after those all lame bngs with WM, which uses 4 sec instead zook even while no wind, I was so happy that CF is gonna to pick bng. I thought, yeah, at last I will get some nice skilled bng, but... unfortunely CF was even lamer than WM... I have nothing against SPW, he was ok, but Random, after we got advantage after few good shots started to use darkhides, then moved in the center of the map, there was clearly less than half of the screen to lalo worm, cried about 1 hp and told us to not play cheap (rolling nades) while he was sitting underground. Thought you will show us how good player you are, but now I see you get no fun, everything for the win.
You can all smite me, I don't care, but I'm not any kind of asslicker. And watch this f@#!ing game before.
I guess I will have to start to play a2b, because on tus there are only lame players in bng, even so great clan like CF plays like shit.
Even Komo couldn't stand this game.
Random04s can't believe :o
Why are you saying I couldn't stand it? I was frustrated for other reasons.
I ain't getting involved with this one.
hum, you got me wrong, that's probably because of my poor english.
I meant that you couldn't stand it, if you were in game.
Im just doing an analysis of this game now to see why noone enjoyed it.
So let's start with hides at start. I think you can compare Maciej's hide with SPW's hide. Both are quite good, no 3s shots possible, but 5s lg works fine there.
I don't have that much cover in my hide, but Im also just able to throw 5s lg; no 3s. But lalo cant even throw 5s lg nade from where he hided. And it's also almost impossible to directly hit him with a nade (just 4s, which wouldnt be timed well at all). So I think a different hide there could have made things better.
Except some 4s full power shots from lalo (because of his hide) everything is quite ok. I mean even throwing two 4s full power nades isnt a big deal if you change your strategy then and move or try some different shot as lalo did then. His well thrown 5s max nade (around 5:10) pushed my worm under a tree where I was still able to zook with a few winds.
Now we come to a point in bng where you have hundreds of different definitions of what darksiding is. A few months or even weeks ago I personally would call my position darksiding which means that I should move in my upcoming turn. Now I think that it's ok to have a few shots with zook if the wind is ok (I think up to 3 tries are fine). I dont know if there is a majority who favours a special defitnion, but it could really help to have a strict line for this.
Not much happened until 10:45 (I just went with my "zook if wind"-strategy for 3 shots in the meantime), then I moved. Directly after I moved Maciej did a nice 3s shot. In the next few turns SPW and me are missing all our 5s lg shots but cfc is hitting my worm in 4 consecutive turns. Lalo's turn were a full powered 4s and a full powered "no wind"-zook, which is basically the same.
After getting hit that much I decided to move. There was obviously just one spot left on our side where I could go. The space between my worm and lalo's worm was aprrox. 20% of the map's width. So there we go again: Should this be considered as too close? How many percent of the map should be between the worms in the center of the map? Sticking to the current rules it should be 50% for 1vs1 (which I think is really a lot too much) and 33% for 2vs2 (which I also think is too much for many maps). A good thing to solve this is playing on maps that dont have hides in the map's center. So, I let's say I teleported too close. Infinite teleports would be useful in this case so we just agree that its to close and everyone skips his turn, so I could move away again.
But despite my close and also good hide Maciej does a vn zook that hits my face.
After a few more shots we came to a point (at ~ 18:40) where the mood changed. I was at a spot where I could just do zooks (like I already wrote above: Im going to do up to 3 zook shots with good wind before I move) and SPW was just being pushed to a spot where he could'nt throw nades either. Then cFc was accusing us to be darksiding and I just think that we didnt at this point, because SPW had no turn yet to move and I had decent wind twice in a row, so I didnt move yet either. Then SPW moved at his turn but nevertheless lalo tried a lame 3s rolling nade that even sitted, did 1 damage to me and whats more important: just ruined my hide with a lame shot that was even a cow. (After this point I just went a bit mad I think ^^).
I wanted lalo to skip for his cow which he did. But then I made a move that I now see is kinda silly. I torched even closer to lalo, so that the between us is just like 15% of the map's width.
This hide was not just close to him, it was also nearly impossible to hit me with a well timed nade. And in this hide I did a cheap 4s rolling nade to lalo in revenge for his rolling nade. (I think the rolling nade was kinda fair in this case, but my hide surely wasnt.)
Then lalo moved, I tried some 5s max bounce stuff and then wanted to move. But unfortunately I got some really nice wind twice in a row and stayed in my cheap hide. I knew my hide sucked ass but I still justified my actions with lalos rolling nade. This was wrong of me because I already had my revenge with my rolling nade and I clearly should have moved in this situation. (Again unlimited teleports would help here, because we just had 1 left).
