Leagues > Leagues
Game #241063, reported by flashR
flashR:
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 11, 2024, 11:08 PM ---I did use wkRemapKeys there, but part of the point of that review is to show the keyboards capabilities.
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Where? I've watched almost full video and didn't see this.
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 11, 2024, 11:08 PM ---I use WASD for roping, and it doesn't matter if I use wkRemapKeys or do it with the Wootility software, the end result is the same.
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WASD doesn't matter. I didn't talk about WASD at all. In this discussion the only space keys does matter in the context of unnatural fast tapping.
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 11, 2024, 11:08 PM ---Actuation point is something you can mod with any keyboard by putting o-rings or paper etc underneath the key so that the actuation point is shorter meaning you can twitch faster.
That's what Anubis done back in the day, that's what Mablak does as well puts little paper balls under his keycaps.
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Actuation point on normal keyboards doesn't make as much sense as it does on keyboards with rapid trigger. I have some O-rings and I've tried it on my mechanical keyboard. I barely felt any difference. The only noise from the keys has decreased a little, but even then it felt more like a placebo. But I couldn’t get used to this actuation point of the red switches and I have switched back to my old membrane keyboard.
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 11, 2024, 11:08 PM ---The rapid trigger doesn't make your taps faster, it makes the window of error larger. This works in harmony with a low actuation point.
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Really? Was it true even when you created a macro for 2 actuation points for the one key? In fact, you put 2 spacebar activations on the one button.
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 11, 2024, 11:08 PM ---The other thing, which you call "macros" which are not actually macros is called "Dynamic Keystroke".
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I don't want to go deep into theory. Who cares how it's called if the result is almost the same? Anyway these macros (or not macros, who cares?) gives big advantage over an other players who does not use it.
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 11, 2024, 11:08 PM ---When you activate a macro, it does multiple things with 1 signal.
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Yes. And you have set 2 actions to one key by using different trigger points. It's almost the same as a macro, but much more advanced. If we call a macro is a cheat, then why is an "advanced" macro not a cheat?
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 11, 2024, 11:08 PM ---It is not a macro, but it is capable of doing things that a macro can do without doing it the way that a macro does it.
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True.
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 11, 2024, 11:08 PM ---For example, in Roper, you can set up 1 key with dynamic keystrokes so you can do multiple things together.
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I believe that set up multiple actions to one key is cheating, as I said before.
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 11, 2024, 11:08 PM ---Yes, this keyboard is OP at a top tier level, and yes, it would give players good enough a useful advantage but no, it is not technically cheating, unless someone makes up new rules specifically banning this, but either way, you cannot detect it using normal methods that finds macros, because it's not macros lol.
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I'm not going to argue, my point of view is unbreakable there. I also understood your point. We still won’t prove anything to each other anymore lol. :D Thank you at least for your honesty.
TheKomodo:
--- Quote from: flashR on March 12, 2024, 12:09 AM ---Where? I've watched almost full video and didn't see this.
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You can see in the video that I am using WASD for roping, the wooting keyboard doesn't even have arrows lol!
I have wkRemapKeys activated at ALL times, check this video at the given timestamp to see my exact setup:
If it doesn't load at the right point, then skip to 28:48 to watch the 5 minute wkRemapKeys tutorial.
--- Quote from: flashR on March 12, 2024, 12:09 AM ---WASD doesn't matter. I didn't talk about WASD at all. In this discussion the only space keys does matter in the context of unnatural fast tapping.
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Yes, WASD does matter, at least for me, if it does not matter for you, then this discussion has no point lol.
I cannot tap as fast/efficient with my left hand as I can with my right, that's why after 20 years of roping "normal" I switch to what I call "inverted" roping.
Normal = Right hand on arrows, left hand on spacebar.
Inverted = Left hand on WASD for arrows, right hand on spacebar.
--- Quote from: flashR on March 12, 2024, 12:09 AM ---Actuation point on normal keyboards doesn't make as much sense as it does on keyboards with rapid trigger. I have some O-rings and I've tried it on my mechanical keyboard. I barely felt any difference. The only the noise from the keys has decreased a little, but even then it felt more like a placebo. But I couldn’t get used to this actuation point of the red switches and I have switched back to my old membrane keyboard.
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Well, yes it does... The actuation point is the distance at which the key is activated on the way down.
Rapid trigger isn't a macro, rapid trigger is basically an inverted actuation point, meaning at which point on the way UP(while releasing the button you have pressed) that the signal deactivates.
What rapid trigger in combination with a low actuation point is it makes the off signal more dynamic and flexible so it doesn't matter how far down you push, the signal goes OFF as soon as you lift your finger up as low as 0.1mm.
Do you understand better now?
--- Quote from: flashR on March 12, 2024, 12:09 AM ---Really? Was it true even when you created a macro for 2 actuation points for the one key? In fact, you put 2 spacebar activations on the one button.
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Again, it is NOT a macro, so please stop calling it a macro. If we were talking about macros, I would use the word macro.
