The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Cups and Tournaments => Cups and Tournaments General => Topic started by: DarKxXxLorD on May 21, 2010, 06:14 PM
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nnn sheme - good idea.
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Nice ! :)
Anyway I also suggest to use regular intermediate as a basic schemme.
As U can see TNL league isnt very popular... maybe because of this schemme :-[
Looks like most of players just dont like this version.
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Koras, lmao stop this :D
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yeh I agree with Koras, I much prefer 1 health at sd, better that way!
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Koras is right!
TNL scheme just sucks!
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hehe no ofence Error.... but your opinion isnt valuable :D
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As U can see TNL league isnt very popular... maybe because of this schemme :-[
Lmao, too fat even for you.
TNL scheme is better than NNN classic scheme... Those who rely on SD luck factor won't agree with this, for sure :)
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If think TNL is luckless in SD, but Normal is tradictional...need see what ill be more accepted
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It makes part of the essence of intermediate style/mode the SD 1 hp! It's really never be separated. 1 hp SD, sometimes give an extra emotion and interest that (without it) fast can become too boring. Even more, the strategy of the round (with or without 1hp SD) can be totally different - less strategy without 1 hp reduction.
So, no luck with 1 hp reduction in SD. An experience player should know where SD is iminent and prepare his game and strategy for that reallity. Sometimes only SD can save a very stupid and unfair start position for example.
You can call TNL scheme what you want but, without 1 hp reduction at SD, is not intermediate for sure!
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BTW, you are all invited to join NNN 32th intermediate tourney - with 1 hp reduction at SD - next Sunday at 15h GMT. You can find more infos at www.normalnonoobs.org. Please leave your sign up message in our forum - there is a link to it in the above site.
Cheers intermediate lovers ;)
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It makes part of the essence of intermediate style/mode the SD 1 hp! It's really never be separated. 1 hp SD, sometimes give an extra emotion and interest that (without it) fast can become too boring. Even more, the strategy of the round (with or without 1hp SD) can be totally different - less strategy without 1 hp reduction.
So, no luck with 1 hp reduction in SD. An experience player should know where SD is iminent and prepare his game and strategy for that reallity. Sometimes only SD can save a very stupid and unfair start position for example.
You can call TNL scheme what you want but, without 1 hp reduction at SD, is not intermediate for sure!
Putting clusters under worms on slopes is part of the essence of intermediate! Without possibility to kill a worm with one cluster that fast can become too boring. Even more, the strategy of the round can be totally different - players will have to avoid such a lame hides.
So, no disbalance with 3* clusters. An experience player should know that the death on a slope is iminent and prepare his game and strategy for that reallity.
You can call NNNL scheme what you want but, without 3* clusters, is not intermediate for sure!
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It makes part of the essence of intermediate style/mode the SD 1 hp! It's really never be separated. 1 hp SD, sometimes give an extra emotion and interest that (without it) fast can become too boring. Even more, the strategy of the round (with or without 1hp SD) can be totally different - less strategy without 1 hp reduction.
So, no luck with 1 hp reduction in SD. An experience player should know where SD is iminent and prepare his game and strategy for that reallity. Sometimes only SD can save a very stupid and unfair start position for example.
You can call TNL scheme what you want but, without 1 hp reduction at SD, is not intermediate for sure!
Putting clusters under worms on slopes is part of the essence of intermediate! Without possibility to kill a worm with one cluster that fast can become too boring. Even more, the strategy of the round can be totally different - players will have to avoid such a lame hides.
So, no disbalance with 3* clusters. An experience player should know that the death on a slope is iminent and prepare his game and strategy for that reallity.
You can call NNNL scheme what you want but, without 3* clusters, is not intermediate for sure!
I don't like oranges because I have few coats.
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I don't like oranges because I have few coats.
(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9779/angryorange.jpg)
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lol TT cluster power have to be 2 star
As in orginal intermediate from wwp!!:)
I think its one of reasones why noone played intermediate at wa till NNN clan moved here ;D
"TNL scheme is better than NNN classic scheme.."
U can call it as U want but in fact its just intermediate without crates, i prefer call it luckless:)
"Those who rely on SD luck factor won't agree with this, for sure"
lol nt, if I remeber well we played on TNL schemme and it wont change anything.Just finish of every round was more boring..
NNN scheme is better than TNL experimental scheme......but this guys who cant think at all wont agree with this*
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lol TT cluster power have to be 2 star
Thx cap, that was a grotesque
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lol TT cluster power have to be 2 star
Thx cap, that was a grotesque
rotfl its not discussion about my poor english, so typical for You :)
especially when U dont have arguments at all ;D
If U want give me some free english lessons fix my upgraded version.
