The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Leagues => Leagues Complaints => Topic started by: avirex on May 12, 2015, 03:09 PM
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https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-190456/
start from 24:00
TOMT fell without collecting his cr8, and after his turn, sudden death was announced.
i felt as if i can collect cr8, and attack... after all, that is the standard rule above anything else(crate before attack)... stylez however felt i should have touched 2 walls before an attack.
My questions are this:
1) what if i had touched both walls, but left the crate until my retreat time... i believe i would have people yelling cow at me then as well... i was kind of under the impression that because my opponent made the mistake of leaving a crate behind, i could capitalize on this, by collecting his crate and attacking... i dont think his mistake should make me do more work!! such as both collecting cr8, and touching walls before attack.
2) what about if a crate does not fall anywhere, and the game does not officially declare sudden death?? is this your lucky day?? you can attack with no obligations?
RULES: - Crate before attack (CBA): You must collect a health crate before attacking your opponent (touch both walls instead at sudden death). If you break this rule you aren't allowed to attack the next turn.
this leaves things kind of open ended, i must collect a health crate before attacking my opponent, and i did so.... but then it says touch both walls instead at sudden death....
also, its important to know (just in case the mods dont watch the rest of the game) that i did make another cow directly after that "possible cow" i went wall 2 wall, but on my second wall i did a common mistake of a shadow, rather then a drop down/spike in order to touch the wall.... so, i failed to touch both walls before attack, stylez for some reason accuses me of doing this on purpose. (despite my 2v1 advantage, healthy lead, and 200hp worm) and i know this is just a "he said she said" situation, but i absolutely did not do it on purpose, i was not even aware i did it until they told me so... but thats besides the point, after i realized i did in fact miss a wall, i skipped my following turn (i even went w2w before skip, just for good measures)
@stylez: in the future, you have to finish the game, its important that you know this, because dt could indeed declare the win just for the simple fact that you quit... so in future games, always finish, and then make a complaint if needed.
but, i do not want to take the win for that reason (quit) if i did do 2 cows in a row, and only took penalty for one, i think the game should be void, and re-matched.
i also think the MODS should not just make a decision, and jump to the next complaint, they should make the rules surrounding crates, and wall to wall much more clear.
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I would agree with you avi, I always assumed that as long as there was a crate on the map you could still CBA instead of w2w. Another example of the rules needing to be a bit more specific though.
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You guys question things that have been clear for more than a decade. When the gong sounds, you have to w2w no matter how many crates there are in the map lol. You do wall to wall, if there is even a gift of health around, good for you.
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from http://worms2d.info/Roper:
Rules: AFR, CBA, KTL, use bazooka in your first turn, WBA in Sudden Death when no crate is available.
I think that is pretty clear. The tus rules are not specific... if what you are saying is the case it should say so.
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You guys question things that have been clear for more than a decade. When the gong sounds, you have to w2w no matter how many crates there are in the map lol. You do wall to wall, if there is even a gift of health around, good for you.
Actually that's not entirely correct the rules are not 100% sound.
Crate before attack (CBA): You must collect a health crate before attacking your opponent (touch both walls instead at sudden death). If you break this rule you aren't allowed to attack the next turn.
The rule is collect a crate before attacking your opponent, if there is still a crate on the map, then this applies.
There are 2 sides of the arguement here:
1) It does say "touch both walls instead at sudden death" however this can be argued that there was a crate left so you did follow the rule of "crate before attack".
2) It does say "touch both walls instead at sudden death" which one can argue must be followed regardless of crates remaining.
Both sides of the arguement are actually perfectly valid, however personally I would accept collecting any remaining crates then attacking as acceptable because of the fact the touch both walls instead at sudden death part doesn't specifically state this should still be followed if there are crates remaining.
If the decision was mine to update this rule, I would allow for CBA to be acceptable even after SD begins if there are crates left, after all it's the players responsibility to collect their own crates, and they should accept the consequences of their failures.
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I know Komo, makes sense but Roper rules need to be cleared up then, as people seem to forget what they always been like (or am I the only one who thinks like this?) , maybe in order to find a loophole to their advantage. Once sudden death is on, wall to wall should take precedence over cba.
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edit: i deleted the entire post, all this has been said in the other thread... you all know where it is...
rU, you are 100% wrong saying its been clear for over a decade, spleen posted a reference to prove you wrong.
w2dinfo has been around longer then TUS, and has been around longer then you.. you have not even been around over a decade :P
anyways, lets just keep this thread for the MODS, if anyone wants to comment on what the rules should, or shouldnt be, go to the "updating rules" thread, there is a discussion regarding this complaint there as well..