If you don't like it, or you think it's cheating, or whatever, that's fine lol, but it is NOT, I repeat NOT a macro!
It will not execute 2 different actions if you do not press it all the way down, or whatever you set it to.
Another way to think of it as putting a key into a keyhole to unlock a lock:
If you do not push the key all the way in, it will not activate all the notches.
--- Quote from: flashR on March 12, 2024, 12:09 AM ---I don't want to go deep into theory. Who cares how it's called if the result is almost the same? Anyway these macros (or not macros, who cares?) gives an advantage over other players who does not use it.
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Yes, it does give an advantage, for those good enough to take advantage of it.
This is not a secret, it's the entire point of the review, to show everyone the technology that is available.
Also, about giving an advantage over other players...
Why is that a problem?
Forget about this Wooting keyboard for a moment, and let's just use my Logitech k740 or Corsair K65 Vengeance, which are normal keyboards which don't have any software to macro etc.
Isn't it already an advantage that I have a better CPU/GPU/Keyboard/Monitor/Gaming Chair/Internet connection than 90% of people who have ever played Worms Armageddon?
Isn't it an advantage that I've been playing this game for over 24 years and have 50k+ hours of experience with this game?
It's not illegal to own more powerful equipment, or play on different resolutions etc.
This keyboard is available for anyone who can afford it, the technology available in this keyboard is going to be the industry standard soon.
So rather than labelling it cheating(which it literally isn't anyway lol), it's better to embrace it and get yourself better educated with it, and probably use it yourself, if you want to compete at the highest level of the game.
--- Quote from: flashR on March 12, 2024, 12:09 AM ---Yes. And you have set 2 actions to one key by using different trigger points. It's almost the same as a macro, but much more advanced. If we call a macro is a cheat, then why is an "advanced" macro not a cheat?
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It's not an advanced macro... LOL stop using the word "macro" and call it by it's official term please, it's called "Dynamic Keystroke", not macro.
As far as I know, it's easy for someone like Deadcode/MonkeyIsland to detect macros.
It's impossible to detect dynamic keystroke, as far as I know.
--- Quote from: flashR on March 12, 2024, 12:09 AM ---I believe that set up multiple actions to one key is cheating, as I said before.
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There is no other way to say this except straight to the point.
It doesn't matter if you think it's cheating, it's literally NOT cheating unless the owner of this League, or the developers of Worms Armageddon label it as cheating.
You are neither, so you don't get to decide.
Anything you do within the rulebook, is perfectly legal and quite frankly, who cares if it upsets other people, they can use the same technology if they want.
--- Quote from: flashR on March 12, 2024, 12:09 AM ---I'm not going to argue, my point of view is unbreakable there. I also understood your point. We still won’t prove anything to each other anymore lol. :D Thank you at least for your honesty.
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Well, it doesn't matter to me if you understand the truth or not, my entire purpose is just to keep the entire community up to date with current technology that can improve almost anybodies gameplay and skills.
Whether they understand it and believe it or not, that's up to them lol, I've done my job! :)
flashR:
Stop starting every sentence with a new paragraph. You're trying to overwhelm me with a wall of text again. Don't you know how to divide paragraphs correctly?
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 12, 2024, 12:38 AM ---Yes, WASD does matter, at least for me, if it does not matter for you, then this discussion has no point lol.
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Agreed, this discussion has no point, because initially we were talking only about the space keys in context of super fast tapping, the rest is demagoguery.
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 12, 2024, 12:38 AM ---Do you understand better now?
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I understood it perfectly and immidiately. I said that I don’t want to go deep into the theory, so I’m intentionally simplifying it a little, including for those people who may read these posts later.
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 12, 2024, 12:38 AM ---Again, it is NOT a macro, so please stop calling it a macro. If we were talking about macros, I would use the word macro.
If you don't like it, or you think it's cheating, or whatever, that's fine lol, but it is NOT, I repeat NOT a macro!
--- End quote ---
This terminology is absolutely not important for explaining my point of view, so I don’t care. As I said, I'm simplifying it a bit. The much more important thing that you said:
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 11, 2024, 11:08 PM ---it is capable of doing things that a macro can do without doing it the way that a macro does it.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 12, 2024, 12:38 AM ---It will not execute 2 different actions if you do not press it all the way down, or whatever you set it to.
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But it will execute 2 different actions if you press it all the way down. :)
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 12, 2024, 12:38 AM ---Yes, it does give an advantage, for those good enough to take advantage of it.
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In other words, it does give an advantage for all more or less experienced WA players. :D
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 12, 2024, 12:38 AM ---Also, about giving an advantage over other players...
Why is that a problem?
Isn't it already an advantage that I have a better CPU/GPU/Keyboard/Monitor/Gaming Chair/Internet connection than 90% of people who have ever played Worms Armageddon?
Isn't it an advantage that I've been playing this game for over 24 years and have 50k+ hours of experience with this game?
