You know, I just lost to that Rafka guy at Intermediate (I know.. He's so pro it's not even funny) because I started the game with only 4.5 worms. A f@#!ing sheep killed 3 of my worms in turn 1 and severely injured a 4th one. That is, before I could even do a thing.
Of course I wasn't playing a perfect Intermediate after that because it was obvious there wasn't the slightest chance I could win after such a first turn. But yeah, that's clearly not the reason why I've lost.
This is for you Rafka:
Quote03:30.14 <darKz`-> i just lost an intermediate to him because he killed 3.5 of my worms in turn 1
03:30.19 <darKz`-> and he thinks he's pro now
03:30.35 <darKz`-> he said "Dario would win 4.5 vs 8 situation"
03:31.36 <Dario|WantMyNickBack> I've won 3 vs 8 situations
03:31.41 <Dario|WantMyNickBack> very very special situations
03:31.51 <Dario|WantMyNickBack> where the enemy just ended up killing himself, so no credit for me :P
03:32.03 <Dario|WantMyNickBack> and if the map was bad, sorry dude, nothing you could have done that round.
03:32.08 <darKz`-> yeah i know.. but in intermediate, with all the ropes and the jetpack, wormselects, it's pretty much impossible
03:32.16 <Dario|WantMyNickBack> yep
My point is, I'd like to have Intermediate be a Free League scheme because there's just too much luck involved, it ruins your streak / rating / rank very randomly.
While I agree that the scheme requires a different type of skill than i.e. Elite does, I don't think it's possible to play best-of-one Intermediates in a league.
I'd like to hear opinions about this. And if Rafka shows up here please don't hesitate to click that [smite] button, he f@#!ing deserves it for the chat in those 2 games.
This is the said game if you'd like to have a look:
https://www.tus-wa.com/videos/replays/%5BPoD%5DRafka(1228703467).2008-12-08%2001.50.55%20%5BOnline%5D%20darKz%60b2b,%20@xRafka.WAgame
I don't like bo1 games, no matter which scheme, that is one of the reasons why I almost don't play in bo1 leagues or tournaments. I am also not sure if the kind-of-bad-luck-that-gives-you-absolutely-no-chance-to-win happens more often at Intermediate (with a decent map choice) than at T17 (with a decent map choice), wxw or shoppers (but what do I know, I don't play T17, wxw or shoppers). Also I can't really compare Inter vs Elite to say which one is better, because I think I've played a good number of both of them and I still can't do such "ranking", they are simply different.
So, to be honest, extreme bad luck happens at Inter (so that if the map was bad, the placement was unfair and your opponent was good enough you will simply lose) I know it, but:
-I am not sure it happens more than at other schemes.
-This particular replay was not one of the cases of extreme bad luck and there was something Darkz could have done to even up the situation: http://nnnclan.freeforums.org/download.php?id=292
But I totally understand that someone who is not used to the sight of 3/8 worms plopped in the first turn gets frozen by anger and fails to see the counter attack. So it is quite true that people used only to elite and t17 gaming will not stand a chance against an experienced Intermediater in situations similar to this game (multiple kills in the first turn = "roll the worm" maps) in the same way an Intermediater used to "roll the worm" maps won't stand a chance against an experienced eliter in an elite game.
So, please, keep Intermediate as classic and make games best of 3 :-*, in that way I assure you that a good player will almost never lose to a not-so-good player, I've seen it happen.
Last thing: where is the "streak" counter? I've failed to see it in the ranking.
I think intermediate must be in classic league. As everything already said, I guess it must be bo3.
For league games play intermediate bo3 from now on, But report with 1 replay till I make it 3 replays upload.
EDIT : darKz I watched the replay. I have to say it weren't like you didn't have a chance at all. I guess the main reason that you lost, was you didn't concentrate on the game enough because you were looking at Intermediate as a cheap scheme in the game time. (According to your chat)
I agree, intermedialna is also v lucky scheme (for bo1), and in fight bo1, man who starts turn has 60-70 % win + if he has good positions and plop u 2-3 worms at start u can say just "gg" what happens in 50 % of my inter's games..
Bo3 for inter
I don't see what's the problem, i don't play intermediate, that's my solution, i always say that b4 opponent's pick, if he isn't agree then we don't play.
I'm agree in that's a 90% lucky game, that's why i don't play it, but too many NNN's to say nothing bad about intermediate lol..
Yes, many good intermediate players and NNN will tell u that inter is not lucky, but for me it is more lucky than shoppa or t17, but it is just my opinion.. So Bo3 can make it more fair, but I dont think so if many ppl will have time to play 3 games about 1 win..
You missed the point Monkey, I already said I played shite. But I had Dario confirm that the situation was pretty much hopeless. Not impossible but very hopeless.
