The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Cups and Tournaments => Cups and Tournaments Comments => Topic started by: Magnus on December 13, 2021, 12:29 PM
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Is this supposed to be a different mole scheme, which will be played every now and then, or has the intention of improving the TUS mole scheme to be the preferred played scheme?
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Fixing the SD waterrise would be a cool idea as well.. level 1 (1-2 pixel rise) is way too slow, level 2 (15-20 pixels) is way too fast. This would also make this scheme more enjoyable.
Also, limiting the girders ;) 7 girders, like in Deadcode's team17 scheme. Just giving a few tips, how more players would be interested to play this :D
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Is this supposed to be a different mole scheme, which will be played every now and then, or has the intention of improving the TUS mole scheme to be the preferred played scheme?
I don't have the capacity to decide which scheme is official on TUS website. Can it be decided anyhow? Not sure who is in charge of the official TUS schemes in the first place. While Firepunch, Homing Missile, Dragon Ball, Mine, Handgun would be a vast improvement, I still need to consult a few people about Bazooka's power.
Fixing the SD waterrise would be a cool idea as well.. level 1 (1-2 pixel rise) is way too slow, level 2 (15-20 pixels) is way too fast. This would also make this scheme more enjoyable.
Also, limiting the girders ;) 7 girders, like in Deadcode's team17 scheme. Just giving a few tips, how more players would be interested to play this :D
Games are already enjoyable enough (and thanks to the slow flood they can last 60-80 min during the best mind games). The thing that can be improved is making all weapons similarly threatening. 7 girders is not needed since you should have an unlimited capacity to climb or defend yourself against strong attacks (which still being bombarded from above with mole). You can't block anybody who isn't close to you anyway. These changes will be appreciated by those who play mole for years, and chose this scheme for its tacticality rather than entertainement.
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I liked that you wrote the whole context and history of Mole Shopper evolution. This information could also be on WKB's Mole Shopper article. Very interesting points and changes. I like schemes with no standard weapon powers. I simply don't understand who criticizes powers different than 3 stars when the powers can make a scheme more well balanced.
By the way if I'm not mistaken you are also the creator of Mole Forts, an interesting variant and fusion of schemes. Good job on that as well, I need to try it one day. It has a lot of maps and still did not receive a proper category in WMDB or on TUS maps section.
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1. Every "weak" weapon that you find, will now serve you much greater. This time you can defend yourself better against Clusters, Shotgun & Banana.
Like Nous told me, my scheme already does that.
3. Still debatable additions:
- 1x Freeze in the inventory
Not debatable at all for me as this is a terrible setting for the scheme. With a freeze in the inventory, you totally remove the known tactic of invading your opponent’s cave when your opponent’s next worm to play is far away from their cave unable to defend the upcoming attack. If a player fails to protect their cave, it’s their problem. This weapon is featured in my SWs mole variant and it may protect your worms if used at the right moment (unless your opponent has petrol, but at least they can’t be banana-killed). If you’re still in doubt about this, just look at how Nous managed to ambush Magnificent in their last round in danie’s world cup; that’s at least the only example and also which is available publicly for download that I have off the top of my head at the moment.
Current powers of weapons (might change)
Mine -96 hp
Uzi -85/-95 hp
Homing Missile -70 hp
Bazooka -70 hp
Dragon Ball -60 hp
Firepunch -60 hp
(new!) Handgun -60 hp
Mine -96hp, Uzi -85/95hp, are you nuts? But ok, well, let’s go by parts:
Increasing the mine and homing power is something that should never be done in mole since those are THE ONLY TWO WEAPONS that allows you to make a small crater to let a worm down in case there’s a tunnel beside it as not to open them to the top with a stronger explosive. Even if you have a dynamite, at these moments, you’ll still prefer to use a mine or homing (if possible) instead. It would also mess the balance of the weapons if you overpowered mine as it’d become just another dynamite/holy/pigeon/cow for the player who is already in advantage on the top. It’d become even easier for the player in advantage to plop a worm once the team underground opens the top. In addition, it’d make the mine opening trick a lot more OP.
