I just wanted to start a discussion about what sort of input devices, keyboards, gamepads, etc. are acceptable for worms, in terms of hardware as well as software. There's clearly been an evolution in what we deem permissible over the years. A decade ago, people would have scoffed at any form of external program, even the key remapping programs that a chunk of WN now uses. But there was a failure to codify that community consensus in any concrete way, so it's hardly surprising that the definition of cheating didn't remain static. If we want to cement our views on what is/isn't acceptable in WA, it helps to have an explicit set of rules that we can point to for future wormers.
I think we need to establish common ground in regards to the goal of this endeavor; the purpose of defining cheating is simply to make the community a better place. If rules are too lax, current players might leave, and a lot of future players might be deterred from coming to WA. I know that the prevalence of cheating has deterred me from several online games over the years. If the rules are too strict, and we decided that only one kind of keyboard was acceptable or something like that, well, no one would even pay attention to such a rule, and it might create unnecessary blame.
I think there are a number of facets of input devices that we have no reason to care about restricting.
-Sensitivity of buttons, for example, is something that varies from kb to kb; WA started out in a position of not caring about this. And if we were to establish restrictions on response time of keys, there still wouldn't be any easy way for a player to determine how sensitive his/her kb actually is.
-Placement of keys also seems like a trivial matter. If someone wanted to restrict where keys can and can't be placed, it would require quite a few arbitrary rules, like specifying the minimum distance between the spacebar and the f-keys. This would be an unnecessary complication, and we wouldn't be able to find common ground to begin with.
-Plurality of keys, though contested by some, should also be considered irrelevant as long as sensitivity is considered irrelevant. Finger rolling on a perfectly sensitive spacebar yields almost exactly the same results as finger rolling with two spaces, because you can't have the second space register while you're holding down the first. Moreover, allowing this seems to attract people to the game while hardly deterring anyone from leaving, it's hard to argue that it's not beneficial for the community. It's quite possible that some people are more capable of learning to rope this way, and would never have been able to get into roping with just one finger, since a number of people have made this claim.
And next, the things we should, and pretty thoroughly do, care about restricting:
-External programs that don't simply remap keys. I don't think anyone can point to a single external program that we really deem acceptable outside of key remapping. I'm guessing we're mostly in agreement on this. And if CS/DC decided to make remapping part of the game, we could just cleanly say that all external programs are forbidden.
-Single motions/presses that result in multiple inputs sent to WA. Anything external or internal that is a macro, or is macro-like in its consequences, clearly reduces skill in this game.
I'll just propose three rules to cover everything we generally consider unacceptable.
1. No playing with hardware that isn't button-based in nature. There needs to be some form of human pressing for every input you send to the game, except when it comes to cursor movement.
2. Any button you press must result in no more than one input into the game.
3. No using any programs that affect WA, except for key remappers.
Rule 1 could be seen as unnecessary, it's really just there in case someone invents a weird way of tapping that requires too little effort, like using a mouse wheel. Does anyone have any objections to these rules, or any features that should be added?
Well, the problem with all this - I didn't read your post, only the list and the first paragraph - is that you can never catch people using a not acceptable keyboard.
And, just for the record, how about disabled people? I'm not making fun here, I really do know someone playing worms who suffered cerebral haemorrhage at birth and his left side is disabled, I actually met him. Naturally, he cannot perform at the level any of us could under normal circumstances, that means he is unable to play this league?
How would you make up for that? By letting him not play schemes he is unable to play? How would you make people understand that and not simply quit on the guy? He wouldn't be able to play 80 games in a season as easily as we can.
Or would you make up for that by letting him use a program or a special keyboard? How do you measure what level of aid he deserves? Some people would start arguing that the aid he gets is too much and that now he has an advantage.
On top of that, how would you make sure that he really is handicapped and not making it up?
This was a real life example. What I'm trying to point out is that lately, I think the community is focusing on rules too detailed. I think most of the commonly accepted rules were absolutely self-explanatory and understandable and I don't understand where this over-detailing fashion is coming from.
