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Author Topic: ESL: Inception. New league!  (Read 1437 times)

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Offline SIBASA

ESL: Inception. New league!
« on: May 10, 2022, 09:22 PM »
ESL: Inception.

Hello everyone!

In the past few years, TUS has been intermittently bringing up and arguing about the schemes that people want to see in existing leagues, or about creating separate leagues for narrowly focused, completely new, or undeservedly forgotten schemes.

I personally have always supported any action that encourages the development and popularization of schemes, especially if they are really unique, interesting or just funny, but as a rule, most of these conversations pass by the main mass of people and are gradually forgotten about.

I have no complaints against the TUS administration about its inaction on creating new leagues, as I understand that there are high risks that this will be a failed project with little player activity, in short, no prospects for development or at least stability .

In this regard, I have been nurturing the idea of creating a new league for a long time, which will be a launching pad and a testing ground for a wide variety of schemes, which in the future will have the hope of being included in the official TUS league (most likely, the creation of a new league, in which schemes that have passed practical selection in our ESL will be included.)

ESL - Experimental Schemes League

The topic in which you are reading this now is in the newly created forum board, which was kindly provided by the WoSC community for this purpose, in particular special thanks to FoxHound, who will also take part in the development of this league, as he has rich experience and good knowledge in schemes.

Very soon we will start publishing detailed information on this forum board, and then the league will begin to function, but for now I want to call on everyone who is not indifferent to the development of new schemes, the rehabilitation of forgotten schemes, and also in the hope of the future formation of a new TUS league - express your opinions, perhaps you will bring a new idea that will be implemented within the ESL.


Offline FoxHound

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Re: ESL: Inception. New league!
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2022, 12:08 AM »
After this discussuion about next TRL scheme, I felt that many, or at least enough people (I hope) are interested in a league for alternative schemes. In my opinion, the activity is not very high and it is time for changes. I would enjoy to see more people contributing to the ascension of alternative schemes that have potential for more online play and competitive scene. Maybe if a scheme becomes popular, the activity will grow more with a new thing everybody is playing.

So, I would enjoy to see the participation of more people if possible on this task. Maybe Lupastic could help organizing the events, Echiko could make some art for the events and the schemes (maybe the art becomes official scheme icons, heh?).

Scheme makers that recently shown their faces around the community since I became active again:

TheMadCharles, STRGRN, SIBASA, pavlepavle, Krivoy/Yagelon, sbs, Kradie, czlowiek-kredens, SiD, lacoste, Dario, KRD, Xrayez, Zalo, Crespo, Xankriegor, Cueshark, Run, Lex, Bloopy, Deadcode, Sensei, TBikelis, Pac-Man, DENnis, Philie, Peja, CAK-RULES, RichUK, Komito (TheKomodo), iClown, Clamp, Swordfish, goom, vaguener2, Kaleu, Buick, OutofOrder (Auto), chaos, Magnus (FMA), MEDVED (EvilPunk), Memox, DarkOne, NAiL, Squirminator2k, StepS, HHC (BigBilly), DreamTrance, Felo, Twyrfher, Corujão, Masta, Lupastic, xyz, Echiko and others I may have forgotten. Yes, all these people are scheme makers, they created schemes for the community.

I would apreciate any opinion or participation on this idea, or about the schemes being decided. We could make a poll like TRL one, but only with underground schemes or underated like DumbBongChow used to say, to be something as democratic as possible. Other people that are not yet scheme makers or at least are interested on different gameplay styles are also invited to opine. Ledan is someone I know is interested in different schemes and many others around. Komito, Mablak and Chicken23 could stream the events if they want to as well. We should unite the community and not divide it now. Map makers that contributed to several schemes are also welcome to participate.

