i think ideally we all just want 1 global ladder for each scheme and enough games triggers POs... instead of same schemes split across different leagues... how close are you to next versions of TUS?

i just came on to play some TTLs and the season has ended, didn't realise, could you please re-open it?

I'll report my games as t17s vs dibz in the mean time if thats ok?

think it would be time for season 8 of TTL soon. Before moving to the new version of TUS where there is only 1 rating per scheme.. could we look at some kind of format for TTL where it is 3 month long seasons and then playoffs. And try to keep to that so only 4 playoffs a year?

discussions around which scheme to use of long bow have been happening on discord. I'm happy with either but that's for others to debate.

Sorry but the worst thing you could do is pick t17. This would just duplicate rankings and efforts in the soon to be next season of ttl right? Please don't pick t17 as then it will feature separately in potentially 3 ladders at one moment!

What about rope, grenade wars and f weapons scheme?

@MonkeyIsland

This is great to hear and I do have a few questions relating to the proposal for TUS 3.0

Timelines

When can we expect 3.0 to be launched? Is there point opening a new season of TTL or is TUS 3.0 only round the corner. I'm happy to wait for TUS 3.0 until I do singles again as this would encourage myself to be more active because i personally would search for t17s but also happy to do other defaults and would probably try to compete across multiple scheme ladders and maybe even the all round playoffs.

Scheme Variations
This concerned me as you gave an example of ttrr with banana and ttrr for dyno. Wouldn't it be best to have the core TUS schemes set which where standardised and the main scheme to use? Schemes do evolve over time but some variations can be dramatic and can argue you move away from the core scheme, imagine t17 with no griders, or t17 where you can see whats inside the cr8s, that wouldn't be t17, and a bunch of players reporting non standard schemes into the ladder seems like a recipe for diaster. I think some clear guidelines and rules around this are required.

Range Schemes
What schemes will be allowed in the global ladder? Are we talking everything? Is this the best approach because of the planned updates that Deadcode is working on? Will Free league also disappear and the ladder is across ALL schemes? Or are we just talking about classic schemes and the new popular variants like tower rr, big rr and grenade wars?

If ALL schemes are allowed, how is overall rank calculated? Its fairly straight forward to just add another rank into the algorithm that calculates overall? By adding more scheme specific ratings, does it make it harder for you to earn overall elite rating?

If there is a much bigger range of schemes, how will overall allrounder playoffs work? I'd argue that we should stick with the same classic schemes for allrounder playoffs because allowing someone to pick mole shopper or darts seems a bit weird, and they can still try and win the darts or grenade war playoffs if enough activity.

Ratings
Is there any opportunity to use a new rating system with the launch of TUS 3.0? Having seen some of the huge drops in such a small player pool, i'm not sure if the current rating system works for our activity? I could be wrong. Take me for example, my rating for TTL is quite low compared to others, but i only play the best players, i never really play others. I think it always surprises Deadcode when he faces me as my rank is much lower than his and he's built his up from playing a range of players. Yes i could try and improve my winning percentage, but i do feel I'm always playing top players. Will this issue become less of an issue because i'm finding more opponents for t17 in the new system? OR are we better off reviewing the different point rating systems of ELO, Glecko or whatever it is and finding a better version of what TUS uses now? I'd love KRD to comment here as know he has some ideas on rating schemes and what can work depending on player pools.

IF we did change anything, and when we do merge and make 1 ladder for 1 scheme - can we recalculate all the ratings and add in all the historical games to the new system?

Can playoffs and cup matches also change our rating? For example, after my t17 po victories my rating should change for the new season.

Match Making
It would be great if you could please explain how match making will work, especially if you are open to playing any scheme or not open to playing certain schemes. How does match making work when each opponent picks a scheme and when I have a right to not play big rr if i don't want to.

Free wins
We need to get out of the culture of reporting free wins and people thinking its fine to report these. People need to agree their picks before the first match begins and if you don't want to play your opponents pick before the first match begins that is fine, find another opponent or see if both players can agree something else. The only time a free win is mildly acceptable is when both picks have been agreed before the first match and second game is refused after that agreement.



