation.

As a living being, alive, in this universe, we NEED rules, we NEED guidance, in order to learn how to survive and thrive together on this little blue ball called Earth.

If you don't give anyone any rules, emotions, experiences, and objectives to follow in life, they may feel like they never have any purpose.

Also - EVERYTHING IS A REMIX!

This is important because the only reason we know how to do ANYTHING, is due to the environment we exist in teaching us how to do everything we know how to do.

Saying that you give people little choice, it's the complete opposite! By adding rules, we now know what to do and don't do which gives us MORE choice! To either obey, or disobey, but either choice has consequences.

You really need to understand this more if you want to live a more fulfilling life, I believe.

Obviously you should not exercise and abuse freedom of speech publicly with animosity. You shouldn't even seek out the random guy and start fight with. I mean you technically can, but no one in their right state of mind would do that.

Exactly, even in your own words there is no such thing as freedom of speech because "no one in their right state of mind" would do that.

That is the point exactly! You wouldn't go up to someone you love and care about that you hate them and you're going to kill them.

This is why freedom of choice is an illusion, it's nice to know you CAN say anything you want, but that you have control over that power because you have to in order to co-exist, otherwise people won't ever help you, and you will die alone.

Animals does not possess reasoning skills as humans. This analogy is flawed and ridiculous.

Just because animals do not possess the same intelligence as humans, does not make the analogy flawed and ridiculous.

Extreme, yes, but ridiculous, no.

The point is that you know you wouldn't employ "freedom of speech" or even act without caution in the presence of a Lion. It's the same in real life with humans, you can sit there and talk about freedom of speech all you want, but I'm pretty sure we all know that deep down Kradie, you would not actually say what's on your mind in many situations out of survival instinct, this is something that we all share.

This alone is proof there is no such thing as freedom of speech, it's an illusion, like being "independent" lol.

[Triad]

I didn't call Kradie a disgusting human being...

I think he means FoxHound's message in this thread.

[Kradie]

If you think you have taught me something then you have sorely underestimated me.

Dinner with Komodo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwO0CDYxyxc

Kradie in a Komodo world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IyuK069I-w

[TheKomodo]

Kradie, everything you ever interact with teaches you something on some level.

It's just funny how you talk about limiting other peoples life with "rules" when your beliefs are more limited than most people I've seen here.

[Kradie]

Kradie, everything you ever interact with teaches you something on some level.

It's just funny how you talk about limiting other peoples life with "rules" when your beliefs are more limited than most people I've seen here.

I never expressed the desire to limit people. I am the most expressive person there is. I don't care what people think of me. If they like me then that's cool, if they don't then that's cool too.

We both have said our opinions here, that's enough. Your views are similar to mine anyway. It just happen I don't support choking speech.

We should have a poll here. Do you support wormnet moderation?
- Yes
- No
- Only filters
- Adult channel (AG is moderated).

[Zalo the moler]

It's just funny how you talk about limiting other peoples life with "rules" when your beliefs are more limited than most people I've seen here.

or... maybe you just assume the worst in people?

[TheKomodo]

or... maybe you just assume the worst in people?

Nah not really, these things are based on experience knowing Kradie for a long time and seeing how he thinks in general. Also note that I did not say it's bad to have more limited beliefs. This seems to happen a lot around here, people making assumptions that what is being said is bad.

Sometimes limits are very positive and you can gain a lot from them.

For example, he looks at using parachute in Roper as "like using crutches" that we are inferior for using parachute. Though the funny thing is by using a parachute you actually increase the human skill cap meaning we can push ourselves faster, harder, more consistently. Similar to how professional racing drivers use safety features like seat belts, roll cages and in some cases like drag racing, literal parachutes lol!

It's good to have variety, while I sit here talking about rules etc, It is in the sense that also advocate free thinking, to push your own barriers and limits as much as possible.

The fact that you rope without any safety measures, like climbing up a mountain without ropes and harnasses, puts you at greater risk, and this awareness of risk makes you more careful and cautious. To many this is boring... But not to all! That's why it's variety!

Kradie has a lot of these beliefs, that are ironic and contradictive to his very reasoning for believing in them. All I've ever tried to do is show him a more powerful perspective that could elevate his own skills and success in life.

[Kradie]

Nah not really, these things are based on experience knowing Kradie for a long time and seeing how he thinks in general. Also note that I did not say it's bad to have more limited beliefs. This seems to happen a lot around here, people making assumptions that what is being said is bad.

Sometimes limits are very positive and you can gain a lot from them.

For example, he looks at using parachute in Roper as "like using crutches" that we are inferior for using parachute. Though the funny thing is by using a parachute you actually increase the human skill cap meaning we can push ourselves faster, harder, more consistently. Similar to how professional racing drivers use safety features like seat belts, roll cages and in some cases like drag racing, literal parachutes lol!

It's good to have variety, while I sit here talking about rules etc, It is in the sense that also advocate free thinking, to push your own barriers and limits as much as possible.

The fact that you rope without any safety measures, like climbing up a mountain without ropes and harnasses, puts you at greater risk, and this awareness of risk makes you more careful and cautious. To many this is boring... But not to all! That's why it's variety!

Kradie has a lot of these beliefs, that are ironic and contradictive to his very reasoning for believing in them. All I've ever tried to do is show him a more powerful perspective that could elevate his own skills and success in life.

You don't know me though. A couple of weeks ago I remember you came to my game for the first time out of your own volition. You said I was much more ''nicer'' here compared to the forums. A forum is a place where people engage in various of topics that Interest them. You have obviously painted Inaccurate depiction of me while also likely received words from others which are one sided. In reality, you don't know ''me''. You never hung with me. Because you assume the worst of people with the Intel you see. But not everything is as it seems. I think I may not be the only one who you paint Inaccurately in public.

Let me tell you what I think of YOU based on what I have observed only here on the forums. You have a massive ego that fueled by self-righteousness. You judge and berate people if they differ with you. You come across as this white knight on a horse waving the sword of truth. You overwhelm people with sermons and obvious speeches. Nobody likes that.

Perhaps what I said is just ''opinion''. Perhaps someone will say otherwise. But remember, this is what I have observed here on these forums.

And I can see you can't let go this whole parachute discussion. Parachute is a clutch, it is a baby's diaper. You're a grown man, you can walk without it and not have the fear to fall on your ass.

Show me a more powerful perspective? You assume I don't know them? Some of your post elsewhere makes sense to me. Sometime you should accept that other people have a different world view than your own.

What happened to agree to disagree? It is very Important to understand all sides if you don't agree.

I believe in free speech, you do not.