There are some very good map makers that have shown their faces recently here as well (specially Danelius, someone I played a lot with). Maps are very important for the schemes, even if the scheme usually uses randomly-generated ones. Other creative people like those behind the softwares of this game, specially Nizikawa (and LEGi0N too), Terrain makers such as King-Gizzard, JSG, Conejo, Ducky, Korydex, Placebo_yue, the speedrunners like Sycotropic, RuffledBricks and other cool guys from the community such as Cgar, Mega`Adnan, TobyTrigger, Schaf are also invited to opine here. Balee is a person who knows a lot about schemes too (besides Run, Lex, KRD, Bloopy, sbs etc). Competitive players prepare yourselves!

And I'd like to tribute all the countless other scheme makers (DBC and oinky where are you?), map makers (FFie?), developers (CyberShadow come back to WA!), WKB editors (where are you Explorer09?) etc that are not active, but have a legacy in this community that we are experiencing today. We are finally trying to make Experimental Schemes League happen!

And by the way... I already have some schemes to suggest to debut ESL!

And thanks to SIBASA for the atitude, the idea and all of this! I loved the image you made!
AND also MonkeyIsland, of course! The god of TUS.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 12:46 AM by FoxHound »
I doubt you see this link moving below (you will have to zoom in. If you click at it, you will have maden the impossible):
'

Offline Lupastic

Re: ESL: Inception. New league!
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2022, 12:26 AM »
I'd gladly participate in this if it kicks off. But only as a consumer (player) not sure I could add too much about schemes or help with modding :D Echiko knows many schemes though, in fact she showed me most of them that we played - unique schemes like: pool (biliard), pigeon hunter, basketball, fort architect, etc. She even made more custom maps for some of these, her pool maps were really good. In the last year we tried and looked up every scheme that possibly exists in this game although I'm not sure in what kind of system you would sort those dozens and dozens of very rare schemes into a different league but.. would be looking forward to this (: Even if it would have only a small base of players.
If Echiko has free time, she would be a better help.
And I also dont think that monkeyisland would approve this, we didn't even succeed of trying to ask to separate tower race from big rr and mine madness from bow and arrows :D And that was a much simpler request.

But GL anyway c:

Offline Echiko

Re: ESL: Inception. New league!
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2022, 07:07 AM »
Btw I think that rules have to be written well to avoid misunderstanding regarding this schemes... This requires a bit of work for some schemes like Fort Architects!
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Offline Kradie

Re: ESL: Inception. New league!
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2022, 07:47 AM »
The problem that FoxHound and WoSC have in my opinion, is that they can suppress and overshadow scheme creators and their schemes that could have potential to be good. How exactly? To my experience and observation, they often refer to the past with ''Source material'' or some vague tale of proof. Materials and tales by some forgotten players who probably moved on with their lives. These actions by Fox and Friends can be both insightful, honorable, but also damaging to new schemes (without Intent I would assume). How exactly? It could undermine the author and their new schemes that borrows elements of past schemes without knowing anything about prior concepts. Ultimately ''new'' schemes that may or may not be based could struggle to flourish and reach its full potential.

This is Worms Armageddon, a turn based artillery game, that has survived over 20 years thanks to the community. But that doesn't mean everybody has a degree in History of Schemes nor should they. There will always be new ''Game modes'' as I like to call them. Just like there will always be another FPS, RPG and Racing games.

Rocket League is a good example I think, it is football with vehicles. I am sure this concept is nothing new, but Rocket League did it right and got it popular. That is what new game modes for WA is about. But should we Ignore and neglect past concept? No of course not. What I'm trying to say is, It isn't always necessary to point out adamantly that this idea or scheme in the past was already made.