--- End quote ---
I could write a lot of things there, but I’ll try briefly, because you always complicate, and then I always have to simplify, in order to bring you back into the mainstream of the dialogue.
Would it be interesting for you to watch a ski race (for example) where one participant has a super-modern skis, and the other guy has old, crooked and rusty ones? It seems the winner is obvious. Ideally, players should compete on equal terms. But no one can prohibit a player from buying anything and upgrading PC. Right? So any peripheral is okay. If you have 24 years of experience, then you're awesome, that's a fair advantage, because it's about skill, perseverance, patience and more, so it's okay as well. But we can prohibit using all kind of macros, as well as setting up 2 actions to one key. It's an unfair advantage. In some cases, it can even manipulate the game engine, allowing you to tap faster than the developers intended. I’m not talking about Wooting and its technologies, I’m talking about macros and scripts that allow you to press one space key and shoot a rope when another space key is already pressed.
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on March 12, 2024, 12:38 AM ---It doesn't matter if you think it's cheating, it's literally NOT cheating unless the owner of this League, or the developers of Worms Armageddon label it as cheating.
You are neither, so you don't get to decide.
--- End quote ---
Ow seriously... I’m just used to live in a democratic society, but it seems like you have an autocracy here, guys. Not only the developers and the owner of the league plays this game. Therefore It does matter and I consider myself in the right to propose some amendments. If you think that only developers has the rights to say their opinions about rules, then I would wish you to play with each other, guys, it would be very exciting. Developer vs the league owner or developer vs another developer. Fun. I'm surprised that this statement was written by a person who declares his goal is building big and healthy community.
By the way, sensei is still silent. He has not explained which macros and scripts are not allowed. Seems like a simple question. Probably you scared him with walls of text haha. :D
TheKomodo:
--- Quote from: flashR on March 12, 2024, 09:06 PM ---Stop starting every sentence with a new paragraph. You're trying to overwhelm me with a wall of text again. Don't you know how to divide paragraphs correctly?
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This isn't a peer reviewed essay, or professional assignment... It's a forum, I'll write however I want, thanks.
I write like this because it's easier for the average person to digest, and even more useful if they want to quote specific parts, or find specific sentences.
--- Quote from: flashR on March 12, 2024, 09:06 PM ---Would it be interesting for you to watch a ski race (for example) where one participant has a super-modern skis, and the other guy has old, crooked and rusty ones? It seems the winner is obvious. Ideally, players should compete on equal terms. But no one can prohibit a player from buying anything and upgrading PC. Right? So any peripheral is okay. If you have 24 years of experience, then you're awesome, that's a fair advantage, because it's about skill, perseverance, patience and more, so it's okay as well. But we can prohibit using all kind of macros, as well as setting up 2 actions to one key. It's an unfair advantage. In some cases, it can even manipulate the game engine, allowing you to tap faster than the developers intended. I’m not talking about Wooting and its technologies, I’m talking about macros and scripts that allow you to press one space key and shoot a rope when another space key is already pressed.
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Actually, I would be interested in seeing old technology vs new technology in pretty much anything lol. That's a great idea!
That reminds me of these videos about epic hypothetical battles that are on YouTube, like 5,000,000 Aliens, Predators and Space Troopers against humanity!
Anyway, sure, you can prohibit macros, and you can detect this with competence.
You cannot prohibit Dynamic Keystroke though in a way that it's even detectable, and if there isn't a rule that says it's illegal, then that's your problem for being annoyed about it and not embracing it. It's definitely not my problem.
Part of the entire purpose of competition is to take things to the next level, and most people are always trying to find loopholes and techniques that give them an advantage or an edge against other people.
And most of the time, rules are only created AFTER someone found something that gives too much of an advantage and it's possible to prevent it.
I am doing my part, to show people what's possible and they can make their own decisions.
--- Quote from: flashR on March 12, 2024, 09:06 PM ---Ow seriously... I’m just used to live in a democratic society, but it seems like you have an autocracy here, guys. Not only the developers and the owner of the league plays this game. Therefore It does matter and I consider myself in the right to propose some amendments. If you think that only developers has the rights to say their opinions about rules, then I would wish you to play with each other, guys, it would be very exciting. Developer vs the league owner or developer vs another developer. Fun. I'm surprised that this statement was written by a person who declares his goal is building big and healthy community.
--- End quote ---
You've taken this completely the wrong way, and it's probably my fault for wording it so bluntly...
So let me rephrase it:
You, and anyone else, are all free to make any and as many suggestions as you want to help shape this League, website and community in general.
However, MonkeyIsland, and MonkeyIsland ALONE makes the final decision about everything, this is not debateable. Those are the terms and conditions when you register to this website.
Every part of this website that I am a moderator for, MonkeyIsland can overturn any decision I make and there's nothing I can do about it other than trust him.
He DOES have my complete faith and trust when it comes to running the most successful and longest running mainstream Worms Armageddon League/Website that has existed in the history of the game.
Shtaket:
!!!
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