cFc recently lost 1-2 overall, we won 5 points, and lost 141 points.
It's cool to lose to Cw, they are nice clan, and improving alot, but to lose 136 points, for 1-2, 3 games in a row, it just doesn't feel right, I am not complaining I just have an idea, why can't we change the point system for Clanners?
Like lower the middle point thing, what's it called? ELO Range or something? Is it 40? Instead of losing/winning up to 80 points, we should lower it to 25-30? So points to win/lose is 50/60?
For singles it's ok for losing 80 points because the individual is responsible and average win % are much higher in Singles than Clanners. I mean when I lose BnG, to anyone, I will lose 70+, but that's ok because my win % reflects this. But because clans have lower win % maybe we should lower the ELO Range in Clanners to reflect the average win %?
The overall rating should reflect the clan's skill in this scheme with the clan's average team.
The current system is exactly doing this, so its fine. There has to be a peak that you can reach as long as you dont have 100% winnings (which I doubt anyone will ever have). ;d
Quote from: Random00 on July 05, 2011, 08:26 AM
The overall rating should reflect the clan's skill in this scheme with the clan's average team.
The current system is exactly doing this, so its fine. There has to be a peak that you can reach as long as you dont have 100% winnings (which I doubt anyone will ever have). ;d
Sure, but even CF complain about the amount of points lost even when you are winning games.
3 games, and winning 1, and still losing 136 points, that's a joke mate lol.
Especially when cFc really only have all these points because we play like 50% more than the rest of Wnet lol.
How exactly is changing that ELO value to say 30 going to fix your problem? It's the same shit with different numbers. :D
Imo the system is perfectly fine in that way, if you got lots of overall points every loss is painful. May be discouraging at times but it's certainly not unfair. :)
Well yeah I thought of that, but balancing out the win ratio, it's still better I think in the longrun.
The ratings shouldn't be sky high, it is there doing its job showing the top players/clans. Like in our case it shows top clans CF and cFc just like it should work. I know its annoying to lose 50x times more than from a win, but hey if other clans are not as skilled as u guys, dun worry they wont be as high rating as u r =D
Yeah but remember I said Cw are cool haha they deserved the wins, I was focusing soley on the swapping of points being way out of proportion for a 1-2 defeat, we win 5 points, and lost 141 points, think about it? That much of a point difference, only because cFc play literally 3/4x more than any clan, we don't have a high win %, jus cuz we play more, does this make sense?
1 CF 710 526 184 74.08% +3 +24/-4 6712 [Elite]
2 cFc 2036 1339 697 65.77% -2 +22/-11 6508 [Elite]
3 ps 1309 763 546 58.29% +2 +19/-11 5250 [Field Marshall]
4 doH 576 386 190 67.01% -5 +15/-5 4953 [Major]
5 TaG 1700 903 797 53.12% +1 +17/-17 4590 [Highly Distinguished]
Look at the games played/win % and points, doH should be higher than us, ps (in recent 1 year) should be above us with their recent win %.
CF are pretty true, their games played win % still being higher than cFc with 2036 games played and 1339 won.
You know what i'm going nowhere with this lol, you are all right, stupid idea lol...
The system makes your own Overall Rating and Win% not mean as much as they did in the past.
Focus on your season rating, which reflects your performance in this current season. Overall just shows how you've done historically.
Also don't focus much on Win%. It would only mean anything in an older system where everyone wins the same amount per game.
I don't think changing the points from 40 to 30 or 25 would makes a difference with the problem you're showing, Komo. Let's take the example you show here :)
Lose 141, win 5 is the case right now.
If we change it from 40 to 25, that's 37.5% less. (or 62.5% of the original; 40*0.625 = 25)
If we apply the same change, you'd win 0.625*5 = 3.125 points
You'd lost 141*0.625 = 88.125 points.
Overall, that's a loss of 85 points.
Yup, that's less points :) Still a large amount. But the problem lies somewhere else.