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lol ur crazy avi, no wonder you're not becoming a mod.
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im not sure what that has to do with anything....
your post just came off overly cocky, as if we are all stupid for even considering crate before attack should take precedence over a w2w.
but yeah, no wonder ;)
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lol it's been clear for more than 2 decades at least.. I've never seen nor heard that there is CBA allowed if SD already appeared. Most players usually do w2w with collecting the cr8 but seems like nowadays ppl ain't strong enough to do so and have to take it's shortest way to attack...
No offense at all but your long posts, here and everywhere else, are mostly nothing more than vacous: avi+komo.
We all know you wanna show some good appearence to strenghten your mod application n shitz BUT you can even go more into detail on every single rule and then pots even longer posts.. This doesn't change the fact of uncleared state of the official rules.
To be honest I'm 100% sure that every experienced wormer knows what the rules mean but unfortunately it has become that every1 just interprets the shit he wants.. Plus I'm again 100% sure ALL of YOU been always doing w2w in SD even if there was a cr8 and you just collected it as an "extra" - like leroy said. ALL of YOU, expect komo since he avoids games like they could give him aids..
All these threads became some touch of a court.. every1 arguing like they were the best f@#!in lawyers in town. This should happen in something like a "suggestion" thread between mods but not in every f@#!ing complain or elsewhere...
Okay last words now because I'm tired of long posts and can't believe I'm actually responding with such a load of post.. D:!!
Lmfao at quoting the rules from worms2d.info. Yeah, there are basic schemes rules etc.. But are you serious by using sources that ain't getting updated in any kind actually? If that's the right way to win a discussion or to win someone's mind then I'm even more out of this whole sheeeeeeeet..
gg
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i made it very clear i do no want to be mod, so you can talk out your ass, like when you say i did any 'cow' on purpose, or when you say going w2w is more important then collecting a crate.... but, it all means nothing... example.
"the rules have been the same for 2 decades"
5mins later
"lol at quoting the rules from a website that has not been updated in a decade"
"All these threads became some touch of a court.. every1 arguing like they were the best f@#!in lawyers in town." so you see ladies and gentleman of the jury! i rest my case!!
im not just interpreting rules how i want to see them to gain advantage like your accusing me... dude, i had over 200hp, a 2v1 worm advantage, and you guys were about a hit away each from being dead, do you really think i needed to cheat on top of all that? i could have had f@#!ing chelsea finish you guys off.
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Lmfao at quoting the rules from worms2d.info. Yeah, there are basic schemes rules etc.. But are you serious by using sources that ain't getting updated in any kind actually?
Lmfao at typing out that great long post and not having a single piece of evidence to back you up.
And I thought you said the rules had not changed in two decades so who cares if it is not updated?
seems like nowadays ppl ain't strong enough to do so and have to take it's shortest way to attack...
Only thing that has changed is that now people will fight to the death over 20 tus points... you lost one roper man, it is not the end of the world.
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Saying that people aren't strong enough to collect crate and do w2w is pretty much the same as someone playing a Roper like a Warmer, sure it might show a bit more skill but it's a waste of time and not needed, there is a difference between doing only what you need to do to get the job done, and not being able to go the extra mile, it's not like they will build a statue of you at T17 headquarters because you spent an extra 4-5 seconds in a turn.
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Lets just wait to see what the mods say... i think crate before attack is the main rule of rope, and i did just that... but obviously others think that the w2w rule is more important (seems odd to me that anyone would really think that)
if something as simple as a crate before attack, rather than a w2w is the cause of so much debate, then one thing is clear... the rules need to be updated, im not really sure why it took 6 years (or however long TUS has been around, sorry numbers natzi) but, we are taking steps to improve them, so lets all be happy :D
More importantly, lets end this thread... stylez is a friend of mine, its a shame the vague rules have caused a petty riff, but that's all right, this will be over soon, and we can move on... and hopefully when the rules change, this bullshit happens less frequently.
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Correct me if I'm wrong. The w2w rule got in there to make up for the time there are no crates. To keep the "15 seconds challenge" going on. So as long as there are crates to collect, there's no need to go for w2w.
Senator also made a good point in the other thread, there's one turn before SD when no crates drop and SD doesn't start either. In that turn we do w2w because there are no crates. It's safe to say that w2w rule is a replacement for the crate collecting challenge.
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correct you if your wrong, ok...