There is probably more questions but it would be great to discuss the above!

ps. i don't think this should be a huge community decision as we'll never decide and agree on everything and you just have to build it and see if they come!

Great games KRD. Some really big moments and such swings in momentum. The only thing we were missing was maybe a drawn round to get more than 7 games!

ok.

I want to try and clarify what i'm saying. I wrote it on discord the other night but to go into more detail.

I believe that due to such a small player pool we are dividing all our efforts of competitive games across too many leagues, cups and tournaments. In an ideal world, EVERY competitive game of WA would go into 1 global ladder/league.

I don't know what MI has planned for TUS 3.0 but first try to imagine a system similar to this.

Instead of having TUS allround, TTL, ONL and TRL. There was one larger ladder. Opponents HAVE to agree picks before they start the first game to avoid playing a scheme your not interested in playing. I say this because there is nothing wrong with agreeing picks before the first game starts and agreeing the games you want to play. It should be encouraged to stop lame tactics of second game picks happening after game one because if you win game 1 which was your opponents pick, and then pick game 2 you are bias of trying to go 2-0 easily, but if you lost you are biased of trying to go for 1-1. This happens a lot when players don't pick before game 1 starts, this would have to be a rule that is enforced. Also this rule is good for time poor wormers because personally I would not play an opponent in the ladder who wanted to wxw or big rr. I'm time poor with WA and I only want to play schemes I enjoy. However, going back to my original vision for this ladder, just because i'm focused on a reduced number of schemes, doesn't mean those games I play can't go into an overall global ladder or ranking.


So if TUS allround, TTL, TRL and ONL are merged you have 1 global standing. There would be playoffs for EACH scheme if the criteria for those schemes were met - we can decide how many games are needed to try a scheme only playoff to occur in that scheme and how many PO spots. But lets just say  at least 20 games per player, 80 in total and 4 spots.

You then still have the allrounder playoffs for the main ladder, but players can decide to opt out of the allround playoffs if they want to. There would be an option to toggle a box if they want to opt out of playoffs. This would also be available for scheme specialist playoffs, maybe i ended up playing over 20 ropers while i was happy playing bngs, t17s and elite as i decided i was ok playing my opponents pick, (sometimes i enjoy roping!) some how i got into the roper playoffs but dibz, mablak and sock are also qualified, I opt out and give my place to someone else (this is probably rare) - Maybe Deadcode plays all his t17 games but wins everyone and has a high enough overall rank to make the allround playoffs, he's not interested because he only plays t17 and decides to opt out of the allround playoffs and a spot goes to the next seed.

This system would in theory mean that all the TRL, ONL, TTL games end up becoming apart of the main global worms ladder. We'd have to work with the league admins of ONL to agree merging into a global ladder. But in theory nothing would change as all the inter players just play inter and still get inter playoffs, but those standings might look a little different.


I also think that CUP games on tus should be added into the main ladder, you can still run a cup and have cup winners but the game gets duplicated and features into the global ladder, it still calculates points based on ratings etc. - This helps the health of the global ladder.

Playoffs could be a bit different, the games wouldn't count in the ladder because Playoffs would fall outside of it, but they should certainly effect your rating.

Advantages

• More competitive worms games going into 1 global ladder would show more activity, this would hopefully attract more players and keep players interested. Then the same number of league games that the current community is playing would count towards the main ladder and activity would look much higher. This increase in activity may then encourage more league play and a positive snowball.
• bigger player pool
• No duplicating scheme ratings, instead of two t17 ranks in two leagues, all my t17 games are now 1 rating. Same with inter.
• scheme specialists can still have their scheme specialists playoffs and championship - it might encourage more activity for a roper, bng, elite etc and new season champions in specific schemes
• The system would encourage players doing a bit more cross play and trying other schemes and developing their skill, at their choice!
• A flexible system where you can still play competitive worms but only take part in playoffs you were interested in
• More recognition for most popular schemes.