I understand that some people - mostly newcomers - are trying to take advantage of the still very poorly written, overly-hidden rulebook, but is this the solution? I don't know. :-X
just use a condom mate... I wish I remembered that before I got herpes in my dick
let's speak clear. today the most used things by "cheaters" are: macros, autohotkey and uwt (or some other programs for roping that double your taps).
i think it would be not so hard to have the possibility to analyze replays and see if someone is using this stuff. i mean, its so obvious: if you use this shit your imputs will have some kind of regolarity and if we could analyze replays transforming them in some understandable strings, we could match those regularities. i know that this kind of thing is already possible to do, but only darkshadow(?) can do it, am i right? i'm not a pc nerd so i don't know how much this thing can be possible, of course we can't publish the way to decrypt replays or people would start to use it for cheating purposes. but i think this is the way we should go.
implementing some kind of anti-cheat would be great too. i know of lot of other games managed by passionate players that make their own anti-cheats for leagues.
any game of any type will ALWAYS have people that cheat. the only way to limit this behaviour would be to be able to PROVE they cheat. no other way i guess. establish rules is pointless and useless i think.
i mean i know of people using macros for bng too. it's not hard to catch them, you just have to watch at replays very carfully: identic shots, aim going straight to the perfect degree multiple times (lol), stuff like that. a way to PROVE this would be great.
Quote from: Ray on August 13, 2012, 04:50 AM
Well, the problem with all this - I didn't read your post, only the list and the first paragraph - is that you can never catch people using a not acceptable keyboard.
And, just for the record, how about disabled people? I'm not making fun here, I really do know someone playing worms who suffered cerebral haemorrhage at birth and his left side is disabled, I actually met him. Naturally, he cannot perform at the level any of us could under normal circumstances, that means he is unable to play this league?
How would you make up for that? By letting him not play schemes he is unable to play? How would you make people understand that and not simply quit on the guy? He wouldn't be able to play 80 games in a season as easily as we can.
Or would you make up for that by letting him use a program or a special keyboard? How do you measure what level of aid he deserves? Some people would start arguing that the aid he gets is too much and that now he has an advantage.
On top of that, how would you make sure that he really is handicapped and not making it up?
This was a real life example. What I'm trying to point out is that lately, I think the community is focusing on rules too detailed. I think most of the commonly accepted rules were absolutely self-explanatory and understandable and I don't understand where this over-detailing fashion is coming from.
I understand that some people - mostly newcomers - are trying to take advantage of the still very poorly written, overly-hidden rulebook, but is this the solution? I don't know. :-X
Of course someone with a handicap would deserve to be able to play with something that can get them closer to equal footing with the rest of us. If they needed some kind of unconventional input device that isn't button-based, no big deal. Using macros would probably be going a bit far though, and I can't imagine someone being able to play, but being unable to get by without macros.
And newcomers probably aren't trying to take advantage of anything, they simply don't know what can and can't be used. I don't think this is a major problem in the short term, but if we ever managed to get a big influx of newcomers again, it would only help to have guidelines they can look at. None of this stuff is self-explanatory.
Also, if we ever wanted to have some kind of live tourney, either in person or with webcams showing each player, it would help to have these guidelines known beforehand. Someone could construct a hardware version of a double tap macro, so surely it's at least worth mentioning this stuff. And the current rules do cover programs, but they only say, "Cheating by any program is highly forbidden", so it's not even clear if key remappers are allowed. Might as well specify this stuff better.
Quote from: OrangE on August 13, 2012, 06:39 AM
let's speak clear. today the most used things by "cheaters" are: macros, autohotkey and uwt (or some other programs for roping that double your taps).
i think it would be not so hard to have the possibility to analyze replays and see if someone is using this stuff. i mean, its so obvious: if you use this shit your imputs will have some kind of regolarity and if we could analyze replays transforming them in some understandable strings, we could match those regularities. i know that this kind of thing is already possible to do, but only darkshadow(?) can do it, am i right? i'm not a pc nerd so i don't know how much this thing can be possible, of course we can't publish the way to decrypt replays or people would start to use it for cheating purposes. but i think this is the way we should go.
implementing some kind of anti-cheat would be great too. i know of lot of other games managed by passionate players that make their own anti-cheats for leagues.
any game of any type will ALWAYS have people that cheat. the only way to limit this behaviour would be to be able to PROVE they cheat. no other way i guess. establish rules is pointless and useless i think.
i mean i know of people using macros for bng too. it's not hard to catch them, you just have to watch at replays very carfully: identic shots, aim going straight to the perfect degree multiple times (lol), stuff like that. a way to PROVE this would be great.
