The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
One-Boards => Challenges Comments => Topic started by: Big Billy on August 16, 2023, 04:37 PM
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New Chally started!
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Crazy how much I love my own map right now...
Actually made this map on the 26th May 2021! Just forgot to upload it or pretty much ever play it :D
Definitely see Sub 210s coming pretty easy, Sub 200s possible.
Not bad for my 2nd worm that got to the finish, plenty room for improvement and optimization!
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Ugh! I got a PB but think I've deleted the replay by accident, I was a bit drunk lol.
I got a 208.36 on stream!
I had a ridiculously good pace where I messed up at the 1st massive fly and lost 5-6 seconds! So I used TA to take over and it was a 197s turn had I finished with no mistakes! So gutted!
Still, pretty happy with the improvement!
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First sub 200s by Masta. Very nice and smooth run.
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The 11th episode has condluded!
Congratz to Masta with a mindblowing 194.22s
Very nice second place for TheKomodo with 205.22s
And good job for Sock with 218.1s
And thanks to Komo for streaming the hell out of his tries :)
See you on the next one.
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I will come back to this challenge!
Determined to get a sub 200s, my theoretical best was 189.56, so anywhere between that and 199 I'm happy with! :D
The Wooting 60HE will be arriving between 15th and 18th September! So I'll pick up then and pop the kbs cherry on this map!
Plus, Starfield came out a few days ago and I'm absolutely hooked! So gives me time to complete that as well in between!
Congratz Masta, consistent as usual!
Edit - Wait what? I got a better time 205.14 and sure I uploaded it lol! I got that some days ago anyway I'll upload it again now!
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Damn Masta... Very nice run! Impressive it was about 1 second to my original Save State replay run!
Didn't even know this was submitted, Triad told me so checked it out!
So the TA run is done by roping as normal, but whenever I make a mistake, or didn't do a section the way as intended, you basically just reload the replay and take control from that point and then get it right.
I decided to update my TA run, using the Wooting 60HE and about 30 or 40 save states, only took about 30 minutes though:
It's definitely a style of roping that's crazy precise and fast, but very possible for the select handful of ropers who can rope that fast, if they could practise the same map for months or perhaps even years like real speedrunners do...
Anyway, us WA players have thousands of maps so we don't spend THAT much time, so this TA run gives an ideal of what the best of us could actually achieve if we played ONLY that map for long enough.
Edit - @Masta(or anyone else), if you watched the TA run I did, are there any parts you saw and think could be done more optimized to save some seconds? I'd love to try do a sub 180 and trying to think which sections to could improve here and there...
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Improved it down to 178.34, the pumps at the end, during that actual run in the video, it took a few attempts to get that last pump at the end right... Then when I thought "I'll see if it's actually possible to do that many kicks in a row" I did, multiple times, the best one actually saving 0.26s.
Those pumps at the end are actually SupaEasy(pun intended)... Due to the distance between the walls and the height that you are pumping at, for many ropers I see them able to pull this sort of 40-50 degree angle perfectly multiple times in a row as it's just the goldilocks of timing for that specific move, easy to replicate... It's kind of similar to the full power bounce in a bungee race after you get the first full extension and YEET!
The 2 double power outlaws in a row at 88 seconds are actually MUCH easier to pull off in a real run than the version in the video above with the one power outlaw to scroll... You need to get a perfect setup to get the scroll full speed with the perfect line to quickly tap and get under the next section... With a double power outlaw there is more room for error/correction by a few frames.
So I'd highly advise the double power outlaw.
Though, there's absolutely NOTHING else at the moment I can think of to make it better with manual roping using save states in a way that you are doing moves that are pretty easy to repeat on their own successfully... Though I am sure there's a way to shave another second off probably.
It's stringing them all together that would make anyone who could pull it off, the greatest roper that has ever lived. :D
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Damn Masta... Very nice run! Impressive it was about 1 second to my original Save State replay run!
Thanks, it could have been faster without the fall so I'm a bit disappointed but there is still a bunch of time to save as you have shown.
It's stringing them all together that would make anyone who could pull it off, the greatest roper that has ever lived. :D
I don't agree with this or even care the only reason I would try to do it is if you did a sub 190 as my goal for this map is to be 10s faster than you.
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There is absolutely no way I'm spending that amount of time doing a legit run :D
I think if you get a sub 190 it would be impressive enough for this map even by challenge standards. I know it's possible, I'm happy enough with that.
I reckon you could get like a legit 5 seconds less run with a bit of effort more than usual.
Trying to push the TA run any faster borders between what's realistically possible like doing moves you'd just never do in a real run, even a challenge... There are already so many frame perfect moments or timing and reflexes in that one... At least without there being some crazy incentive.