Adding Uzi in the scheme is senseless (even overpowered) since it’s essencially the same weapon as the Minigun. So if a player finds Uzi and the other one a Minigun, the one who found Uzi would be pissed on bad luck instead of having found a weapon for a different purpose.
Adding Handgun just adds yet another type of weapon that only does damage and doesn’t let the worm down (or offer any other reasonable tactical value). So you already have Uzi, Dragon Ball, Handgun, Minigun and all others we already have such as Flamethrower, Axe etc. I think it makes the scheme has too many of these weapons, leaving too little room for the tactical-type weapons.
Besides, I had also already tried overpowering these weapons in the past to see how they’d behave and even then didn’t find worth it. It’s also worth noticing that I didn’t create my mole scheme to be a different game as the changes are too subtle and therefore the gameplay and strategy are still the same, I mean, it is supposed to be just a refined TUS version and not a totally new scheme with different values just so people wouldn’t complain calling it custom mole or anything. This is why I decided to simply remove those useless weapons instead of changing their power levels as, again, people would complain the values aren’t the traditional ones.
As for Bazooka, why do you want to make it stronger? It’s the only weapon with such intermediate power level in the scheme.
Dragon Ball could have its power increased sure, but again, never did this so that people won’t complain it’s custom mole with different values.
Fire Punch already has very good tactical values (plopping worms on the top and freeing yourself from a complicated block), so its value doesn’t have to be on the damage side. Not to mention, the worm would fly farther too.
Trivia:
While TUS scheme is by far more superior to Hosting Buddy's one, many people still had to shrug off finding weaker weapons than their opponents. As a result, many people still wanted to fix TUS scheme.
I never saw danie, Nous or anyone else complaining about this in my scheme. Although there can be always games you never find good weapons no matter the scheme.
FMA wanted to fix it by removing 1/2 of the weak weapons, which basically turned the game into a blood-thristy race for crates, since they were all much more likely to be clusters, shotguns and bananas. It was very apparent in my last games with Mazinger in which I had 2x Banana, 5x cluster and I didn't need to worry about anything. Upon taking 6 crates, the game stopped requiring tactics or skills to use the weapons well. Mole attacks lost their significance as well.
lol @ blood-thirsty race for crates; that’s not true at all since math probability doesn’t apply to Worms. How many times have I picked so many crates and no clusters, and how many times I picked 1, 3 max and already found them? You still play as strategically as you do in TUS scheme. If you risk and something goes wrong, the result ends up being the same; there’s no going back after.
Also, you can’t judge any mole scheme just because you had a few games in which you were lucky with crates. This happens in every single mole scheme, not just mine. How many times I only picked top level weapons in the TUS scheme too? You gotta notice that the chances for finding the weapons are equally among them. Just like you found 2 bananas and 6 clusters, you might have found 2 mines and 2 sheep. Sure, you it does become a little bit easier to find the good weapons in my scheme (but obviously not necessarily bananas, clusters and shotguns like you said) since there are 3 crate weapons less in the scheme, but this is for a good reason, so it’s more likely that BOTH players will find good weapons instead of only one of them being the lucky guy in finding clusters and the other player struggling getting shit like dragon ball, uzi and mortar instead of being able to pick at least a bazooka, mine, sheep or whatever, which wouldn’t compensate as much as finding a top level weapon, but it’d still be a lot better than finding those useless ones. And again, because of the lack of those 3 weapons, you might find clusters sooner once your opponent finds them. It seems you have a big fear of your opponent findings clusters when that shouldn’t be the matter. You should understand that a player finding clusters in a mole game is something that can happen from the very first turn just as when they find banana in first turn and kills a worm in the first encounter. It’s a natural scenario you must assume it may happen. And even if it happens, it’s not game over yet. What should matter is that you can also find good weapons to have a balanced game with your opponent’s strong weapons. Both players should be allowed to find good weapons.