Why do you think Intermediate belongs to Classic anyway? It hasn't been a league core scheme for the last 9 years.
Losing 3 worms and 20 HP at the beginning of the game sure is "hopeless". I'm not saying If I were in your place I would win the game or so. I'm saying losing that much at the very beginning messed your concentration up for the rest of the game, as I saw there were some chances you could do more damage to Rafka.
I didn't choose Intermediate to be in classic :
https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/index.php?topic=16.0 (It started first here, other than talking on messengers ...)
Quote from: darKz on December 08, 2008, 12:44 PM
Why do you think Intermediate belongs to Classic anyway? It hasn't been a league core scheme for the last 9 years.
True, But is that enough reason to not include some new schemes? + thinking like that will block any new scheme that could have some potential imo.
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on December 08, 2008, 01:05 PM
True, But is that enough reason to not include some new schemes? + thinking like that will block any new scheme that could have some potential imo.
Not at all.
There's a) still NNN's Intermediate-league and b) still a fun-part in here, the Free League.
I would agree on having Battle Race or Fort in the Classic League (because it's been like that before) but certainly not Intermediate. This is gonna cause a lot of ruckus you know, I guess I'm not the only one with this opinion.
Where's the 'skill' in killing 3 worms in the very first round and before your opponent can do a single damn thing? You can't kill say 40% of your opponent's worms in round 1 in any other scheme (except in Team17 maybe, but there you still got a great chance of at least drawing).
I see your point.
I think making normal bo3 could be some sort of solution here and it would decrease this "luck" in Intermediate that has gone on your nerves.
Quote from: darKz on December 08, 2008, 01:15 PM
There's a) still NNN's Intermediate-league
Quote from: Dario on December 08, 2008, 05:29 AM
So, please, keep Intermediate as classic and make games best of 3 :-*
Other than Dario's quote, I had heard that NNN had shut their league down for some reason, don't know how much it is true though ...
Anyway, aside of everyting been said, Feel free to start a poll in leagues ideas board, about Intermediate. If you get enough poll, It will be moved to the free league.
Let's do this, I start playing Inter here to best of whatever-you-want and if I am lucky I will manage to get a nice winning % that (if winning or losing is actually random) shouldn't go higher than 60-70%.
Yes, there is no current intermediate league because we lost our hosting ^^.
As Bytor said. Playing elite is like flipping a coin, However starts winn.
Therefore the luckfactor in elite is 40 to 50 percent.
In intermidiate. you have 8 worms 3 ws and 2 teleports. Allso you have 8 worms so it isnt common on good maps(without to many easy plops)that you can ever get more than 2 kills per turn.)
Furthermore in elite that isnt elite yust some player who renamed it to make it sound more hardcore. It is far to easy to darkside because of
Limited attack power
Limited attack time
No hotseat time.
Therefore less skilled player can easily wait and use the supersheep later on at sd. Allso sd is much earlier then in normal
I think intermidiate should ofc be played with a propper luckllesss scheme (no duds no crates basicly) Besides. Intermidiate is much harder than elite. Many people that are good in normal become great in elite ... but people good at elite can loose 4 0 in normal. In normal .There is rarely any hiding. You must etheir decimate or die but still have to think alot(especially in cavern game)
Besides. There is really no luck in normal. Except for starting possitions. But other populair classic leauges schemes are infested with luck. Like t17 for exampel. Crates every turn.
If we were to divide all the schemes into luck and non luck normal would make it into non luck(even though elite would to) and besides free schemes like wfw would allso get in. great i love wfw)
So in the end it is alot harder to contrll youre worms in normal than in elite. So instead of being forced to play normal as superior scheme play whatever you want.
Suggestion. I think we should remove shoppa from tus
Doubletime please, please cut your nonsense posts. Elite hasn't been named Elite by some random guy, there was an EliteLeague scheme included in every installation of Worms just like Intermediate. Both have been tweaked a little to suit leagues better.
It's obvious that neither you nor that other guy you're talking about have played Elite to the extent that I've played it (and many others). Placing first doesn't mean a damn thing, you're clearly underestimating the strategic factors of the scheme. If you've got a proper strategy (piling for example, to mention an easy one) you're very soon in an even situation, the game practically begins from there, not from placing first.
40-50% luck in Elite? Don't make me laugh.
Although I guess this also counts for Intermediate, I still don't think there's an equal chance of winning both schemes even if you've mastered whichever scheme you're playing.
yes indeed, its just contraproductive to compare elite and intermediate and try to figure out which scheme contains more lucky moments. as already said i dont think you can win or loose any of those schemes by luck/bad luck.
dont wanna decide whether to keep intermediate or not also...i would say its a matter of how many ppl want to keep it or not, as we figured out now thats its not luck to win it :)
Okay to sum it up, after my talk with Dario I'm pretty much convinced that Intermediate can be played competitively and it's not as lucky as I first thought, however this only applies if you play it at least bo3.