The greatest roper that has ever lived comment was obviously more of a biased kinda true kinda not joke comment... You know when you eat a really good mac n cheese and say "This is the best damn mac n cheese I've ever had!" That's what I meant... It's like the pinnacle of something you wanted to experience in a certain way so far.
Funny thing is, my goal with TA is to be 10 seconds faster than your legit run 🤣 I just can't be bothered with the time it takes to be that consistent anymore, so many other fun things to do!
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I keep saying I'm not sure how to improve but then end up improving it again:
This is definitely very close to the limit though, I genuinely cannot think of doing anything else there differently... It's like the maximum of what I even know how to do using the Ninja Rope as a human player, even for a challenge that takes 3 minutes to complete.
This is getting close to what would take months maybe even years to pull off in 1 continous legit run without a single mistake and lots of frame perfect timing with the spacebar as well as frame perfect control with the arrow keys.
It took me about 60 - 90 minutes to make that run with TA, somewhere around 100 to 200 save state reattempts where I failed and loaded the save state again.
I just want to add... Obviously I'm less consistent than when I practised every day for hours many many years ago... So there's virtually no way I'm ever doing a run like this for real without months to years of practise on JUST this map and doing nothing else in WA. But, nope lol, there's too many good things to do in this game now!
However, this Wooting 60HE when it comes to racing scheme takes roping to new levels which I can now see the potential of which these TA runs, I can't recommend this keyboard enough for anyone who wants to win real roping events legit it really does give the edge... When it comes to the quick double tap and triple tap, the sensitivity is so damn precise with the lowest latency I've ever encountered I'm able to do those really close to the ceiling throws legit quite often! That's something I couldn't even do when I was recognized as a very strong and fast roper 20-25 years ago.
I cannot rope this precise and tight with any other keyboard period, it's just got this next level feeling to it.
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I'm glad we are on the same page about time investment. Playing on the same map for more than 90 min is usually enough for me to get bored and start to lose focus. I read what you said as indirectly suggesting that someone should try to do a sub 180 on this map, that's why I made the sub 190 suggestion to you. If you want to do a certain time on a map you should do so at your own discretion and because it's a goal you set for yourself, that's how I feel at least. My apologies if I misunderstood.
As for analogue keyboards I would feel bad for using one in combination with finger rolling. The tapping speed you gain with finger rolling and the additional tapping control needed feels balanced to me, but the nature of analogue switches kind of negates the finger control aspect. I'm also afraid I will lose the finger control I've built up over the years and become dependent on analogue switches.
@Masta(or anyone else), if you watched the TA run I did, are there any parts you saw and think could be done more optimized to save some seconds?
Here are a couple of moves that could improve the run, it's just my intuition that it's faster so I can't guarantee a time save:
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I'm glad we are on the same page about time investment. Playing on the same map for more than 90 min is usually enough for me to get bored and start to lose focus. I read what you said as indirectly suggesting that someone should try to do a sub 180 on this map, that's why I made the sub 190 suggestion to you. If you want to do a certain time on a map you should do so at your own discretion and because it's a goal you set for yourself, that's how I feel at least. My apologies if I misunderstood.
Oh, no worries, I didn't even realize you misunderstood or anything. :D
Well, I don't think any human is getting sub 180 without at least a month of practise multiple hours a day, and not focusing on any other video game so their mind retains muscle memory for this game.
180-185 though I definitely feel is possible for someone with the level of consistency that yourself and Sir-J are on, just need to go a little faster.
As for analogue keyboards I would feel bad for using one in combination with finger rolling. The tapping speed you gain with finger rolling and the additional tapping control needed feels balanced to me, but the nature of analogue switches kind of negates the finger control aspect. I'm also afraid I will lose the finger control I've built up over the years and become dependent on analogue switches.
Really? I've found the opposite to be true!
I've never ever done finger rolling before because I was so inaccurate... The window of error you get doing it with the Wooting is so good it helped me train my muscle memory pretty quickly so that I'm able to do very nice scrolls in a warmer... However I'd still need to practise for months to years to get good at using it in all other ways.
I can actually finger roll on my other normal keyboards now thanks to the Wooting... The good thing about the Wooting as well is that you can program it to various sensitivity to replicate whatever keyboard you want.
I believe you would be even better with a Wooting, ESPECIALLY with the finger control, both tapping speed/sensitivity/latency and finger control speed/sensitivity/latency is improved.
You might find that you get better with the Wooting than you were with your normal keyboard, then going back to your normal keyboard you lose that 5% edge you had with the Wooting.
In these videos I am not finger rolling, just single normal taps, it's more accurate than finger rolling in my opinion. At least for the time being, though in theory finger rolling should technically be faster if mastered enough, but you don't need to go any faster than that anyway as it becomes more for show than necessity.