After I finally moved things were about to get normal again. We all made shots that I wouldnt call any lame. But noone did any hit with this, hehe. Then (at around 32:00) Maciej fired a full powered 4s; probably because he was still angry at me fpr using this lame hide. After this SPW did a nice "no wind"-zook hit and lalo also started to throw 4s nades at me again (the second one rolled in dealing 42 damage). Finally Im being killed with another 4s nade by Maciej in the next turn.
After this there were quite a few more lame turns, especially at the end when lalo and SPW both could just throw bouncing nades.
All in all I think that one lame action encouraqge a new lame action that was even lamer and it went on like this up to a point where the game was just a pain in the ass for all players. To avoid games like this in the future we should
1. have unlimited teleports in the scheme
2. have a clear definition what darksiding means
3. maybe an adjusted minimum space between the teams (I think that 50%[1vs1] / 30%[2vs2] is just too much)
If noone thinks that the other one has an unfair advantage because of darksiding I think there will be a lot less lame shots at all.
And at the end: sorry for pissing you off. Didnt think that I was the main reason for this game to become a lame war, but after checking the replay again I think that my darksiding starting at 19:50 was the main reason.
PS: hi husk who will never read this XD
I don`t think Random played any lame in this game, I think you are exaggerating Maciej. What exactly did he do? He never darksided, he was always possible to attack you guys in every turn he was there. You guys did a sitter, and by the book you should skip. Normally Random would let this one go, I know him well enough to say that, but he had a reaction because of you guys calling him lame; its human/natural. About the length of the map, on him being close to you guys; I`m not very comfortable with this rule, I don`t remember how it has been practiced earlier, and how it has evolved, but it seems Wooka has said that it should be 1/3 of the length of the map. You must take in consideration that this map had few hides, and I find his hide OK. I remember from earlier games myself that no one would complain about a hide like this, but maybe it has changed and people are more strict about it.
You didn`t darkside Sebastian, how is that a darkside? Anyway, this is just a game that occurs once in a while when people have bad days at the same time, in my opinion, I`ve seen it before
Quote from: Crazy on December 11, 2010, 03:36 AM
You didn`t darkside Sebastian, how is that a darkside?
My defitinion of darksidings is way lighter than yours! ;o
I think darksiding is when you cant be hit with a nade that explodes on impact. Being hit here means like doing 10 damage or more.
If you said that darksiding is when you cant be hit by any shot, then you'd be right ;d
I'm actually gonna back Random up on this one, I had a long talk with him after the game cuz I just woke up and was acting like a lil kid who just dropped his ice cream.
While I think his hide is classed as darksiding, I only class it as that if you stay there forever, but when he was pushed, and tried a few shots with nice wind, I think this is acceptable, and the sensible thing to do, at the very least if you are pushed like this, you should definately be allowed at least 1 return shot to try and get some damage back which leads me to this:
My idea for Darksiding rule:
You are not allowed to hide in a position that stops the opponent from directly hitting you on impact with grenades, which also forces them to use overtimed grenades to roll in, If you are pushed you are allowed 3 attempts for a return shot or 1 hit then you must move.
^^ Randoms hide in this game at 5:30 is a perfect example of what I mean.
I think the minimum space between enemy worms should be around 30% for 1v1 and 30% for 2v2, people should just be careful to make maps that have good hides on both sides far enough away from the middle, this is a reason I started putting big hills in the middle of my maps which people refer to as volcanos lol.
I don't blame Random for asking lalo to skip, when it comes to BnG and when it's war like this game, rules are rules.
I totally agree with Random that the cow ruined his hide, this happened to me once in a clanner where the opponent done a cow, we asked them to skip turn, but instead they hit themself a little which made there hide better which gave them an advantage in a very crucial point in the game where we only had like 10hp each left, but of course, I am 100% sure lalo didn't intend this to happen and didn't want to do a sitter, this was just an unfortunate accident.
Edit: Nice map btw :)
Quote from: Random00 on December 11, 2010, 03:52 AM
Quote from: Crazy on December 11, 2010, 03:36 AM
You didn`t darkside Sebastian, how is that a darkside?
My defitinion of darksidings is way lighter than yours! ;o
I think darksiding is when you cant be hit with a nade that explodes on impact. Being hit here means like doing 10 damage or more.
If you said that darksiding is when you cant be hit by any shot, then you'd be right ;d
Hmm yeah I think you are on to something here, I just got home from town, let me read over this tomorrow and I might agree with your defenition
OMG, I love Hypertraxx, that's an awesome song man, xD
+1 for that for relevance haha
If you like Hypertraxx you should check out this song:
Ah that's a classic xD
Haha! :D
I keep getting +1 from u for my good taste in music! xD
But ye, was mostly the name of the song that made me post it!