I knew that the probability to find all the useful weapons must stay identical to original TUS scheme. Mortar spawns are now simply just replaced with kickass Handgun(-60 dmg), probability of finding everything else stays the same. Since mine can't be freely placed (like Holy Granade), I made it slightly stronger than Holy (-96 hp). Firepunch/Dragon Ball are upgraded from -45hp to -60hp, still allowing you to send the enemy airborne, or down the tunnel. Uzi/Handgun will allow you to destroy any wall next to you, while still finishing off a weak worm. In my opinion all weapons can now co-exist being all a valid threat
You could still leave the mortar in the scheme as long as it’s the same power as it is in HB scheme. The power Ramone set for it is senseless. The weapon is already hard to use because of the required geography. I still chose to leave it out for these 2 reasons: 1) so people won’t complain it’s custom mole by changing the values and 2) because of rare opportunities to use it properly, so you’d still be better off finding a mine or something in most cases. But I’d actually prefer it in the scheme a lot more than a thousand different minigun sizes as it has its only unique functionality.
Is this supposed to be a different mole scheme, which will be played every now and then, or has the intention of improving the TUS mole scheme to be the preferred played scheme?
I don't have the capacity to decide which scheme is official on TUS website. Can it be decided anyhow? Not sure who is in charge of the official TUS schemes in the first place. While Firepunch, Homing Missile, Dragon Ball, Mine, Handgun would be a vast improvement, I still need to consult a few people about Bazooka's power.
Hehehe, good joke. :) Well, I already told you that Fire Punch, Homing and Mine would be a disaster instead of any kind of improvement. As for Bazooka, again, I don’t see what the problem with that weapon even is. lol
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Wow, very good points on Magnus' reply as well.
(https://giphy.com/gifs/michael-jackson-comments-popcorn-pUeXcg80cO8I8)
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Dear Admins, please restore the last 2 postings, cause i only see points! Pinkman wants to read that!
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Join the mole cups, Pinkman. Don't be afraid to be part of legion.
We will wait until the day when we can take out 3x clusters to 1x per crate and will be solved much of the problem with 'clusteration'.
If the cup is worth $200, as the rumors say, I'm in, anyway. :D
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After long consultations with Kaptowka, NouS, Danie and Pinkman I think the scheme is perfectly balanced as for today.
Open the 2 replays in the attachment below (they are also on the scheme's website). You can see every single weapon being put to the test. Just as Kaptowka told to me, clusters and green granade are now equally good weapons.
From these two, I would prefer to find green granades. They deal only -56 dmg but since there are 3x of them, they can repeatedly push enemies down and do medium plops on the roof. If somebody exposes the bottom of a worm, the clusters will cost this player -1 worm but generally speaking Clusters are no threat.
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SIGN UPS ARE OPEN :-* :-*
Here below is a short video of Cluster Bomb Junior in action. Please watch it.
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I have just tested this scheme a bit with Adnan, and.. the longbow still does 2x50 damage. Is this on purpose? :D 100 HP feels way beyond OP damage, considering you nerfed the other weapons too
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I have just tested this scheme a bit with Adnan, and.. the longbow still does 2x50 damage. Is this on purpose? :D 100 HP feels way beyond OP damage, considering you nerfed the other weapons too
It's still very average. Shotgun is = 160 hp, Firethrower = 150 hp, Air strike = 80 hp, Baseball bat = 98/108 hp, Minigun = 100 hp, Cluster 142 hp. Cows 3x 65 hp
Even Team17's official TUS scheme still has power 2x 50 hp in bow. Could you help me understand what weapons are nerfed under bow's power? Granade is only 56 hp because you it can almost always plop somebody from the rooftop or toss the enemy down while destroying the ladder, something that Bow will never do, not to mention that green granades always come with a package of 3 of them.