Cluster nade must have a power of two stars!*
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rotfl its not discussion about my poor english, so typical for You :)
Lol? I'm okay with your English, I'm well used to it. "Grotesque" is that ridiculous shit about cluster power.
especially when U dont have arguments at all ;D
At least I'm not using arguments like "1hp SD is essential" or "TNL scheme sux, I dislike it, because I do" :) Well, anyway, arguing about this is pointless, as we won't come to agreement. So I'm just having fun, and you are doing the same :)
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What's the problem with the argument "1hp SD is essential"? I pointed some reasons to justify it btw. If you think otherwise, ok. But this argument is totally valid.
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1HP ftw, 1HP all the way, if you dont like 1HP, gtf away.
No reduction, YOU HAVING A LAFFFF???, f@#! no reduction that choice is SWAAAAAG!
I really think TNL should just use the onl scheme with reduction at SD. Seeing as most of the inter players are used to this way of playing, it makes sense to use the scheme that they are already acustomed to.
Why was it changed? Oh yeh it was changed back when inter could be played as a league pick and a couple of people who had no clue about the scheme whined about reduction. Bad move, it really should be changed back.
Reduction can change everything, it also gives you another chance of winning if you've been unlucky with placement, especially on cave maps. Reduction makes things fairer, really!
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My propose - to arrange the voiting, between participants of tournament. And my vote for ONL-scheme!
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My propose - to arrange the voiting, between participants of tournament ("which scheme must be main?"). And my vote for ONL-scheme!
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couple of people who had no clue about the scheme whined about reduction
Who?
it also gives you another chance of winning if you've been unlucky with placement, especially on cave maps. Reduction makes things fairer, really!
Ye lmao, if you were unlucky with placement, you may get some luck back with SD. I love this kind of logic :D
if you've been unlucky with placement
That's why inter is played bo3 or bo5.
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couple of people who had no clue about the scheme whined about reduction
Who?
no1 you know
Ye lmao, if you were unlucky with placement, you may get some luck back with SD. I love this kind of logic :D
So you agree, good.
That's why inter is played bo3 or bo5.
Ye, and what does the number of rounds have to do with the fact that reduction at SD can help you if you have an unlucky round?
Instead of being sarcastic, why not explain why you disagree with me?
There are arguments both for and against reduction at SD, I argue that it is better this way for reasons ive already explained.
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no1 you know
Apparently, no1 you know :)
Instead of being sarcastic, why not explain why you disagree with me?
There are two kinds of schemes: basically lucky ones (shopper, team17 (inb4 angry t17 fanboys bashing me for this), comet dodging) and those which pretend to rely on players' skills (ttrr, elite, bng). I believe that intermediate is the scheme from second category. It's essential (c) to develop the rules for these schemes in the way which reduces amount of luck, right? Another point is that you can't neutralize luck with luck. That means, if you put more lucky elements in the game, you shouldn't expect to get something more fair than it was before. Conversely, you'll get something even more luck-based. And 1hp SD is exactly that element of luck - you may calculate the time when round timer turns 0, but still SD may come that turn or the turn after that.
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Haha ... just saw a replay of Koras in OnL, and he chatted about new Inter cup at TuS ... came here and already having a deja vu. Same old discussions over and over, (@Nail) reminds me why there are, and should be separate communities in worms. :P
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Intermediate Tourney! When? Sunday, 30/05/2010 at 16 GMT. NNN clan hosts his 32th One-evening-tourney at #RopersHeaven
Setted scheme is OnL scheme :p Except both players agree on TNL scheme (if they wish, they can also play shoppa instead of TNL scheme :p )
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hehe no ofence Error.... but your opinion isnt valuable
hm... kinda more valuable than ur in about 9 points. go make it less... btw stil 9 after ur post lel.
ah well, i have noticed that most all-rounder players think neutral (or +/-) about both tnl and nnnl. but almost nnn clan (where 1-2 all-rounder players at all) snagin around when hear something about tnl... so i think imo there are 2 reasons: they deffending their scheme from all coasts... or just scary...
if 1st reason: omg why??? is there ne1 who wnats to destroy, annihilate or exterminate ur nnnl scheme?
if 2nd reason: why so f@#!ing pawning pros of intermediate scheme just kinda avoiding alternative scheme? cuz talks = avoiding (IMO!). eya! show ur skills.
btw, about me. yes i prefer tnl, but i NEVER talk something like "oh f@#! f@#! why do u use this lame schme from this damn site of sensless rr and noob shopper lovers? lets play true normal scheme" when my oponent ask me about playing with nnnl.... i just chenge it, and play... but all of u talk! i repeat imfo - talks = avoiding... so just lets play! this is imo kinda better ...