Here are a couple of moves that could improve the run, it's just my intuition that it's faster so I can't guarantee a time save:
Interesting... 1st of all, for me, that sound bank can take a flying jump off a cliff it makes the audio timing of everything feel so off and unsatisfying lol.
Anyway though:
#1 seems obvious and it's the way I was doing it before or at least trying to in a normal run, but then you did it the other way and I thought that's actually very good in association with the previous tunnel section, if I got a slightly higher throw from the tunnel below to the wall on the right it would give me the momentum needed to get up that way, I'll try it!
#2 seems very easy, thanks, will try that!
#3 doesn't seem faster than the current run due to the way you approach it versus the way I approach it. Your approach has a faster burst to reach the top, but I reach the top faster than the way you have. I'll try it anyway with a slightly higher throw up the wall and see if it works.
#4 definitely is faster, without a doubt, will add this.
#5 looks faster at the bottom part but slower at the top part so I think this is pretty even, and the way I've done it seems easier. I will test it just to make sure, I think it has potential though.
I think these little changes could take us to 169! Will try that today or tomorrow. Thanks!
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Ok, I'm done with this now, very happy with this final TA run, there's nothing I can do that does it faster without being over the top trying to save a few frames here and there.
So...
#1 It was faster
#2 It wasn't faster, the power spike looks faster but is an illusion based on slowing down and then having a slower rope speed up until the swoosh.
#3 It wasn't faster in the end, it was slower, at least based on the speed I already had.
#4 Not only was your way faster, I found an even FASTER way thanks to what you did as it take a couple of frames extra to setup, but the payoff after the power bounce at the bottom makes it save a lot of frames!
#5 Wasn't faster it's pretty equal, I also tried a few variations and it was about the same give or take a few frames based on how good your timing was the whole way through but I like the way the swoosh to quick flick looks so kept that and feels easier for me personally.
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Beautiful run. If Worms Armageddon was a popular esports title and the best ropers could dedicate hours to improve their roping skills, I wonder how close they could get to this theoretical level in all Big RR maps.
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Beautiful run. If Worms Armageddon was a popular esports title and the best ropers could dedicate hours to improve their roping skills, I wonder how close they could get to this theoretical level in all Big RR maps.
Thanks, it's super fun doing these, I think I'll branch out to other scheme challenges as well like the recent Boom Race.
Well it's interesting... I think it would work similar to Formula 1 or professional rally racing, where they practise the course in advance and maybe even have a co-runner who calls out the moves. These days there are hundreds of maps for Big RR, thousands if you include those made with Legion's Big RR Generator. You would have to practise a single map for months at least to get to those levels or close.
Remember when Darts first started Triad? You had Tournaments where people used 3 maps for the entire Tournament, they practised beforehand and the skill level was higher and more impressive.
I'd like to see events similar where they have a more limited pool of maps to play so the skill level peaks showing what players can achieve when they memorize the circuit.
A few examples:
In FPS games, you could be the best mechanical player, able to draw and shoot faster and with more accuracy than any other player in the world, but if you're up against the other top 20 players in the world, and they all played the map for a few weeks, and it's your first time, you're going to lose for a while before you learn the environment. As when you play FPS games you memorize the map, where people spawn, where weapons spawn, where there are interactive objects/missions/etc.
In platformers like Super Mario World and Sonic the Hedgehog... Imagine if they were to play a randomly generated level each run and only getting 4 attempts to do it as fast as possible, against other players? Actually, I think my words accidentally invented a new way for them to play using the same format as TTRR in WA with time trial runs, 4 worms.
Anyway, the point being, we're capable of actually roping like that, given enough practise and experience with the Ninja Rope in general from Warmer/WxW/TTRR/Big RR/Tower Race/Roper/etc, then further to that months to years of experience on an individual map.
That's why I find top tier mechanical players in this game more impressive than any other game that exists, there are SO many variables in WA nothing else is even close, that I know of.
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Remember when Darts first started Triad? You had Tournaments where people used 3 maps for the entire Tournament, they practised beforehand and the skill level was higher and more impressive.
Yeah, the competition was really fierce. On Darts events, not only I had to be careful against dS admins like you or Hurz, dS players like timo or Marian, but even non-dS players like Zwitter or Pyro was sometimes a threat.
I think whenever I'll host a new Darts event, I'll try to use a specific map pack like the WO days.
In FPS games, you could be the best mechanical player, able to draw and shoot faster and with more accuracy than any other player in the world, but if you're up against the other top 20 players in the world, and they all played the map for a few weeks, and it's your first time, you're going to lose for a while before you learn the environment.
Indeed, reminds me of people who play Dust 2 over and over again in CSGO. When these people play on any other map, they really have a harder time.