If Intermediate is gonna be played bo3 in Classic I'll do as f4st recommended and tell people beforehand that I won't play Intermediate because to me it's nonsense to play 4 games for 2 wins if I can play 2 for 2.
100% agree with dark
it has to be played on bo3 otherwise its too lucky. Its a very good competitive scheme darkz, dario, jigsaw, and few others are great at this scheme. Maybe tus needs to come up with a system to award more 2 wins for bo3 matchs, or each round of intermediate counts as a win/lose but you HAVE to do bo3 and not 1 round.
So smart to follow my philosophy :)
I agree with chicken23 on something:
If what troubles most of them is that they can lose when it is bo1 but they don't want to play a whole bo3 for the same points of a bo1, then you could adjust the points of bo3 matches.
Quote from: Dario on December 08, 2008, 05:29 AM
I don't like bo1 games, no matter which scheme, that is one of the reasons why I almost don't play in bo1 leagues or tournaments. I am also not sure if the kind-of-bad-luck-that-gives-you-absolutely-no-chance-to-win happens more often at Intermediate (with a decent map choice) than at T17 (with a decent map choice), wxw or shoppers (but what do I know, I don't play T17, wxw or shoppers). Also I can't really compare Inter vs Elite to say which one is better, because I think I've played a good number of both of them and I still can't do such "ranking", they are simply different.
gj Dario
as Í see, it's still a discuss, I'm also a intermediate player so just wanna give my opinion:
The most is already said by Dario, the map should be complex etc. Intermediate is one of the most played schemes... I think, that's why we should keep it in Classic league. I dislike all the opinions "Intermediate isn't skilled" and "Intermediate is totally luck". Of course it is a skilled scheme. Why we have players like Dario who won all his Intermediate matches till now :o
But ok, a solution here is found with bo3. It's not a perfect solution but it's better than before!
I don't wanna open a total new discussion but Rafka said nothing here and he is the 2nd place in ranking and it's also about him. I told him about this discussion, I hope he will answer.
thx Pink for info, I dont look at forum so much :P
Anyway I agree, bo3 will be fine...
P.S. Dark, dont cry man, we can play more games then 1. Im just wondering would You in my place do the same move as I...:P but no metter U will have a lot of chances to beat me :P
Nice triple kills Dario ;)
my thoughts, bo1 inter: play with deployment.
bo3 inter, play as usual.
I suppose you all ae considering that base points for Intermediate is 50 and -26 points if you play bo3 and 40 and -21 if you play bo1.
yea, and it's good like that. Solution is found in my opinion. Keep it like that in the new system ;)
It makes no sense to do that though, people play bo1 because their opponant can't be assed to play bo3, why should one players lazyness result in lesser victory points?
right NAiL! This would be a continue of a good solution xD
I had this often, that's why there should be a rule: You have to play bo3 or bo1 if your opponent wants it.
So the "picker" choose and the opponent have to accept.
I guess you have you are not considering one element here. and That's the time of these games. If your opponent don't wanna play bo3, It saves you 2 games time (That you would be playing bo3). You can play another league game in that time.
Yes but as has already been established, playing inter bo1 is not fair, plain and simple.
Playing bo1 with placement at the start of the match seems to solve this issue, but I know the hardcore inter players won't like this idea very much, as problem solving it may be.
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on January 13, 2009, 04:22 PM
I guess you have you are not considering one element here. and That's the time of these games. If your opponent don't wanna play bo3, It saves you 2 games time (That you would be playing bo3). You can play another league game in that time.
what has that got to do with anything...?
Terry doesnt want to play another 2 games...
Terry wants to play a fair game of intermediate against his current opponant...
What is this crap im reading on tus today... -.-
Intermediate must be in the classic league, tha'ts why it's classic.
Nothing to do with luck, just look at hysteria, not a very luck-involved Scheme
but it's in the FREE league, that because it isnt a classic Scheme (That was obvious I know)
So you must look, Intermediate was the first scheme, ok, It's unfair sometimes
but this happens with all schemes (Just way more with Intermediate, lol)
30 sec, 3 ropes, 1 worm select, and placements before you start would make that scheme 1232432 better.
Quote from: Hurenmeister on February 26, 2009, 10:50 AM
30 sec, 3 ropes, 1 worm select, and placements before you start would make that scheme 1232432 better.
I sure will ^^
But it isn't Intermediate anymore.
EDIT : I think Intermediate has proved itself.
I've seen a few times people insult TUS badly just because TUS has accept Normal as a classic league scheme.