Unfortunately, I think if we are to progress, we must set aside our indifference, bias, ego, and, nepotism. And proceed with an Impartial mind.
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Offline FoxHound

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Re: ESL: Inception. New league!
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2022, 03:46 PM »
Kradie, first of all remove the idea of "& friends". I do this, I know sometimes it is annoying, but DBC, oinky, SIBASA, Fighter and many other scheme makers don't do this. Even the elders of the game don't care so much about this, as myself. However, you need to know that WA community is not only TUS. You cannot ignore the history of this game, therefore you cannot ignore WMDB. You can be a "TUS man" or whatever you consider yourself, but you cannot ignore the history. You should actually read some books of history, otherwise you wouldn't be against vaccines or support neofascist politicians. The only person similar to me on this regard is sbs, who does know a lot about schemes, probably more than me. And sbs know WMDB better than 98% of players here. And there, on WMDB, you can find many comments of people saying a scheme already exists. You might think I'm an idiot to say a scheme already exists, but that's only because it didn't happen with you yet. That's why books have references, that's why bibliography exists. The source, the research is important. If you actually had more notion about what society is, you wouldn't be so selfish, you wouldn't be so egocentric (yes, take a look on your ego first before talking about this), you would care more about the work of other people, you would have more empathy. And wouldn't have this thoughts from extreme right-wing which are very individualistics, are the very essence of capitalism. Individual first, the others don't metter.

I may stop being so annoying regarding my behavior, but I'll not stop giving importance to the history. People can copy any scheme they want, history will know the truth, that's what I have to say. So what I think is that not referencing other people you inspired is ok, but the truth will remain and will show the sad side of that person.

There is a book called "The Life of Pi" that received a movie that was apreciated by the public, but the history is almost the same as one written by a brazilian writer (Moacyr Scliar) that wrote it because of our dictatorship at the time. The other guy said that he made a better book with that idea, but in fact the brazilian is well known by many people that read a lot and his book "Max e os Felinos" is one of his great works. He is not worse than the other guy for this. The other guy will keep copying masterpieces not known by the major public and will earn a lot of money. History knows that the brazilian is a unique writer. Thomas Edson and Tesla were very important people on our history, but we know now who was the real genius and great human being and who was the guy that was important, but not so great as human being. That's what I think. I'm not saying that is wrong getting an idea and transforming in something more successful, the idea of the brazilian guy reached even more people now, that's what really matters. So I actually don't care so much if people copy my schemes or from other people, I just think that the person could have tributed the shoulders of the giants that made the idea become what it is, and not ignore that and pretend that the idea came 100% from his/her mind, as if the person were a real genius. Plagiarism exists, and it is important to care about those things. I am aware that I'm being a bit annoying going too over sometimes, I'll try to get better on this.

By the way, sorry if I said that something you didn't like before, I like many ideas you have, and many are original in fact. I also like that you are kind with newbies. I just think that many of your ideas could be much better if you put more effort on them, and I agree that many of your schemes probably took some time to develop, your maps are a bit similar to my maps, they are mostly the structure, functional, prototypes. So I'm not that different than you as a scheme maker. I promise my personal opinion will not impact much the decisions, I was thinking about choosing Speed Mole as one of the first possible schemes to highlight, since Zalo and others liked it. It seems a funny scheme indeed and it is original.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 03:56 PM by FoxHound »
I doubt you see this link moving below (you will have to zoom in. If you click at it, you will have maden the impossible):
'

Offline Kradie

Re: ESL: Inception. New league!
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2022, 04:47 PM »
Kradie, first of all remove the idea of "& friends". I do this, I know sometimes it is annoying, but DBC, oinky, SIBASA, Fighter and many other scheme makers don't do this. Even the elders of the game don't care so much about this, as myself. However, you need to know that WA community is not only TUS. You cannot ignore the history of this game, therefore you cannot ignore WMDB. You can be a "TUS man" or whatever you consider yourself, but you cannot ignore the history. You should actually read some books of history, otherwise you wouldn't be against vaccines or support neofascist politicians. The only person similar to me on this regard is sbs, who does know a lot about schemes, probably more than me. And sbs know WMDB better than 98% of players here. And there, on WMDB, you can find many comments of people saying a scheme already exists. You might think I'm an idiot to say a scheme already exists, but that's only because it didn't happen with you yet. That's why books have references, that's why bibliography exists. The source, the research is important. If you actually had more notion about what society is, you wouldn't be so selfish, you wouldn't be so egocentric (yes, take a look on your ego first before talking about this), you would care more about the work of other people, you would have more empathy. And wouldn't have this thoughts from extreme right-wing which are very individualistics, are the very essence of capitalism. Individual first, the others don't metter.