Maybe we can get CS to comment in this thread, I dunno. But there are keyboards with macro functionality built in, so we have to go past just talking about programs and talk about hardware too. And establishing these rules isn't pointless at all, it would only seem pointless if you thought they were already established. They kind of are, but not as well as they could be.
2. Any button you press must result in no more than one input into the game.
when you talk about the roping anybody with this thing is cheater, but there is 99% players who using hotkeys for hysteria and its something like they where never cheating. I personally dont use hotkeys for hyst (you can see it on bunch of fails when I playing after aerial and dont feel 1 sec turn xD ) but its not likely Im super cheat-hater lol, I just dont wanna waste time for such shit as fast pressing for such shit as hysteria! XDd
Quote from: Impossible on August 13, 2012, 08:53 AM
but there is 99% players who using hotkeys for hysteria
Yes, of course.
Anyway, no roping marco or software up to the date has enhanced roping to the point one can be better than he already is. All they offer is little quality of life improvements. Who needs more than 1 input for Space? What does that help him do? If he is throwing inputs on top of inputs, what does it matter? virtually and by definition (an input on top of another) cannot be controled and the only thing he is achieving with a macro is random tap burts that he might think look good, but looks is all they offer.
It saddens me to see so many people complaining about the use of cheats in schemes when they're equally beatable and these so called cheats are not getting them anywhere. Or am I missing something and mm, CF, CKC and cfc are full of cheaters?
Quote from: Impossible on August 13, 2012, 08:53 AM
2. Any button you press must result in no more than one input into the game.
when you talk about the roping anybody with this thing is cheater, but there is 99% players who using hotkeys for hysteria and its something like they where never cheating. I personally dont use hotkeys for hyst (you can see it on bunch of fails when I playing after aerial and dont feel 1 sec turn xD ) but its not likely Im super cheat-hater lol, I just dont wanna waste time for such shit as fast pressing for such shit as hysteria! XDd
I highly doubt anywhere near that many people use macros in hysteria, but yeah, another reason for me to not take that scheme seriously. Already forbidden by the rules though, hopefully no one actually thinks they're justified in doing that >_>.
Quote from: Mablak on August 13, 2012, 06:56 AM
Maybe we can get CS to comment in this thread, I dunno.
that would be great.
QuoteBut there are keyboards with macro functionality built in, so we have to go past just talking about programs and talk about hardware too. And establishing these rules isn't pointless at all, it would only seem pointless if you thought they were already established. They kind of are, but not as well as they could be.
well, macros are software based. my logitech g110 has macros and they are managed by the Logitech Gaming Software. Without that software they doesn't work, of course. Btw i keep saying that establishing rules isn't enough. Having a good anti-cheat system that could prove someone is using a software to take advantage in game would be perfect.
Quote from: OrangE on August 14, 2012, 01:24 PM
Quote from: Mablak on August 13, 2012, 06:56 AM
Maybe we can get CS to comment in this thread, I dunno.
that would be great.
QuoteBut there are keyboards with macro functionality built in, so we have to go past just talking about programs and talk about hardware too. And establishing these rules isn't pointless at all, it would only seem pointless if you thought they were already established. They kind of are, but not as well as they could be.
well, macros are software based. my logitech g110 has macros and they are managed by the Logitech Gaming Software. Without that software they doesn't work, of course. Btw i keep saying that establishing rules isn't enough. Having a good anti-cheat system that could prove someone is using a software to take advantage in game would be perfect.