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lol Error, Koras ownes you in both schemes, TNL and NNN scheme. Doesn't matter which of this two schemes you pick. That's what he tried to pointed out, by calling your opinion 'not valuable'.
You wonder why we ask for playing NNN scheme? Humm... let's think.. Maybe because it's the scheme of our league and we play it all the time?! And we are the biggest part of Intermediate players at all?! Just an assumption. I don't know the participations list of last Intermediate tourney here, but I guess more then 80% played regular in our league, or at least is used to play NNN scheme when playing Intermediate.
And you still wonder why we ask for NNN scheme?!
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u answer me nothing...
ADDED: and u think that valueability depends on skills?
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ADDED: and u think that valueability depends on skills?
Shall I ask you, if forum ranks (popularity) decides about 'valueability'? Better not :D Sigh!
Yes, it depends of skills. Because good skills means also to know the issue. Koras has a considerably deeper look into worms strategy then you.
Maybe we should play a 'tourney' of NNN-luckless supporters versus TNL supporters. Doesn't matter which of this schemes will be played. Like a clan war. Someone wants to bet on TNL supporters for win?
u answer me nothing...
I tried to explain you the reason why we ask for NNN scheme. Or what else did you asked? No, it isn't the reason we are scared...
BTW. personaly I don't call for NNNL scheme as standard scheme. It's a TUS tourney and we all have to accept it, when we want to participat. No reason for complains, just wanted to clearify some things here.
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so talk to Koras and tell him not start this talks... cuz he cant hear me...
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lol Error, Koras ownes you in both schemes, TNL and NNN scheme. Doesn't matter which of this two schemes you pick. That's what he tried to pointed out, by calling your opinion 'not valuable'.
You wonder why we ask for playing NNN scheme? Humm... let's think.. Maybe because it's the scheme of our league and we play it all the time?! And we are the biggest part of Intermediate players at all?!
Joschi, stop showing everybody your butthurts :) You smite and insult people with different opinions and start lame troll war instead of answering questions each time you come here. That makes damn good image for NNN clan and personally you, hehe.
Someone wants to bet on TNL supporters for win?
:D
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Really nice of you, NN. You help other people, who aren't able to change arguments at a low level. Sadly you missed the points. Maybe on a second try?
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You help other people, who aren't able to change arguments at a low level.
Wut?
Sadly you missed the points. Maybe on a second try?
Wut?
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"low level". insulting ne1?
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I still not to understand why you think that 1hp SD reduction is a lucky based thing. If both players know that it will happen and (an experienced player) can estimate when it will happen, their game should be planned for that fact. I think that the 1hp SD reduction, most of the times, should and can be very clever planned and needs very good know-how of the game in tactics and strategy issues.
So, an issue (1hp SD reduction) that adds more emotion and tactics to the game, is much, but very much more than a "lucky" aspect.
I think that the better analogy is a ladder that at the end there is a playoff (based in the places of the ladder). If the PO don't exists, it can be all decided very soon and than everything is bored until the end. With the PO, there will be interest until the end, but who has the better ladder places, start the PO with the advantage. Like in 1hp SD reduction.
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i dont think that sd red is luck based thing. even more i have nothing against nnnl scheme at all...
i just cant understend why Koras (not me, Jhoschi, TenoriTaiga or else) have started this disscision...
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Imagine two boxers competing in the long bout. The one is leading the fight, winning each round by points, but still fails to finish with KO. What is the logical end for the fight then? Yeah, the winner is that one who has more points, earning them during the whole match. And now just imagine that after the end of 11th round announcer says, "SD, bitches!" and discards their points. So then few lucky punches in round 12 may decide the whole match! Lame? Sure, it is.
I still not to understand why you think that 1hp SD reduction is a lucky based thing.
This:
you may calculate the time when round timer turns 0, but still SD may come that turn or the turn after that.
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even more i have nothing against nnnl scheme at all...
Yeah same, but this discussion is just funny :)
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Imagine two boxers competing in the long bout. The one is leading the fight, winning each round by points, but still fails to finish with KO. What is the logical end for the fight then? Yeah, the winner is that one who has more points, earning them during the whole match. And now just imagine that after the end of 11th round announcer says, "SD, bitches!" and discards their points. So then few lucky punches in round 12 may decide the whole match! Lame? Sure, it is.
Well, both boxers already knew from previous that almost all points will be discarded. Almost, because the boxer with more points still (in the majority cases) has the advantage at the beginning of 12th round. And there are no lucky punches! :P Still, both boxers must adjust their style of fighting depending of their points (after the SD) at the beginning of 12th round.