Disadvantages

Potentially more moderation for playoffs - we'd need strict rules about playing games on time and moderators who are happy to remove someone who didn't show enough effort. Screenshots of direct messages and pm's with mods cc'd in are recommended to show players trying to arrange.

Some people may feel there are too many trophies to keep up with but in theory it's just the same as having a winner for ONL, TTL and TRL right?

Challenges

Finding a layout which is nice and shows allround ladder but can easily see the ladders for the other popular schemes like inter and t17

Getting ONL to stop ONL and become a part of something bigger.



Let's take some examples.

KRD only enjoys playing island t17, he can still play this scheme against opponents who also like this scheme, he has no problems finding matches. But now int he t17 ladder, the games of players like free who t17s in tus allround are also in the scheme ladder. Free might play 20 t17s over a season and he might decide to opt into the t17 playoffs, KRD makes the playoffs too, but his position in the overall ladder is just based on his t17 wins and he opts out of the allround ladder.

KRD struggles to find a game of t17, but stills someone is searching for tus. That player is a defaulter, its free. Free fancies playing elite that evening, t17 asks if he's ok doing t17 for KRDs pick. They both play and now the activity of worms is slightly increasing because all the t17 games for league are in one place.



*************


There is just all blue sky thinking but personally i think it would be a better solution to what we have now where all our ladders are separate and we are splitting limited activity across too many leagues.

Do we have too many leagues and schemes that we make WA worse than it could be in terms of competitive play?

Imagine one league where all classic schemes counted to some kind of global ladder, but we could still have individual scheme playoffs or something. I like TTL but i won't play TUS classic because i have no desire to play big rr or tower rr.

Then there is onl, trl, free league, koas league, i think the more we've made wa a sandbox for new schemes, the more it's killed competitive play.

I still thing we need to centralised all leagues into 1 global ladder.

I'm not sure what is planned in new TUS but i wonder if as a community, and not just the TUS community, but the inter onl guys, the koas people, we could all come together to decide on what would be best.


ps. i'm a hypocrite and love TTL ladder.

Island T17. - At least you get to use all of WA's weapons.

i'm still in favour for the smaller clans and personally i won't over recruit in CKC again, i'll try to keep a max of 4 members to try and cover most schemes and then hopefully there's always 2-3 people online who can play, great if all 4 one night.

In the very little time i have for worms, i don't want to play league schemes i don't enjoy. I've given out a free win already to dt for wxw as just a waste of time when i don't get much time to play.

Personally i'd love a smaller selection of clanner schemes like we had in the old days.

ttrr
roper
shopper
bng
elite
t17
hysteria

These would be ideal for me but realise that the newer schemes are popular and i wouldn't want to remove them for anyone, i just won't bother playing a big rr, tower whatever it is or wxw.

CKC is actively looking for someone who enjoys clanners and doesn't mind only play them once a week or so at the same level as activity a me and Albino! Ideally a roper


PO's are a joke. Stritcher rules on missing deadlines are needed. I've been ready to play my TTL vs Deadcode for months!

I reported my TTL wins vs albino wrong last night.

Accidently did them as tus classic.

Please can they be deleted and also maybe albinos win and done in the same order so points are correct?

Quote from: Free on December 12, 2023, 12:49 PM
So how can we get a ruling/possible change on this?

I was asking about adding 5s or even 2s hotseat time for elite just so you can see the wind before your turn starts but there's nothing, no voting, decision nothing. It's kind annoying.

its not broke, its good that elite has no hotseat time as quick decision making is critical skill. Dealing with not knowing the wind for 2 seconds is fun and makes it harder to zook or do your parachute traverse

can we have a new season of ttl plz?

elite is prefect and doesn't need any changes. You don't need any hotseat time. Plan your moves in your opponents turns.. it's part of the excitement not knowing what the wind will fully be in that delay. Those 2 seconds will add extra thinking time and that's not ideal when the scheme is about rewarding quick thinking strategic play.

i think free man was taking the piss.

Whats the difference between senator's t17 scheme and Deadcodes? I'm always playing Deadcodes