I have a keyboard with a built in turbo button that works and I never installed any software (and drivers installed on plug in, anyway)
Quote from: Impossible on August 13, 2012, 08:53 AM
when you talk about the roping anybody with this thing is cheater, but there is 99% players who using hotkeys for hysteria and its something like they where never cheating. I personally dont use hotkeys for hyst (you can see it on bunch of fails when I playing after aerial and dont feel 1 sec turn xD ) but its not likely Im super cheat-hater lol, I just dont wanna waste time for such shit as fast pressing for such shit as hysteria! XDd
oh , so thats how hysteria players can do jetpack+LG+Punch all of that while they're flying , i spossed that there was something else behind those players , cos that mix is f@#!ing impossible to do lol
Quote from: Guaton on August 14, 2012, 02:20 PM
Quote from: Impossible on August 13, 2012, 08:53 AM
when you talk about the roping anybody with this thing is cheater, but there is 99% players who using hotkeys for hysteria and its something like they where never cheating. I personally dont use hotkeys for hyst (you can see it on bunch of fails when I playing after aerial and dont feel 1 sec turn xD ) but its not likely Im super cheat-hater lol, I just dont wanna waste time for such shit as fast pressing for such shit as hysteria! XDd
oh , so thats how hysteria players can do jetpack+LG+Punch all of that while they're flying , i spossed that there was something else behind those players , cos that mix is f@#!ing impossible to do lol
I can record myself doing it.
Its not that hard like it seems :s
And I dont cheat. :P
yeah...the hysteria mixes require alot of practice
example: I practiced alot with some extra weapons in hysteria and I learned to do jp + homing missile.
jp + lg + fp and jp + lg + nade is easy compared to jp + homing missile xD
yea the hyst combos are possible, i used to be able to do most of em
all about just practice so that you press the keys without thinking about it
undetectable... therefore a pointless discussion, sorry to hear about the herpes on your dick husk
thanks brah
How dare you suggest that AIDS isn't detectable Wooka, for shame!
And okay, even if you see it that way, we can say it's a discussion for future situations where people might play live. Let's talk about the kind of inputs we're allowed to use for live settings.
I really don't think that is necessary, as a live setting is never going to happen, there is just too few of us playing for that to happen I think.
Would be nice to see how those who run TUS see these rules you were trying to establish.
Live play has already happened, and it will happen again. Mark my words...
Quote from: Mablak on August 16, 2012, 09:11 AM
Live play has already happened, and it will happen again. Mark my words...
Yes, and it's for the luls, no one cares about tweaked up keyboards or league competition in those meetings man
Yeah, ropa is right there. W:A just doesn't yield any money so noone would go and punch/boot someone that would show them their funny over modded keyboard or whatever. I would just lulz and have a good time with that guy. :D
At least DarK, ramirez, Turan etc. didn't hate me or anything for my membrane keyboard that I brought with me. They even tried to play on it, failed of course cuz not used to it. :p
You can't necessarily detect a macro but I imagine it would possible because surely there would be a consistent time between each button press in the sequence? Unless it's a recording of manually inputted sequence I suppose. I don't know enough about the technical side.
I agree with Mablak's post. I remap space to my v key because it avoids the key lock that happens when I use the space bar, plus it's quieter and more practical to use. I remap F8 to my num 0 key because being a serious rope racer I really think it's impractical to have F8 all the way up there. And because different keyboards have different distances from key to key I consider it completely legitimate.
It's a natural evolution that allows rope racing performance to be maximised. One shouldn't be held back by a button being too far from another button. On a joypad for example, the buttons are all in the most suitable position and ergonomically positioned for convenience. We play a pc game on a keyboard so why shouldn't our buttons be in logical positions?
So I'm with you on the whole remapping.
Although at first I was against multiple buttons I now change my position and accept them.
Roping really isn't about tapping quickly and because only one can be held down at once I'm fine with it.
Macros should be banned I think.
If people wanna hold hysteria tournaments with macros allowed then perhaps that could be possible. Or maybe if both players agree that macros are allowable. But I really think it might be best to ban them altogether.
Doing those incredible sequences should really be based on skill and practice for all players. Short cuts are pretty lame and macros are a way of saying "I'm not good enough to do these button sequences but I'm gonna do them anyway".
AHK for roping. I disagree a little bit with Ropa on this point. I think they could help make the timing a bit easier for shadows and allow them to do certain maneovers more easily. Timing a successful shadow when you're roping really quickly down a corridor is damn hard, on occasions maybe only a 2 frame window is available to get the move right. I've never tried to use AHK but I understand it can cut the space bar off immediately after it's pressed so with multiple spaces you could practice extreme shadows and increase performance.