Btw, what the interest of a 12th round if it's impossible the player with less points, make a KO? People would stop watching the fight when they realize the impossibility of the turn around KO, right?
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blebleble...
run it pls :-\ :-\
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Imagine two boxers competing in the long bout. The one is leading the fight, winning each round by points, but still fails to finish with KO. What is the logical end for the fight then? Yeah, the winner is that one who has more points, earning them during the whole match. And now just imagine that after the end of 11th round announcer says, "SD, bitches!" and discards their points. So then few lucky punches in round 12 may decide the whole match! Lame? Sure, it is.
I still not to understand why you think that 1hp SD reduction is a lucky based thing.
This:
you may calculate the time when round timer turns 0, but still SD may come that turn or the turn after that.
Even without health reduction this is still as you say a "luck element". If your one of the few players who manage to sucessfully count the round time down to 0 and are expecting the water to rise and plop a worm on the floor, yet SD comes a turn later and the worm survives, that is also unlucky right?
Players are not always rewarded for succesfully scoring points for the duration of a game, the game isnt over untill its over and both players are aware of this. Both players are also aware, that if there has been no "KO" after a certain period of time, then it will come down to SD. You could compare this to penalties at the end of a football match. Even if one side seemed to dominate the game for the whole 90 minutes, yet had not managed to "win", then it would all come down to a few shots at the end of the game.
The thing is, when players are aware of the fact that there will be health reduction at SD they may prepare for it. Reduction at SD can really shake up the gameplay and forces players come up with appropriate strategies in order to secure success. In my opinion it makes the scheme even more exciting, intresting and skilfull.
On the otherhand I can understand why people would prefer not having reduction, but it comes down to nothing more than personal preference. The only reason you seem to think it so "lucky", is that "you can count down the round time to 0, yet sd can come on the turn after that". If this was such a big problem then the top inter players wouldnt have winning streaks in the numbers they do, seeing as your more than likely to come across a situation like this say every 10 games...
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1 HP SD is cool and fair on tied matches. Unfortunately, this is not always the case.
Example:
Team A: 2 worms left with 50 and 90 HP
Team B: 2 worms left with 10 and 15 HP
1 HP SD comes and the first turn after that is for Team B... oh my...
Of course Team A may be aware of SD coming, but it's lame if you have such advantange over your opponent and then having to run away like a girl deep into the ground xD
And for the football example, there's extra time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_time) before penalty kicks (for important games) and that could be compared in worms to the "poison" SD :>
Nevertheless, this is the opinion of a non-conventional player. ::) I also think that the Intermediate scheme should be played with 6 worms manually placed, not with 8 worms randomly placed. So if you're an elitist, feel free to disregard this post. xD
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lel no more changes....
btw summary coming soon XD
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Too lazy to read it, Nail, sorry :)
Disregard that, read your post. Well, I can remember Mablak losing to me just because of SD, and I can remember myself losing to less skilled players so many times because of this (and winning too, for sure).
Also, Joschi, would you be kind enough to stop smiting me, thanks ^^
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Hm well it's kind of silly to say one team is winning or has an advantage simply because of their health, especially when talking about intermediate with HP reduction. Not to mention that resources and number of worms are better indicators of who is winning than health, in inter.
More difficulty in seeing who's winning and who has an advantage makes a scheme more complex in any case, as that kind of judgment is a major skill. It allows for much more variety in your game in terms of offense / defense; simply sensing that you're going to lose way ahead of time if you keep attacking allows you better preparation for SD, and likewise, sensing early on that you're on the path to winning allows you to be more aggressive / take shorter turns.
Basically HP reduction just allows for more ways to counter your opponent's plans, and makes the scheme more complex and thoughtful to me.
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well... summary is that nnnl is good when u loosing cuz u can comeback and tnl is good when u wining cuz it protect u from hp red.
so choose nnnl against harder oponent and tnl against easier oponent! :D
ADDED: combine of this is nnnl with NUCLEAR TEST on sd... xD
Lets create 3rd scheme of intermediate!! :D
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Okay, combining Nail's and Mablak's posts to answer: yes, the problem for me is that SD moment is unpredictable. Such a dramatic change of game situation can't be random. I may agree with the fact that it may spawn some interesting strategies and such. But, I guess you know about another aspect of this, pretty ugly one, the thing called "waiting for SD". Some players build the whole game in the way that they just jerk around, doing nothing special and wasting their time on purpose, and this really pisses me off sometimes.