I may stop being so annoying regarding my behavior, but I'll not stop giving importance to the history. People can copy any scheme they want, history will know the truth, that's what I have to say. So what I think is that not referencing other people you inspired is ok, but the truth will remain and will show the sad side of that person.

There is a book called "The Life of Pi" that received a movie that was apreciated by the public, but the history is almost the same as one written by a brazilian writer (Moacyr Scliar) that wrote it because of our dictatorship at the time. The other guy said that he made a better book with that idea, but in fact the brazilian is well known by many people that read a lot and his book "Max e os Felinos" is one of his great works. He is not worse than the other guy for this. The other guy will keep copying masterpieces not known by the major public and will earn a lot of money. History knows that the brazilian is a unique writer. Thomas Edson and Tesla were very important people on our history, but we know now who was the real genius and great human being and who was the guy that was important, but not so great as human being. That's what I think. I'm not saying that is wrong getting an idea and transforming in something more successful, the idea of the brazilian guy reached even more people now, that's what really matters. So I actually don't care so much if people copy my schemes or from other people, I just think that the person could have tributed the shoulders of the giants that made the idea become what it is, and not ignore that and pretend that the idea came 100% from his/her mind, as if the person were a real genius. Plagiarism exists, and it is important to care about those things. I am aware that I'm being a bit annoying going too over sometimes, I'll try to get better on this.

By the way, sorry if I said that something you didn't like before, I like many ideas you have, and many are original in fact. I also like that you are kind with newbies. I just think that many of your ideas could be much better if you put more effort on them, and I agree that many of your schemes probably took some time to develop, your maps are a bit similar to my maps, they are mostly the structure, functional, prototypes. So I'm not that different than you as a scheme maker. I promise my personal opinion will not impact much the decisions, I was thinking about choosing Speed Mole as one of the first possible schemes to highlight, since Zalo and others liked it. It seems a funny scheme indeed and it is original.

I think it is very unfortunate you draw politics and real world issue into this discussion. I do not relate to any of the extreme accusation provided by you and your lack of understanding of this world. But so be it, if characterization of others is a necessity of yours to make a point, even extreme ones, then allow me to Illuminate. I am not extreme right winger, I am not responsible for the insidious growing censorship that plagues the Internet, alongside with fascism and the police state enforced by far left extremists. I am a conservative who that appreciate freedom, and Christian values because western society is built on it. But alas the left consistently tries to tear it down in favor of secularism, neo-feudalism and pod-like life which is something by the way we live in. I am person who appreciates facts because facts does not care about your feelings which is something the left does not care for. It is only feelings over facts, and this is a reason why our society a cesspool of  mostly emotional unstable people who bicker over trivial things online such as Twitter.

I am still against vaccines, and I am so beyond glad I wasn't gullible to take that poison. I can provide walls of texts and links for you but I guess this is not the time and place for that, but you do like drawing parallels with real issues and persons you deal with.

I like the fact you are big advocate of truth as am I. But the thing that rubs me the wrong way FoxHound, is that you have slithered your way into an hierarchy role and inserted yourself as arbiter who hands out absolute lectures and truth. Yes, I am sure what you say in regards to the origin of this scheme and that scheme holds merits, but sometime you Intentionally become annoying, preachy, condescending and undermine potential. I am certain there are better solution to approach the truth on.

Speed Mole is something I decided to make because I have always found regular mole to be too slow and boring for my taste, and I told Pinkman I would try Impress him with a new and exciting version of mole but I guess it wasn't that much of wow factor for him anyway.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2022, 04:54 PM by Kradie »
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Offline SIBASA

Re: ESL: Inception. New league!
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2022, 10:35 PM »
Friends, thank you for expressing your opinion about the future league, but please do not create a negative atmosphere.