On topic ; i havent watched the game, but i agree with Random00 :D haha!
I give +1 to anyone who tells a good joke or posts a great song or something xD
You know, things that actually deserve +1 or -1, not just cuz you do or don't like someone xD
And yeah, I agree with Random too, was a perfect analysis of the game :)
lol drop this "lame BnG style" thoughts. I am incapable of understanding the big deal here. This is clanner and war! Unload your BnG anger on me and move on.
BnG is most funner @ fun games with a2b\b2b members.
I hate competitive BnG's with cheap shots :( (for those reasons which complained at this post. {I didnt watched the game})
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on December 11, 2010, 06:32 AM
lol drop this "lame BnG style" thoughts. I am incapable of understanding the big deal here. This is clanner and war! Unload your BnG anger on me and move on.
This will never be dropped, it ruins the scheme. BnG is too good of a scheme to be crapped on like this, newcomers hate it because for them, it's long and boring and they can't shoot well enough, plus don't understand the rules. Other people, who used to like the scheme, don't like it now, because how those newcomers play it. :-X
And then u have those who never liked it! :D Not speaking about myself tho, i own bng! pow pow! xD
Yea nice song, Crazy. I heard it a lot in my car :D The bass in the back was just so great in that song xD Like little stings in your back, second for second. xD
And about the game. Nice analyse, Random. Lalo / Maciej overact while the game, and after it. It wasnt that bad, tho. Honestly, first hide from lalo was destroying a lot but we didnt complain about his "4-Sec-Nade-Fullpowering-only" - hide. Komo, Maciej or Diana would never pick such a hide for the start - Lalo did. And it wasnt the first time Lalo is doing something "shit" in a bng vs us. Last bng he was doing such things too. I vote Lalo should think about his bng style - not Random or anyone else in CF or cFc. :/
Solutions for distance. 3 times a long, horizontal girder could be a messure. I dont like "30%" etc of the map cause a lot of people have totally different screens and my 50% of screen is at Random's monitor about 30%. ;d
Solutions for darksiding. Take a2b rule, when you got pushed you get max. 3 shots from there. If no wind or chance to get it out, move. Inf. Teleports are helpful there as I agree to Random, too.
Quote from: darKzTUS BnG is war!
And probably it will be forever.
SPW, I totally 100% agree what you say about lalo here the way he played in that game, but how can you blame him?
What you seem to be forgetting is, without a doubt, CF will always pick BnG when I am not there - it's just the way it is, Random even told me, you pick schemes for points and best chances of winning, you and Random are much better than lalo and maciej at this scheme by a longshot, lalo doesn't know how to use all angles/shots like Maciej Random and SPW so I don't blame him for hiding against such good players, they think it's lame you pick this everytime I am not around for easiest chance for big points, you just honestly wanna take your biggest chance of winning a scheme with a satisfying amount of points to claim, almost everyone does it, because I pick BnG 99% when I play which makes us have much more points than almost every other clan, I reckon, if we didn't have so many points at stake, they would maybe not play so defensive and relax a bit, so it's my own fault for being so damn addicted to BnG that we have so many points to lose and put this much pressure on cFc.
I have witnessed clans avoiding mm when Mablak/Shyguy is there to TTRR and avirex/nino there they have a full, almost unbeatable team so people wet their pants and wait for the next clan...
I've seen people come to ag asking for clanners, then seen CF members come on, and they stop asking, then CF leave, and they start to ask again, it's pathetic considering you very very rarely get a chance to even play CF in TuS Clanners, heck it's almost a miracle to see 3 members of CF on wnet at the same time...
I got kicked from a clanner when that clans pick was BnG and they started without me, and they tried to deny it !
Bottom line is, too many people avoid/n00b bash/wait for the perfect moment to play certain schemes with certain clans.
This whole game was based on fun, no one makes money from it, people should be able to go into a clanner or singles game and be like "Hmm, I feel like this scheme today" no matter what the analyser says, no matter how many points they can win or lose, no matter how good or bad their opponent is, have a civilised conversation with their opponents, laugh their asses off with silly mistakes and learn from them, take advice from better players, give advice to players still learning and congratulate the winner and be on with their day.
So many times i've congratulated people for beating me at BnG, people who play respectfully and are good company, i've got angry at players for beating me before for no good reason when I was only angry at myself, and I regret that, but more and more recently i've been encouraging winners and players with potential, I am trying my damn best to better myself.