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Waiting for SD, in NNNL scheme, is a part of the strategy and the game become interesting because the opponent of the player who wants to wait for SD is not interested that he can achieve this, than they will put the strategy in practice for it. And, with respect for you TT but, the "this pisses me off" argument is not the best one ;)
But, since the majority of the people who posted here, the majority of the people who will play the cup (and that people, you know, are the top and best players in this style, so the ones who has the stronger and better knowledge from the style) seemed to prefer the NNN luckness scheme, why not NNNl scheme be the default and only if 2 players agree with it, playing with TNL?
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the game become interesting because the opponent of the player who wants to wait for SD is not interested that he can achieve this
Lol, come on, watching how people just wait turn by turn doesn't make the game more interesting in any way.
the "this pisses me off" argument is not the best one
Well, I've heard the same from many people. Your friend Koras is one of them, btw.
But, since the majority of the people who posted here, the majority of the people who will play the cup (and that people, you know, are the top and best players in this style, so the ones who has the stronger and better knowledge from the style) seemed to prefer the NNN luckness scheme, why not NNNl scheme be the default and only if 2 players agree with it, playing with TNL?
Because this is the cup hosted by TUS. Host yours and play it with NNN scheme, why not?
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It piss me off only when i have huge adventage and enemy wait for SD:) just waste of time....
Mablak You should sign up!
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the "this pisses me off" argument is not the best one
Well, I've heard the same from many people. Your friend Koras is one of them, btw.
So, if others say some stupiditys I can say it too. hmmm
But, since the majority of the people who posted here, the majority of the people who will play the cup (and that people, you know, are the top and best players in this style, so the ones who has the stronger and better knowledge from the style) seemed to prefer the NNN luckness scheme, why not NNNl scheme be the default and only if 2 players agree with it, playing with TNL?
Because this is the cup hosted by TUS. Host yours and play it with NNN scheme, why not?
Ouch. This is so open minded! Let me say what I think: "Me, TT, I'm the TUS boss. We will organize an "intermediate" cup. If it would not was the presence of ONL guys, this cup would be enven more sad than our TNL. But even that, we will play this cup with our TNL scheme! The majority of the players prefer the NNNL scheme, but we can not allow it to be the default scheme because we are TUS! The rival of NNN comunity! They are the enemy! Even if they have the well known of intermediate, and explained us that our TNL scheme is a crap, what I had nothing better to say that waiting for SD pisses me off, we can not allow it!! Because we are TUS! Because they are ONL guys! Because yes! Because this pisses me off! Because I'm the boss! Because, because, hmm... because what, btw?!?!"
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because, because, because....
enemy :D
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So, if others say some stupiditys I can say it too. hmmm
Sure, if you have no own head on the shoulders.
Ouch. This is so open minded! Let me say what I think: "Me, TT, I'm the TUS boss. We will organize an "intermediate" cup. If it would not was the presence of ONL guys, this cup would be enven more sad than our TNL. But even that, we will play this cup with our TNL scheme! The majority of the players prefer the NNNL scheme, but we can not allow it to be the default scheme because we are TUS! The rival of NNN comunity! They are the enemy! Even if they have the well known of intermediate, and explained us that our TNL scheme is a crap, what I had nothing better to say that waiting for SD pisses me off, we can not allow it!! Because we are TUS! Because they are ONL guys! Because yes! Because this pisses me off! Because I'm the boss! Because, because, hmm... because what, btw?!?!"
NNN members are so friendly :)
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Alright.
To have a real discussion is necessary to have an open mind and flexibility.
Not worth wasting time when a person decides to be against just because of stubbornness and pride.
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Alright.
To have a real discussion is necessary to have an open mind and flexibility.
Not worth wasting time when a person decides to be against just because of stubbornness and pride.
It's funny how you did point out the thing which is fittingly applicable to you. :)
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Hmm... ok! Wasn't my intention to add another post in this thread but:
@NNN members: stop it plz! ok? Obviously the discussion isn't going anywhere and my deja-vu sensation is present again :P
We have mature members that i'm sure will value the time spend on this endless topic, so let's forget it and play and kick ass like we did before :P
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and sometimes conflict is very healthy to a community due to the fact that it brings changes and new stuff. Of course this isn't the case of tus intermediate cup discussion about TNL vs NNNL. Every community has it's particularities ... and it's a good thing imo.
Peace!
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Thank you, Antares, you keep my belief alive.
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Some players build the whole game in the way that they just jerk around, doing nothing special and wasting their time on purpose, and this really pisses me off sometimes
these are the players who I play only once in this life :) playing with such "unlucky" opponent, is it worth to stop and discuss about reducing HP or not?