I understand the concern and suggestion that in the Experimental Scheme League, my opinion, Foxhound's opinion, or someone else's opinion will take precedence and dominance over the selection of schemes played, BUT this is not the case - I just took the initiative to initially coordinate the league without prejudice to anyone. Everything will be as fair as possible, believe me.

Regarding the choice of a future scheme - soon I will create an appropriate topic in this forum board, in which anyone can propose a scheme - this will be the first stage in the formation of a list of candidate schemes.

Offline TheKaren

Re: ESL: Inception. New league!
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2022, 11:47 AM »
Great idea, but that's what TRL already is.

I believe MonkeyIsland is going to try the League system proposed by M3ntal which M3ntal and I discussed a while back... Hopefully.

If so, it would render your league obsolete because it would give you pretty much everything you want anyway.

Offline MonkeyIsland

Re: ESL: Inception. New league!
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2022, 12:10 PM »
I believe MonkeyIsland is going to try the League system proposed by M3ntal which M3ntal and I discussed a while back... Hopefully.

That's correct but there's a time gap until it's ready.
Due to massive misunderstandings: MonkeyIsland refers to an island not a monkey. I would be a monkey, if my name was IslandMonkey meaning a monkey who is or lives on an island. MonkeyIsland is an island which is related to monkeys. Also there's been a legend around saying MonkeyIsland is a game. So please, think of me as an island or a game.

Offline SIBASA

Re: ESL: Inception. New league!
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2022, 05:52 PM »
Great idea, but that's what TRL already is.

I believe MonkeyIsland is going to try the League system proposed by M3ntal which M3ntal and I discussed a while back... Hopefully.

If so, it would render your league obsolete because it would give you pretty much everything you want anyway.
That's correct but there's a time gap until it's ready.

As I said in the first post - ESL will be designed to be a testing ground for schemes, and then we can present tested schemes in practice and put them to a vote in the future league that you mentioned.

Perhaps the new official league you're talking about will completely overshadow this one, but it's also possible that the ESL will be an auxiliary tool for it.

In any case, I will be happy with any turn of events, the main thing is that at least something starts to move.

Offline Big Billy

Re: ESL: Inception. New league!
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2022, 06:27 PM »
I really like the idea of an Experimental Scheme League!
I dont think that I can help with organzing things because I just don't have the time for that latly. But I would be glad to contribute to it by map making or designing stuff for the league (when my time allows it ofc).

It's the great thing about Worms Armageddon, that you can become so creative with the schemes.
That's one of the main reason of this game/community that catched me to it back then. The creativity of all the folks, trying to invent new ways of playing that one game, that just started with a strategic round-based system. And now RealTime and other Mods can bring so much more to it.
I'm exited to see the new schemes. And since it seems that people really like to bring life back into the comunity (like mentionings of starting Wormolympics again), I'm start thinking about new schemes again.

HHC (BigBilly)
And by the way: I'm just BigBilly ;)

Offline FoxHound

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Re: ESL: Inception. New league!
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2022, 10:32 PM »
Quote
And by the way: I'm just BigBilly ;)

And Here He, BigBilly, Comes... From an Aerial comment.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2022, 10:34 PM by FoxHound »
I doubt you see this link moving below (you will have to zoom in. If you click at it, you will have maden the impossible):
'

Offline Kradie

Re: ESL: Inception. New league!
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2022, 07:37 AM »
The Rotation League, may or may not have been established with the sole purpose of giving new game modes a chance because new game modes are usually towered around by your usual schemes. These schemes are normally Shopper, Intermediate and Mole, so if you are to add a new mode completely different, the chances of a new scheme to rise is fairly minimal. That is why I support ESL/NSL, to test and play new, unique and also fun schemes.
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