Have you heard this saying : (Don't know its exact words, trasnlated version ;) )
"All the facts for being accepted passes 3 levels :
1. People make fun of them at first.
2. Then people will fight hard with them.
3. They will be accepted like an absolute fact. (like it was true in the first place)
"
Forgetting all being said, I think f4st is a great example. Look at his stats :
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/members-stats/f4st/
He have played in all seasons till now. He was/is in every playoffs. Yet he hasn't played 1 single Intermediate game. As far as I know he clears out that he won't play TUS if his opponent is interested on picking Normal.
I mean no matter how someone hate Intermediate, He/She can always prevent a scheme.
That's Interesting TUS being insulted only becuase it has Inter :)
I see all uses da pr0 for his examples :)
I don't play inter ye, but in that time I didn't play with lot of TuS players because they only pick inerdmediate, inter had to be at free league part, then league would be more "professional", u only need to see who plays inter, normally, not da best players, if u prefer a mega-active nubs league instead of an only-active good league, then all its ok :)
Agreed.
I can't see an Inter I lost 100% due luck, tbh. All times I lost, it was my own fault. Not to talk about a full Bo3, never lost 2 out of 3 games due luck, hell, can't even remember 1 single lucky game.
Quote from: twistah on March 09, 2009, 05:46 AM
I can't see an Inter I lost 100% due luck, tbh. All times I lost, it was my own fault. Not to talk about a full Bo3, never lost 2 out of 3 games due luck, hell, can't even remember 1 single lucky game.
same there. i can count my errors in inter. If u play with inter geniuses like Dario u cannot afford errors. I mean not only "omfg why he didnt plop" error but "brain" errors like "i was so dumb to let opponent pile my 3 worms" error.
That happens in any scheme. Intermediate is the most basic scheme
and it is classic so let it stay.
: )
Look at Darios winning streaks on this league and NNN. This very nearly reduces all chance of luck being the deciding factor between a win or a loss to zero. Bo3 of course.
If you want to slate intermediate as a scheme, do so for credible reasons!
Quote from: Pixy on March 09, 2009, 07:39 PM
That happens in any scheme. Intermediate is the most basic scheme
and it is classic so let it stay.
: )
??? inter is the most complicated scheme...
Ye, but he prolly means "basic" as in it's 1 of the oldest schemes around. It's been in the W:A directory for ages, if not already since W:A exists.
Quote from: twistah on March 09, 2009, 11:22 PM
Ye, but he prolly means "basic" as in it's 1 of the oldest schemes around. It's been in the W:A directory for ages, if not already since W:A exists.
Exactly.
Quote from: NAiL on March 09, 2009, 11:17 PM
??? inter is the most complicated scheme...
True.
Not even THAT complicated, tbh, only in the very beginning of your Inter career.
lol i saw X-ray getting annoyed in some thread of XTC forum where TheDoGG said something like: if u dont like this league go play TuS the noobs league.
Thats the image of TuS for lot of good players, u can be agree or disagree, but thats the real image, why?
Intermediate atract noobs to the league, u can be agree or disagree, but thats the truth :)
U only need to see who plays XTC and who plays TuS, i like both but good players prefer XTC mostly because no intermediate allowed :)
Like i said, if u are happy with a super-active noob league instead of a only-active good league, all ok.
Quote from: f4st on March 10, 2009, 08:22 AM
Intermediate atract noobs to the league
As much as I believe in Intermediate as a very serious scheme, I gotta say yea that's a big fact. All people who try to play online for the first time(Which are pure newbies), they already know a bit Intermediate but offline style. Since Intermediate is worms default scheme when you run the game AND so many players never touch the schemes select box during their offline experience.
Quote from: twistah on March 10, 2009, 08:04 AM
Not even THAT complicated, tbh, only in the very beginning of your Inter career.
It is exactly THAT complicated. Playing Intermediate in advanced level, requires having skills for lots of weapons, Having experience in lot of situations, You do the math.
one of the problems is (which makes people think Inter is a lucky scheme), If 2 players do not know how to play Inter, They still can play and have fun with it. I once watched two 7 - 8 years old kids playing Intermediate (lets say they were playing worms), and each turn they did TONS of mistakes, They were both laughing like hell and they succeed finishing the game.
Meanwhile, Not all people can finish TTRR neither they can have any fun of it. Same goes for BnG. Because they need absolute skills. Most of people on WN, admire skills, but not so much "thinking" and "strategy". I've heard about so many people are masters in rope for example. But if 100 times I've heard that, Maybe 5 time I've heard someone is good at strategy maybe?
Well, then it's just me getting pretty fast hang out of Inter, prolly 'cos I'm playing Elites and T17's for years already.