Let's look at the score you put up: CF has 6712, cFc has 6508
Now, the starting point is 1000. This means CF is 5712 points above it. Now these points also are different :)
5712*0.625 = 3570, so CF's new rating becomes 4570.
cFc's new rating becomes 1000 + (5508*0.625) = 4442.5
At first sight, the difference between the two clans looks smaller.
But let's see how big a chance it really is :)
Say you need 10 wins to bridge the gap. 204/10 = 20.4 points per win (current situation)
Now, we go to the new situation: the difference is now 127.5
The amount of points per win is 20.4 * 0.625 = 12.75
So even though the difference is smaller, you'll still need 10 wins.
As for the win percentage, franz pretty much sums it up in his last line :) win percentage only tells you something if you know who they played against in those very games. Scoring 50% against Random is a far better result than scoring 50% against me :)
So it's fair for there to be a better reward for scoring 50% against Random than for scoring 50% against me.
As for having more points by having played more games: I'm afraid that if we want to solve that (not sure whether it's a real problem or just cFc playing more difficult opponents here), a simple shifting of numbers isn't going to do the trick (for the reason I explained above), we'd need a new overhaul of the rating system entirely.
Quote from: DarkOne on July 05, 2011, 05:24 PM
As for the win percentage, franz pretty much sums it up in his last line :) win percentage only tells you something if you know who they played against in those very games. Scoring 50% against Random is a far better result than scoring 50% against me :)
So it's fair for there to be a better reward for scoring 50% against Random than for scoring 50% against me.
Maybe for specific players, but in this case it's a large variety.
In fact, the thing that gets me, is we only lose so much points to clans like Cw because they play less and we play more, they are a good clan, like I said they are improving alot, and fast, guuria is going to be a top 10 pretty much the way she's going.
That's why I feel sort of point raped, just cuz we've played over 2000 games we have so many points, and end up losing ridiculous points even though we get scores like 2-2 1-3 1-2 1-1 etc, even when we win like 3-1 we still sometimes lose 20-30+ points, If we win 3-1, we should gain points, if it's a weaker clan then fair enough, but surely we shouldn't be losing "overall" standings points, when we actually win 3-1 overall... That's the kicker for me lol.
Many games doesn't necessarily mean many points.
Phanton: Games: 4043 Win%: 65.64% Points: 3768
pr: Games: 323 Win%: 65.63% Points: 3867
It may be that cW still haven't reached their skill level, because they didn't play enough yet. But this imbalance will level out in the long run ;d
The current overall rating system has some problems with new players, because their start rating most likely is not there skill rating. But system's that cover these problems will most likely have some major other problems, so it fine like it is :)
Focus on your season rating Komo, as that's the most important.
If you could hide overall rating, I think you would benefit from it.
Consider the points cW wins as encouragement, making them play more.
Help fellow league mates to enjoy the league instead of hogging all points ;]
If cW does deserve to be higher, then in the long run they will get there.
Encourage cW and play them so you might win their future points. if you can ;p
Quote from: Random00 on July 06, 2011, 11:14 AM
It may be that cW still haven't reached their skill level, because they didn't play enough yet. But this imbalance will level out in the long run ;d
I think that's the main problem here :) Perhaps it could be a good idea that for the overall rating (not the season rating, obviously) there's a multiplier in play; for the first 10-20 games, the amount of points won (or lost!) is multiplied by a certain amount, so they will reach their real overall rating quicker, leading to less problems with older clans losing points.
I may not be expressing myself very well, so I'll give an example :)
Clan PRO is a new clan, but the players that are in it are already very good. Their starting rating is 1000.
Now, clan PRO shows exactly how good they are and win the first 10 games. Each game wins them 60 points on average. So now, their overall rating is 1600 and their seasonal rating is 1600.
No problem with the seasonal rating, but their overall rating is clearly too low.
Now let's add in a multiplier :) I'll just a random number out of my ass: 4.
For the seasonal rating, nothing has changed, so their seasonal rating is 1600.
For the overall rating, their points are multiplied, so they win 10 times (4*60) = 2400 points. So their new overall rating is 3400 points. From that moment on, ratings are calculated as they should be.