I made that point, not senator.
everything else is more then correct i believe... the rules are pretty open ended, so i can see where there is confusion to an extent... but the main rule in roper is crate before attack, and i think we can all agree to that. So im just not sure why anyone would think w2w trumps cba.
anyway, what your saying is my cba turn was not a cow.... what about my second turn? i failed to touch wall (not on purpose) and then i took a penalty of a skipped turn (i even did a w2w for good sportsmanship) is that a fair penalty?? you ok with that?? stylez suggested that i damage my worm.
if your ok with that, then the win is good. gg
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Can't believe how I, and many people, have been apparently wrong for so many years :o
even in wwp, w2w always took precedence over cba if sudden death was on.
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"even in wwp" lol
rU, who are the many people? you and stylez??
majority have sided with crate before attack is always accepted.
you still have not answered the question of what happens when no crate falls, but sudden death has not been officially announced, or as you like to say "the gong has not sounded" ?? what should happen then?? it it just your lucky day?
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"even in wwp" lol
rU, who are the many people? you and stylez??
majority have sided with crate before attack is always accepted.
you still have not answered the question of what happens when no crate falls, but sudden death has not been officially announced, or as you like to say "the gong has not sounded" ?? what should happen then?? it it just your lucky day?
Majority? just three cats posting in tus forums lol.
Forget about the gong lol, I know what you mean. Senator corrected it well ... no crate spawns in your turn, go for the walls lol. Simple.
Anyway I can't be assed anymore, too many changes here, this is never going to get solid after 7 years. I don't enjoy playing tus anymore anyway, people just try to find loopholes and take shit too serious. I will stick to funners in wormnet, as any pedestrian ;) good luck with your league and your new rules.
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Can't believe how I, and many people, have been apparently wrong for so many years :o
even in wwp, w2w always took precedence over cba if sudden death was on.
Many people? Like who lol? I also played WWP for a few years when it was 1st released, I was even voted best Roper on WWP in Plutonics league and still I never heard of anyone using the w2w rule if crates were available, or were you trying to use WWP as an example hoping that no one here ever played it lol? :P
Anyway, regardless of the past, what is more important is how you feel presently.
Which would you pick:
1) When SD begins, w2w should be followed regardless.
2) When SD begins, if crates are available you must follow CBA.
3) When SD begins, If crates are available the player has the choice to CBA or w2w.
Presonally, I would vote for #3.
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alright I've spoken to some wormers, retired and not retired. Things happens to be like this:
Since some time ago, CBA took precedence over w2w if sudden death comes and there are still crates around.
Retired wormers told me that W2W always took precedence over cba, as they aren't aware of what's been happening in the past years.
I've also been on and off, (more off than on) so I wasn't either aware that the rules changed.
So the problem finally is, this rule didn't spread and then arguments like this comes up.
Definitely, the rules need to be rewritten and specify every case lol.
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rU who exactly told you that w2w always took precedence over CBA, and how reliable are they? Do they have evidence? I know it doesn't really matter if it's true or not but as a passionate player of this game I am very curious.
I've played WA very actively since June 12th 1999, I remember my 1st game as if it were yesterday, I participated in many League Ropers since WACL and i've never experienced this, I certainly do not remember it being in any rulebook, perhaps it is possible it was an unwritten rule for some players? Would the WACL rules still be up somewhere, maybe that way back machine thing?
It doesn't even logically make sense which is why I can't understand why anyone would say it used to be like this, however back in 1999-2003 maps weren't as evil as they are now they were quite simple and most games would never reach SD.
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im kind of curious too.. lol.. why say "i spoke to some retired wormers" and not offer names??
i agree with komo, it really does not logically make sense.... the reason being is, "crate before attack" is the number one rule of roper, and i do not think anyone can argue that.
@komo: lets leave the "which would you pick" debate to the "update schemes" thread please... i spoke to some retired wormers, and they agree that the TUS rules are in desperate need of updating!! ;) but this is not the place for that.
@MI: if you have no issues with my last turn cow, and the penalty i chose to take, the win is legit, and this thread can be locked.
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I do recall that CBA is always prioritized in older leagues, TUS seems to be the first league that created this "instead" of CBA w2w. That's why I was also confused to see the rule in the first place. We need a change log where we can see when, who and most importantly why the rules got changed.
Obviously, under current rules I'd still say avirex turn was a cow because it seems to be replacing CBA once SD hits.
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@avirex, the penalty you took for the cow, is legit. Game stands.
You can continue the debate on the scheme updates thread.