Obviously no one can use a "space bar enhancer" and be dramatically better. Arrow key skill will always be the most crucial. But still, it can still help people improve themselves a little bit and that makes them unfairly better.
But, I disagree strongly with Wooka. Just because a rule might not be detectable, it should definitely still be implemented. If it makes sense, so what if it can't be detected?
Some people just don't like being a cheater and perhaps optimistically I believe that most people like to play by the rules. If a rule is there people will follow it because it is the right thing to do.
Also, those who break a rule knowing they can't be detected?! Bit shitty isn't it? They may feel absolutely no guilt but for many it will devalue their win from a personal perspective.
nice post cue, everything you said was spot on.
u mention macros for hysteria, why do u suspect that some people are using these? I havn't seen any1 do anything suspecting in hysteria. if u see someone do jp lg nade max bounce, do u immediately think he is using macros, or maybe it could be that he practiced it many times?
Quote from: Cueshark on August 17, 2012, 12:52 AM
I remap F8 to my num 0 key
I thought I was the only one that did this :<
Quote from: Husk on August 17, 2012, 07:17 AM
if u see someone do jp lg nade max bounce, do u immediately think he is using macros?
I would think you'd do it like this:
JP+LG you do it almost instantly if you memorize the combo and your left hand index can be sitting on f2 from the begining (you use left thumb for the activation of utilities). You press that inmediatly after and then + with your right hand. Now the hard part comes (I assume) in the next step, having to move your right hand quickly to the keys to actually give the shot acceleration and pressing enter with that same right hand (or moving your left).
It's not really hard to memorize this sequence, however, being effective with it seems like a whole different thing unless you use a macro and you can focus on doing the toss right so the max bounce has a meaning to begin with.
Quote from: Husk on August 17, 2012, 07:17 AM
u mention macros for hysteria, why do u suspect that some people are using these? I havn't seen any1 do anything suspecting in hysteria. if u see someone do jp lg nade max bounce, do u immediately think he is using macros, or maybe it could be that he practiced it many times?
Macro?? o0
Never seen before in hysteria
Jetpack + Low gravit + Fire punch become easy when you practice a few, nothing to do with macro.
Quote from: ropa on August 17, 2012, 08:32 AM
Quote from: Cueshark on August 17, 2012, 12:52 AM
I remap F8 to my num 0 key
I thought I was the only one that did this :<
I did that too when I used arrow keys. I switched to NumPad Arrow keys and mapped all important Roper F-Keys to it. I had f8,f1,f2 and f5 all around the arrow keys.
Quote from: DeathInFire on August 17, 2012, 01:15 PM
Quote from: ropa on August 17, 2012, 08:32 AM
Quote from: Cueshark on August 17, 2012, 12:52 AM
I remap F8 to my num 0 key
I thought I was the only one that did this :<
I did that too when I used arrow keys. I switched to NumPad Arrow keys and mapped all important Roper F-Keys to it. I had f8,f1,f2 and f5 all around the arrow keys.
similar to mine:
right shift as space
numepad 0 as f8
arrows as arrows
numepad 7 8 9 for f1 f2 and f5
How I warm my fingers
[Conchetumare!].WAgame
The funny thing is that the macros used by most players dont send an extra input or sequence, the programs simply turns off 1 space when you press the other one so you wont have to lift up one finger before pressing the other one. This makes "tapping" super easy compared to just having remapped the keys. I try to make them send me the keyremapper all the time, to check if they are cheating(just for fun), and alot of players ARE cheating and many of them arent even aware of it! I could name a list of players you all know, that I know with certainty are cheating because I have "phished" the program out of them :P But I don't feel like doing that... I don't think the question here is how to find the cheaters and ban them, but rather rise awareness somehow on what is cheating and what is not
I remember I played with macro, with dblshopper, with fr, with 2 fingers 1 space, even tried uwt lol. But after all I come back to 1 finger, there is always bigger room for improvement with it.
I'd say cheats help you to become a good roper, but it's impossible to become the best with them