So what has changed with regards to seasonal playoffs?
For PRO: Nothing. The amount of points they get for their seasonal rating depends only on their own seasonal rating, so no problem there.
For PRO's opponents: Well, for the first couple of clans nothing. But since the overall rating quickly goes towards the level that it should be, they lose less seasonal points.
But that seems to solve the problem Komo points out; Clan PRO is so strong that losing a lot of points for losing against them seems unreasonable.
I wonder what you guys think about this :) Let's discuss!
A new clan's initial rating could also be determined by the average singles ratings of every player of the clan. But this could also lead to other problems, I'm not sure. :)
Quote from: DarkOne on July 06, 2011, 04:37 PM
I wonder what you guys think about this :) Let's discuss!
I think what your describing is the same as
ratings deviation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glicko_rating_system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glicko_rating_system).
I proposed this a long time ago (and more than once), but it always gets lots in opinion-jungle :)
Quote from: darKz on July 06, 2011, 04:46 PM
A new clan's initial rating could also be determined by the average singles ratings of every player of the clan. But this could also lead to other problems, I'm not sure. :)
Fishy, IMO. Singles and clans are two different leagues and not everybody plays both. So it's inaccurate from the beggining.
Quote from: Rok on July 06, 2011, 04:46 PM
Fishy, IMO. Singles and clans are two different leagues and not everybody plays both. So it's inaccurate from the beggining.
Of course it's inaccurate, but wouldn't it fix part of the problem?
Edit: Nevermind, a reset would do the trick if the score is below 1000.. So it's kinda unfair. :)
Let new clans earn their rating like everyone else had to.
If a clan worries so much about points lost to a new clan,
then avoid playing them until they've played 10 or 20+ games.
Otherwise play them anyway and help them get to their true rating.
realize that Komo isn't even complaining about new clans though. cW clanned the last 5 seasons.
he was using overall rating points to exaggerate his argument, when season rating matters more.
instead of focusing on
cfc winning 5 overall pts and losing 141 overall pts
cfc won 35 season pts and lost 98 season pts
also realize that cW's lifetime record vs cfc is 2-37, so it took them 38 games to even win
Quote from: franz link=topic=9501.msg75544#msg75544
Let new clans earn their rating like everyone else had to.
If a clan worries so much about points lost to a new clan,
then avoid playing them until they've played 10 or 20+ games.
Are seriously condoning clans avoiding other clans?
I don't care what the situation is there is no excuse for a clan avoiding another clan, c'mon man.
I actually encourage clans playing each other no matter what.
I'd rather see a healthy league where everyone enjoys playing everyone else.
Even if a great clan loses to a lower clan, realize how happy that clan feels to finally win and likely play more and improve.
You'll win your points back in the long run because you are a great clan, and you are spreading around good sportsmanship.
on the other hand, there will be people who don't want to lose points to an improving clan or a new clan.
my comment about avoiding for a few games was directed to those people, should they feel so strongly and not want to change their stance.
Quote from: franz on July 06, 2011, 05:33 PM
I actually encourage clans playing each other no matter what.
I'd rather see a healthy league where everyone enjoys playing everyone else.
Even if a great clan loses to a lower clan, realize how happy that clan feels to finally win and likely play more and improve.
You'll win your points back in the long run because you are a great clan, and you are spreading around good sportsmanship.
on the other hand, there will be people who don't want to lose points to an improving clan or a new clan.
my comment about avoiding for a few games was directed to those people, should they feel so strongly and not want to change their stance.
As a mod; should a clan that is avoiding another clan not be penalized?
Your saying you encourage clans to actively play all other clans but if they strongly don't want to play the other clan they don't have to?
As a mod I think you should rethink and retract your original statement.
There are no rules about avoiding, but you seem to have a strong stance on it.
If you'd like to voice your opinion or get everyone else's, I encourage you to write up a rule about avoiding and how to enforce it.
