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Cups and Tournaments => Cups and Tournaments Comments => Topic started by: Senator on August 13, 2020, 10:06 AM
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Welcome this Saturday at 5 pm GMT! As the title says, we will play T17 on island maps and also test some other settings previously discussed in Standard Scheme Variants thread (https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/worms-armageddon/standard-scheme-variants-(part-1-competitive-ground-schemes)-25170/).
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Excellent. I don't know yet whether I'll be around on the day, but I'm keeping an eye on this. Complex island maps are so much fun for T17. :D
Oh hey Senator, is it too late to touch the Mortar and Cluster Bomb powers in the scheme for this? Bring them in line with Intermediate's 2/2 instead of the current 3/1, respectively? Or is that not one of the changes you wanted to be testing? I'm honestly okay with either for the tournament, but in general I do prefer 2/2 for all these ground schemes now, makes the most sense to me.
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Awesome. Count me in.
Note that if there were just one thing I could change about this scheme, it'd be changing the water rise rate from 20 to 13 pixels per turn.
Edit: Scratch that. It'd be adding some hotseat time. I really don't like it being 0.
- Bo1 games
I notice the scheme is set to 1 round instead of 0 rounds. So that means in the case of a draw, we click "Play next round" to break the tie, correct?
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Theres my son, where is the rest of my family
Hey Senator, is the wsc from tus the same as the wsc from wsdb? If not, i think it can cause some confusion
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Oh hey Senator, is it too late to touch the Mortar and Cluster Bomb powers in the scheme for this? Bring them in line with Intermediate's 2/2 instead of the current 3/1, respectively? Or is that not one of the changes you wanted to be testing? I'm honestly okay with either for the tournament, but in general I do prefer 2/2 for all these ground schemes now, makes the most sense to me.
Not too late. I made the change.
I notice the scheme is set to 1 round instead of 0 rounds. So that means in the case of a draw, we click "Play next round" to break the tie, correct?
Yes. Stockpiling is off so it only affects the turn order, right?
Hey Senator, is the wsc from tus the same as the wsc from wsdb? If not, i think it can cause some confusion
The scheme file on wsdb has rope knocking off and some glitches disabled, other than that they are the same.
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nice scheme tweaks, id like to click join but i probably wont have time, looks like fun though!
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Oh hey Senator, is it too late to touch the Mortar and Cluster Bomb powers in the scheme for this? Bring them in line with Intermediate's 2/2 instead of the current 3/1, respectively? Or is that not one of the changes you wanted to be testing? I'm honestly okay with either for the tournament, but in general I do prefer 2/2 for all these ground schemes now, makes the most sense to me.
Not too late. I made the change.
Oh! I didn't realize you were open to changing the scheme at this stage. Could you add 5 seconds of hotseat time, please?
(Must say, I do not at all see the logic of making Mortar less than 3 stars. It's virtually never possible to get a significant amount of damage with it anyway.)
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Hey Senator, is the wsc from tus the same as the wsc from wsdb? If not, i think it can cause some confusion
The scheme file on wsdb has rope knocking off and some glitches disabled, other than that they are the same.
So they are not the same and could cause confusion :)
Btw, what glitches are turned off?
Also I dont think water rise is set too high, these games will rarely end in the very late stage of SD, from what I saw.
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Btw, what glitches are turned off?
Roofing (which wouldn't make a difference in island Team17, of course), the Longbow/Baseball Bat angle cheat glitch, and skip-walking.
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Bring them in line with Intermediate's 2/2 instead of the current 3/1, respectively?
For the record I disagree with this; those should both be 3 stars in Team17. But this is not the time or place to debate that.
The thing that's most bothering me here is that you're calling that "Intermediate". Could you please call it "Normal", or "TUS Intermediate"? Standard Intermediate has 3 stars for everything, and I feel this is one of its defining traits.
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Luckless Intermediate :) anyway i agree that both mortar and cluster should stay at power 3 team17 scheme, among all the bananas and other blasty weapons avaible its nothing in comparision and they are mostly used to punish or as a last resort suicide for about 100 damage, its not game breaking, even when cluster has 3 stacks ( you shouldnt normally be able to utilize too many anyway)
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Oh! I didn't realize you were open to changing the scheme at this stage. Could you add 5 seconds of hotseat time, please?
Well, I'm more keen on testing settings that either existed in the original scheme (inf. girders, worm selects, crate probabilities) or that will standardize T17, Inter and Elite (weapon powers). Do people want to test this?
(Must say, I do not at all see the logic of making Mortar less than 3 stars. It's virtually never possible to get a significant amount of damage with it anyway.)
According to KRD, Mortar and Cluster Bomb are OP in Intermediate at 3 stars. The reason why T17 would have them at 2 stars is simply to have the same weapon powers.
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Intermediate is a different kind of thing where 80+ raw damage can only be achieved with super weapons (not counting some bizzare weapon usages like petrol for 100 damage), and power 3 cluster makes it op because it is so easy to use it for a 80+ killing blow. Team17 cant be compared to Inter in op'ness of weapons avaible to you.
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@Senator - Will you be streaming any of this on your channel?
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Yeah actually, I think having Mortar and Cluster Bomb both at 3 star power in Team17 is my second preference, personally. I recognise that the scheme is in concept and practice different enough from league variants of Intermediate that it should be able to sustain those weapons at their standard values, even if you're then still stuck with the weird disparity between getting a single Mortar and three Cluster Bombs from a crate.