I heard an opinion "leave green granades at 3x -79 hp, the way they are now"
In my concept of a balance I understand a situation in which I am just as much happy to find:
a) Dynamite (-72)
B) Green Granade (3x 56)
C) Cluster (3x 142 but only if you are under enemy in a steep tunnel or placed under his girder)
And that is exactly how I feel about the current weapons. Dynamite was always pathetic with it's -72 hp compared to 3x 79hp green nukes that could catapult anyone across the map to the space.
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Magnificent told me about a visual modification (Project X) to make Mole actually dark, atmospheric with a few sources of light and nice smooth lighting effects. I will test it to see if it could be ready for February.
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Magnificent told me about a visual modification (Project X) to make Mole actually dark, atmospheric with a few sources of light and nice smooth lightning effects. I will test it to see if it could be ready for February.
not lighting. Lanterns which gives a light.
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Nous, when can we finish our bo3? next time you see me in AG, message me. Kaptowka you too? ;o
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I tried to encourage Adnan to play with Magnificent >5 times on #AG. On a few occasions Magnificent said he is ready to fight, having Adnan online. The match never took place sadly, which points out to Magnificent advancing from #2 position.
In Group 2 it seems like Mazinger had decisive lead in terms of Wins & Losses & Activity in the group. I am heavily divided as to who should advance from #2 position. Is that okay if Danie & Lupastic played extra match Bo3/Bo5 that will reveal the one who will advance?
Yes, Danie had 2 losses in contrast to Lupastic's 1, but he still won 7 rounds! compared to Lupasic's 4 rounds. I think that extra match is almost inevitable.
(soft deadline - February 14, Valentine's Day)
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Don't I need to play against kaptowka as well? oO He is very inactive though. He messaged me on 2 different occasions on AG but I was either AFK, or in a game, and he couldn't wait a bit more.
But I think we can play some time.
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Don't I need to play against kaptowka as well? oO He is very inactive though. He messaged me on 2 different occasions on AG but I was either AFK, or in a game, and he couldn't wait a bit more.
But I think we can play some time.
Alright, please fight Kaptowka as soon as you two can
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In Group 2 it seems like Mazinger had decisive lead in terms of Wins & Losses & Activity in the group. I am heavily divided as to who should advance from #2 position. Is that okay if Danie & Lupastic played extra match Bo3/Bo5 that will reveal the one who will advance?
Yes, Danie had 2 losses in contrast to Lupastic's 1, but he still won 7 rounds! compared to Lupasic's 4 rounds. I think that extra match is almost inevitable.
(soft deadline - February 14, Valentine's Day)
Well, it seems that Lupastic vs Kaptowka's game changes things.
Right now the scores are this way:
(https://files.fm/thumb.php?i=9e5nexwqu)
I don't know if this scoring system is correct since the matches can be bo5 and bo3. And I don't know if the direct confrontation affects this score. But if it helps, I'll leave it as a reference since the group's scores are somewhat tight.
Even so, I think that the "soft deadline" should be extended to see if NouS can complete its games.
At the end of the day Zalo is the host of the cup and I stick to what he decides.
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The scoring system is whatever is perceived as the most fair, when taking into account
1. Wins & Losses
2. Activity (less important than wins & losses)
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sooo now I'm out, right? :X
I wonder, will there ever be a mole shopper cup in which I can make from the group stage into KO? :D
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sooo now I'm out, right? :X
I wonder, will there ever be a mole shopper cup in which I can make from the group stage into KO? :D
You aren't out Lupa, it's all good for now. There are still 4 people that can advance
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Kartowka and I are already playing our games; still undefined. I hope very soon to arrange with Mazingerz.
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Sorry for avoiding the games, it's just I'm too noob to realize how opponents overtake me without any difficulty, plus my brain is tired because of exhaustion from work....