A new thread about it might be more appropriate since this thread might want to continue to talk about the clanner point system.
Quote from: Dub-c on July 06, 2011, 05:39 PM
As a mod
Going totally off-topic here, but that little addendum always make me want to strangle puppies :(
Why can't we have our own personal opinions on a matter? It's fine if you think our opinion isn't the way you think it should be. Speak your mind and we will speak ours. And if we were wrong and you convince us, we'll change our mind.
If we disagree with somebody, we don't edit their posts, remove their posts, bad them from forums. Basically, we don't use us being a mod to gain any sort of advantage over anybody (and for good reason). Don't hold it against us when you disagree, that's just unfair.
Back on topic :)
If you think someone is a royal douche and you don't want to play him/her/it, don't you think you're allowed to avoid him/her/it?
I thought WA was all about fun. There's no million dollar prize to win here. There's no eternal glory and international fame to win here. So why force someone into playing someone they won't have fun against?
atleast you guys has a king here. :D
Quote from: franz on July 06, 2011, 02:38 PM
Focus on your season rating Komo, as that's the most important.
If you could hide overall rating, I think you would benefit from it.
Sorry I had to post this before reading anything else.
Franz lol (and this is said with a sort of laughing tone, not angry, before the deluded idiots who think they know everything and have nothing to do with this post or no interest in it decide to stick their f@#!ing noses in and start another stupid flamewar jus cuz they don't like me, so stfu and stay away ya sad f@#!s :) ), I couldn't give a flying f@#! about silly seasonal points mate, I take more pride in overall standings, and so would other people too if the system didn't f@#!ing rape them so much, recently cFc have made every PO with a pretty high win %, but it wasn't so long ago we had 50-70% which is pretty damn low, imo anything under 70% is pretty much average.
To be honest, I pretty much hate the WA points system in general, every single League for WA has had inaccurate standings due to the fact NO ONE plays a similar amount of games with the same players. I only played BnG in Singles for the simple fact I love BnG and to see what kinda record I could achieve, I only play Clanners cuz I love professional level and serious games 2v2 style, especially with cFc cuz I get along with them so well.
For me the ONLY fair ways to play are in Tournaments and Cups, you just can't go wrong there as long as everyone finishes.
I honestly think we should setup a seperate league for the ACTIVE/Professional/Unavoiding players of Wnet where it's based on playing every other player a set number of games.
The system we have now, will NEVER be fair or accurate enough, this is a fact, no matter who begs to differ or how you look at it, however, it's still fun xD
Dammit, Komo, stop being so angry! :-[
I can see where you're coming from. In fact, it's one of the reasons I stick to cups :) Well, that and I get to pick my own schemes :-*
But if I recall correctly, the league form where everybody plays everybody has been tried before in BnG (GoBaG) and RR (LoS) and neither of them were very successful in getting the games done.
FB once tried a group war of some sort where people challenged other people, but that competition also dried out after an initial hot start.
The problem is that not everybody tries equally hard to get their games done.
Nevertheless, new ideas are always welcome :) I once hosted a RR tourney that utilized the swiss tournament system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss-system_tournament
I even allowed draws to count there :) Went reasonably well, I thought.
Bah, the sad truth is you are right though D1, no one will ever be interested, to be honest, why the hell do people even play Leagues for WA anyway when more than 60% of the overall players avoid people, noob bash etc, find new ways to cheat COUGHCOUGHsniperCOUGH j/k lol.
But yeah, CF are amazing with how they play their games, from what Random(or SPW) can't remember which one, alot of the time they only play when they have a good squad on, they might pick their opponents worst scheme with players available, they measure the chances they have of winning the scheme with most points with what players available, I envy this, although it's noob bashing even though it's not, it's only noob bashing because the way TuS system works, when in reality it's genius yet still challenging, if every clan had to play every other clan a set number of games, then points and winning would become increasingly crucial and in a matter of time it would get inactive, I mean, no one would want the weaker players to play for their clan, this is the biggest flaw cuz this game is all about friends and fun and learning, at least for me.