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TheKomodo:
Nice to see KRD doing TUS BnG! 8)

[NogardDerNaerok] I really, really hated how BnG became such a notchfest.
[NogardDerNaerok] On the flat maps.
[NogardDerNaerok] But then I hated it even more than no league could figure out that all they needed to fix it was to not allow the flat maps.

That's funny because the same shots work on any style of map lol. I've thought about this a lot, obviously who would have guessed lol.

As in, what you call a "notchfest" will happen on any kind of BnG map because it's the player you're up against that does it, not the map.

(You've seen my shot on my Twitch channel right? When someone follows?)

Watch at 3:17 - Apparently this forum doesn't work with timecode urls from YT:



That's BnG in an elite map, that one was counted out, that's what notchers can do on the maps you think are more against it lol.

No map is entirely flat because every map adapts as the match goes on.

I've seen maps like this become flat within 10 minutes depending how accurate players are and where they hide.

I've seen -forest maps which you consider flat ending up with massive differences in height by the end of the match.

It's possible to make good BnG maps with any terrain, the main reason -forest became so popular is because it's the easiest and fastest to make a BnG map with good hides on both sides. Many of the other terrains need more tweaking, or more luck with reseeding.

I'm surprised to hear that from KRD though, the physics of BnG doesn't change on different map types, people who calculate their shots with rulers and counting out notches will still do the exact same thing on other maps, and they have!

In fact, you'd be at an even larger disadavantage against those players on this map specifically because it's more unfamiliar to you playing with instinct, as opposed to them, who from the very start know where to teleport to hit wherever you are.

Unless, you're at the level of BnG that exceeds what's possible with players who can't play instinctually at all and rely on "notching/counting/math".

It's also smoother, which makes it more predictable to play on as regards to bounces banks and transfers. That's why -forest is a more popular choice as it's more challenging to play on for TUS rules where you can't expect people to play a2b style.

You can also just test this for yourself it only takes 5-10 minutes playing a few games offline with sdet on to realize, if you're accurate enough with rollers.

There's just more jagged parts and pixels on grassy terrains, especially -forest.

Fruit is considered the 2nd most popular as well, I guess because it has those rough green top parts of the fruit which are good for cover and make it more challenging to bounce on, and like -forest it has a really good object spread to produce nice maps with little effort, with a flat surface or very squiggly surface.

KoreanRedDragon:
Oh, I didn't really mean the top 1% of the top 1% of BnG players who can just notch any shot on any map there; those deserve to win everything anyway, they've put in the effort! My issue isn't even with notching play styles winning more often than they "should" or anything like that, it's just the lack of variety when the game is played that way by players who know only a few of the shots, and only ever go for those. And then the obvious counter is to try and roller them from insanely tight hides, knowing their attempts at the notched shots aren't going to dig to you. Just makes it so every league BnG I watch plays out the same way. Meh.

Sure, playing on maps that are squiggly and have relevant height differences and lots of different types of hides (some with overhangs above them) at the start of the match already isn't perfect in every way either. Sometimes you do run out of hides, but I'm totally okay with that being an option. And you're right, any type of map develops over the course of a match too, including in terms of height differences. Still, it's just really obvious to me that literally all of the common complaints regarding the scheme are at least partially resolved by playing on these (OBJECTIVELY, FITE ME) more interesting maps. They have more room to develop into more different endgames, and the early push gambles feel more strategic on them because unlike on the flat -Forest maps, at least you often get the choice between hides that are more or less vulnerable to pushing. Again, not perfect. But I think genuinely an improvement, and that's the thing that makes me sad, so many other people who would potentially be interested in really getting into the scheme... just not really seeing it. And then choosing instead not to get into BnG at all. Agh.

TheKomodo:

--- Quote from: KoreanRedDragon on February 09, 2024, 01:54 AM ---Just makes it so every league BnG I watch plays out the same way. Meh.

--- End quote ---

Can you elaborate on this? Can you give me specific examples?



--- Quote from: KoreanRedDragon on February 09, 2024, 01:54 AM ---Still, it's just really obvious to me that literally all of the common complaints regarding the scheme are at least partially resolved by playing on these (OBJECTIVELY, FITE ME) more interesting maps.

--- End quote ---

Well, that's specifically why I avoid the kind of maps you play because to me they are too easy to win from a strictly playing to win perspective.

Though, what's more interesting is definitely subjective to each person and you know it! :D


--- Quote from: KoreanRedDragon on February 09, 2024, 01:54 AM ---They have more room to develop into more different endgames, and the early push gambles feel more strategic on them because unlike on the flat -Forest maps, at least you often get the choice between hides that are more or less vulnerable to pushing. Again, not perfect. But I think genuinely an improvement, and that's the thing that makes me sad, so many other people who would potentially be interested in really getting into the scheme... just not really seeing it. And then choosing not to get into BnG. Agh.

--- End quote ---

I mean, they literally don't when you delete 20% of the map underneath lol. :P

It also really does depend who you're playing against though.

The better player you play against, there's no such thing as an endgame because the game would be over within 10-15 minutes max.

The point I'm trying to make anyway, BnG is kind of like high school, there are different groups, notchers, tricksters, league players, casuals, hardcore ftw, forced.

Forced means they only play it if someone else picks it.

Anyway, depending on who you play is the kind of experience you'll get, regardless of what map you play. You could play on cavern and probably get the same thing lol.

You put too much blame on maps, you always have, when all along it's always been the type of player not the type of map.

TheWalrus:
theres not many people that complain about the nature of BnG, just those that dislike the scheme

KRD stuck in 2011 I think lol, which i can understand

No one really notches anymore, at least no active players I know of

KoreanRedDragon:
Well yeah, 'cause everyone who would actually play BnG to win has stopped playing it, for exactly these reasons, i.e. because they thought the scheme didn't really have the potential for true competitive play. But I maintain that they're wrong to think so! If that's a 2011 world view, it's because nothing any league has tried since then has helped reverse the scheme being seen in this way, as essentially unworthy of playing unless it's among friends, all cuddly wuddly.

But so anyway, now instead we just have us old farts enjoying gentlemanly BnG where we specifically avoid going for the shot we think is most likely to hit like 80% of the time, with maaaybe two or three exceptions at any one time of players who do play to win, then get shit for it behind their backs, instead of respect for taking the game seriously like they would with every other scheme. That's the thing that ultimately needs fixing, but of course it's hard because the mentality is so deeply ingrained.

I have kinda given up on these discussions regarding BnG in particular, though, to be frank. I'll still happily explain my views when people go out of their way to ask me, but it's been basically 10 years now since I've recognised that proselytising my ideas for how to fix the scheme isn't ever going to change enough minds to have any real, lasting effect. Maybe once we start looking into new ways for the game to generate random maps, shape and size wise. Or in terms of object seeding as well, hmmm. Maybe that's when it'll become easier to see just how much effect map choice has on BnG, but again, clearly the divide between how I see this and how most of you guys do is still significant. That's no reason not to get some games in, though!

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