All in all, I need to get over this whole BnG thing in clanners, if you or anyone else wants to pick it, then pick it, I just want honest losses and honest wins and everyone to be happy, in all schemes.
You won while being whooped with easy grenades and lame hides and an overall bad atmosphere, and you didn't result to insulting lalo or Maciej, you managed to keep your temper like mature adults, I respect that and think you deserved the win.
I'll just have to teach lalo more in BnG :P
Quote from: Komo on December 11, 2010, 11:37 AMWhat you seem to be forgetting is, without a doubt, CF will always pick BnG when I am not there - it's just the way it is.
Dude, seriously? Still this? Next time I will record our discussions on Ventrilo just to prove you, we don't pick BnG against cFc when you are not there, we analyze and that's the best scheme to pick, so simple. I'm sad that you think we avoid clannering against you. ;<
Komo, you can believe me and we did talk about that before the pick. Yesterday we would pick BnG anyway, doesnt matter if you are online or not. It would be even better if you are around too and no such first hide spot by lalo would happen then. Thats for first and I already said this to you yesterday in snp. After you punished me which I didnt really understand. You must been drunken or smth so no need for me to talk on that poor level. ;)
And we could also be pissed off cause every clan is picking ttrr now versus us cause obv there is the best chance to win some easy points against us. The time when Unique and Yanme around almost no clan did pick ttrr then - so this is kind the same thing, also your example with Mablak / Shyguy.
We cant change it, people dont like to lose and always try to find the easiest way to get points and wins. We just have to accept it and keep the fun in it - thats the most important thing at playing worms for us but I agree that we (CF) has it own philosophy about playing league games. You cant change us so you cant change other humans. Just respect is the key :)
Yeah I know SPW, that's why I said this:
"you just honestly wanna take your biggest chance of winning a scheme with a satisfying amount of points to claim, almost everyone does it"
And it is true Ray, CF always pick BnG when I ain't there and you clan cFc because of the above statement ever since cFc got alot of points for BnG anyway, either way, if you didn't, and I was there, I would lol.
I didn't say you avoid me, no one would avoid me, I am the worst all-rounded on wnet lol.
"The time when Unique and Yanme around almost no clan did pick ttrr then - so this is kind the same thing, also your example with Mablak / Shyguy." - SPW
Same for ps in when me and camper are online.......
xDDD
Quote from: Uber on December 11, 2010, 12:29 PM
Same for ps in when me and camper are online.......
xDDD
lol. That is so true.
well, I don't see anything bad in picking bng when there is not Komo, or ttrr when there is not Mablak. I hope mostly ppl playing worms are inteligent and that's why. I never avoid clanners and play every scheme you want me to play.
what about this bng I still claim that Radnom hides were darksiding, expecialy first, when he could only zook, but I have said anything then because he was quite long from us, and lalo pushed him there, so I was silence. The second was too close, we had no hides, while you came close to us and had easy way to shot us from short distance. I know you hadn't much hides on your side but come on guys, it was your map...
And remark, that when you Random got those darkhides, I still haven't used lame shot against you, I tried 5 sec LG or 4 sec but with max power at least.
Just last shot I have done was kinda lame, which killed you, I was going to hit SPW first, but then lalo said me just to kill you, and I found it as a better idea, expecialy because you weren't fair in the game, and got me angry even in my fav scheme which is bng (but fav only in clanners :P)
Yes, I think there should be more specify definition about darkhide, but I still claim that your hides Random were lamer than lalo.
And you were too close... It's not elite, it's not hysteria, where I get fun in easy, lame shots there, but it's bng and let's enjoy another way!
I thought that you guys were skilled enough to make nice game, but it's another bng which turned into drama
In a couple of years people are gonna start complaining about their opponents using super sheep in Elite.. Come on guys.
No rules bng would solve everything.
It would solve cow-situations, ye.
But people will never stop mimimi.
/me is done reading the whole topic, so shhhh randy :D
Should be no rules and played on cups :)
Quote from: Johnny on December 11, 2010, 08:15 PM
Should be no rules and played on cups :)
already suggested this xD (https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/complaints/bng-ckc-34261/msg27035/#msg27035)
(http://www.wmdb.org/images/maps/medium/6377.jpg)
YES!!!!!!
Yeah but Maciej, you pushed Random to that 1st hide, when you do that to someone you gotta expect a few turns of zooks as return fire until they hit you at least once, he only took 3 shots, then moved, which is respectable...
^^ Just saying...
it was Lalo who pushed! :P
I meant cFc as a whole, but I shoulda said that I guess lol.