So, I'd be pretty happy about doing it this way myself (as you may be able to guess from previous discussions, I am a bit of a standardisation nutter), but I know there have been more than a few players over the years who just straight up hated these cluster weapons being able to do 80+ damage, to target worms who often didn't get the chance to try and hide from it, or simply couldn't justify it over doing something else. Similarly to how introducing Kamikaze to the Team17 scheme would mess with players' late game expectations, powerful Cluster Bombs (Mortars to a lesser extent, I know) feel like they would mess with their notion of what is and isn't a good hide throughout the game, especially since for whatever reason, both T17 and Elite schemes have historically had Cluster Bomb nerfed all the way down to 1 star power. Having them at 2 stars is then a) already a buff compared to what the majority of players are used to and b) actually just quite strong in real terms, not much worse than 3 star power would be.
But yeah anyway, for this one tournament where Senator specifically wants to be testing some of the proposed changes out, I don't think it matters either way. He'll know best what he is and isn't interested in trying out, and we can continue the discussion about the scheme in general elsewhere, as we have been. :P
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@Senator - Will you be streaming any of this on your channel?
Yeah I can stream my games and any remaining games after that but it will be without commentary as always. ::)
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Syc said he'd be streaming his games and maybe other people's too, he's here: https://www.twitch.tv/siliconner
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According to KRD, Mortar and Cluster Bomb are OP in Intermediate at 3 stars. The reason why T17 would have them at 2 stars is simply to have the same weapon powers.
In Intermediate, you have 3 Clusters to begin with, and that is in fact the only weapon in it that can predictably and easily do >90hp damage to a single worm in a common circumstance (a worm standing on a steep slope). So I can see the logic in limiting its power in a scheme closely based on [ Intermediate ].
But in Team17, you have to collect Clusters in a crate, and there are plenty of other weapons you can collect in crates that do about the same damage (Minigun) or much more. And experienced players will know to avoid making themselves vulnerable to Cluster Bomb when possible, anyway.
As for Mortar, I don't see the logic of nerfing it in either Intermediate or Team17. Even in the best of circumstances, which come very rarely, it virtually never does more than ~45hp damage in circumstances where you're not also damaging your own worm, or more than ~58hp damage (not including grave damage) when you are. And while it is theoretically possible to do 70hp or more damage to an enemy worm with Mortar, that is so exceedingly rare to happen in a real game that if you can pull it off, it should be celebrated, not nerfed. But if there is some way that Normal players discovered to predictably do a large amount of damage with standard Mortar, I'd love to know.
(Edit: On level terrain such as a bridge, the floating weapon glitch can be used to get Mortar damage of about 63.5 ± 10.8 hp (n=32). But that'd require using your only rope, and with worms starting at 150hp, that's not much damage to waste a rope on.)
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Final adjustments:
- Power of Mortar reverted to 3 stars
- 5s hot-seat time
- Floating weapon glitch disabled
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According to KRD, Mortar and Cluster Bomb are OP in Intermediate at 3 stars. The reason why T17 would have them at 2 stars is simply to have the same weapon powers.
In Intermediate, you have 3 Clusters to begin with, and that is in fact the only weapon in it that can predictably and easily do >90hp damage to a single worm in a common circumstance (a worm standing on a steep slope). So I can see the logic in limiting its power in a scheme closely based on [ Intermediate ].
But in Team17, you have to collect Clusters in a crate, and there are plenty of other weapons you can collect in crates that do about the same damage (Minigun) or much more. And experienced players will know to avoid making themselves vulnerable to Cluster Bomb when possible, anyway.
As for Mortar, I don't see the logic of nerfing it in either Intermediate or Team17. Even in the best of circumstances, which come very rarely, it virtually never does more than ~45hp damage in circumstances where you're not also damaging your own worm, or more than ~58hp damage (not including grave damage) when you are. And while it is theoretically possible to do 70hp or more damage to an enemy worm with Mortar, that is so exceedingly rare to happen in a real game that if you can pull it off, it should be celebrated, not nerfed. But if there is some way that Normal players discovered to predictably do a large amount of damage with standard Mortar, I'd love to know.
(Edit: On level terrain such as a bridge, the floating weapon glitch can be used to get Mortar damage of about 63.5 ± 10.8 hp (n=32). But that'd require using your only rope, and with worms starting at 150hp, that's not much damage to waste a rope on.)
mortar and cluster only exist in t17 so you can then complain after the match about how you got mortar and clusters :)
No one uses these weapons by choice, only by necessity.
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Pairings done. I can still add players if someone wants to join. PM me on WormNet!
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Oops, I reported because I have never done one of these before, but it turns out you're not supposed to report if you lose. Can someone undo my report?
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Totally forgot :(
Sorry KRD, I guess especially you wanted to play that game vs me :(
edit: n1 kory :D
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Congrats Korydex! That was a huge comeback. :D And thanks everyone for participating!
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Thanks for hosting it, Senator. It was loads of fun!
I did actually want to play it out HHC, yeah. But you're in luck, Run destroyed me in the semis for the both of you; what an ouch that game was. :'(
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Yeah plenty of fun allround. My games against Muzer and KRD were some of the craziest I played since ages, I especially recommend them to watch and laugh (or slap your face). Gotta catch up with some of the others now.