I'll try to arrange games now, and try to bear the defeats. :)
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Semi finals begin!
#1 - Mazinger
#2 - Danie
Explanation:
Mazinger has won 6 rounds, got 2 won matches + won a match directly against Danie
Why Danie on #2 position and not Kaptowka? Well, I would say that Kaptowka has better position to be #2 if he wins 1 more match in the group. Sadly, since the "Special Military Operation", he is gone :/ I hope he will return soon. Also he had bad luck finding NouS online, so we gotta move on with what we have.
Why Danie on #2 position and not Lupastic? Danie won 3 rounds more, and his victories were more decisive. If both players wish to solve it that way, they might play an extra Bo1 match to reveal the winner of #2 place, but only if there is a veto.
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TUS Free League is historically more open to change than TUS Allround/Classic League.
You guys can actually help change the rules & settings if you present your proposed changes with good data to back it up. Even more so if you are all in agreement.
If you have new ideas for schemes which are popular enough, MonkeyIsland can introduce them in TUS Rotated League for one or multiple Seasons. In the past if they were successful enough, they can be promoted to TFL, and then from TFL into TAL now. As we've seen with Big RR/Tower Race, Aerial and Intermediate.
Edit:
TFL actually needs a 3.8 update overhaul, the same as what happened to Allround to include the 3.8 features now available. Now might be a good time for you to have a serious conversation with all Mole Shopper enthusiasts and agree on how it should be played, then propose that to the TUS Staff.
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I agree with Komo, most TFL schemes were uploaded back in 2010/2012 and they are seriously outdated at this point. Golf scheme doesn't have worm collision (worms can block each other while throwing grenades), Battle race scheme has weaponcrates with banana bombs, Boom race doesn't have antisink and so on. All of those schemes would required to be updated. Using HB for hosting these works though, but it would be better to have a fix agreement and scheme over these. I think even the mole shopper scheme should have some refreshment update.
As we requested before, tower race could be separated from big rope race while reporting TUS games, and mine madness should be different from bow and arrows. monkeyisland sadly ignored these requests, while I was surely not alone to ask these ^^
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I agree with Komo, most TFL schemes were uploaded back in 2010/2012 and they are seriously outdated at this point. Golf scheme doesn't have worm collision (worms can block each other while throwing grenades), Battle race scheme has weaponcrates with banana bombs, Boom race doesn't have antisink and so on. All of those schemes would required to be updated. Using HB for hosting these works though, but it would be better to have a fix agreement and scheme over these. I think even the mole shopper scheme should have some refreshment update.
As we requested before, tower race could be separated from big rope race while reporting TUS games, and mine madness should be different from bow and arrows. monkeyisland sadly ignored these requests, while I was surely not alone to ask these ^^
It's not that MonkeyIsland has ignored that request.
You may remember the posts we made about Fort last year? Senator noticed this, MonkeyIsland saw that.
However remember that MonkeyIsland is currently developing a TUS mobile version while upgrading to the next TUS browser version, many of the changes we've proposed will be updated there. Including up to date rules, schemes, map system, chat system etc.
There is a thread where you can suggest ideas:
https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/announcements/tus-mobile-application-33118/
If you do have any ideas, you can post there, or in the Leagues General (https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/leagues-general/) section. There are other threads you can look at as well there.
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It's not that MonkeyIsland has ignored that request.
You may remember the posts we made about Fort last year? Senator noticed this, MonkeyIsland saw that.
However remember that MonkeyIsland is currently developing a TUS mobile version while upgrading to the next TUS browser version, many of the changes we've proposed will be updated there. Including up to date rules, schemes, map system, chat system etc.
There is a thread where you can suggest ideas:
https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/announcements/tus-mobile-application-33118/
If you do have any ideas, you can post there, or in the Leagues General (https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/leagues-general/) section. There are other threads you can look at as well there.
Well anyway I'm hoping these stuff would be fixed for the future ^^ Would be nice