The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Leagues => Leagues General => Topic started by: MonkeyIsland on June 19, 2010, 04:43 PM
-
Ok, I guess it's time for another update on the leagues.
Collected ideas so far:
- Tuning report page:
- Changing 'more games to report' select box, to a checkbox. (Cost you 1 click instead of 2)
- When using more games to report, member names stay in the fields, so that you don't have to select them again.
- Other members of a clan will be able to report clanners.
- [NAil's] Worms Award (https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/tus-discussion/game-awards/)
- [pr's] Watcher mode (https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/tus-discussion/watcher-mode/)
- Showing your game result vs each of your opponents in games limitation table.
e.g. NAiL (5:2) as in you lost 5 games to NAiL and won 2. - PO 8/16 switch, depending on the season activity, PO goes for 16 people or 8. 16 (10 overall + 6 seasonal)
Post your ideas here.
-
I don't really understand the game limitation table, I mean, is that even necesarry? Show some message in the profile or for the user that it is not possible to play any more games in the specific season against the given player. Never understood why you had to list all those names there like that.
-
oh 16 ppl in PO ^^ will be more interesting but deadline should be put it (if it's not, dunno, i have never got PO in tus)
-
16 will definetly motivate more players in the upper overall ranks. Also i think display the standings with overall as the main. Seasonal secondary but clicking on the tab.
Noobs think komo is the best tus player at the moment when infact he is not and its random00!
-
Just do what I said... :( Put the overall statistics to a new link with no pages, just listing them all. Called "Ladder" maybe? And the seasonal stays where it is now.
-
oh MI you do great job with this site! Hope you can fix bugs in challange page too ;S
-
Perhaps another way to save a click is changing the "your pick" to "their pick" when reporting another, or vice versa. It's rare you report successive games of someones pick.
-
oh MI you do great job with this site! Hope you can fix bugs in challange page too ;S
Challenges have just been updated entirely. ???Perhaps another way to save a click is changing the "your pick" to "their pick" when reporting another, or vice versa. It's rare you report successive games of someones pick.
True point. Also maybe a method to somehow check for wrong reports? I mean, trying to find the participants' names in the replay's name? But some people use different names... Any ideas for that?
-
oh MI you do great job with this site! Hope you can fix bugs in challange page too ;S
Challenges have just been updated entirely. ???
yes! and there are still bugs! for example here https://www.tus-wa.com/challenges/members-stats/Maciej/ - i can't choose 2nd page, and i'm sure there are more, last time it was full of bugs, and my first challanges were for wQw and Monkey has never fixed it :(
-
Just do what I said... :( Put the overall statistics to a new link with no pages, just listing them all. Called "Ladder" maybe? And the seasonal stays where it is now.
I disagree. You don't want two different pages of standings for 1 league. Don't want another link across the top in league. The site is already full of content and features and adding unessecarly to it helps new comers who are learning the tus site.
Just have it so standings is overall. If you want to list it by seaosnal points you click seasonal. Exactly the same as how the site is now. But just reversed.
-
@Maciej, I fixed the pages. System has not recorded wQw as your clan. It had a bug before and it got deleted. But if that's this much important to you, tell me in which record IDs you were in wQw and I fix it.
@Leagues,
I will SURELY modify the standings page. But there's a very thin line between season table and season overall table which makes confusion. I'll just look into finding the best solution.
-
But at least delete the pages from the standings! Nothing bugs me more, I'm serious, every time I look at the standings I have to click "All".
-
Good ideas. Also 16 players in PO : You need to deal with deadline. More people means it will be more time to play the playoffs. Anyway I'm glad to see it =)
-
@Maciej, I fixed the pages. System has not recorded wQw as your clan. It had a bug before and it got deleted. But if that's this much important to you, tell me in which record IDs you were in wQw and I fix it.
oh, it works well now
All replays added before 20th of September 2009 were for wQw! pls fix it if you could, i have sentiment to wQw...
-
Yeah the standings should be displayed differently, it just makes no sense. What I mean is this:
(http://i47.tinypic.com/29z7q1e.png)
while.....
(http://i50.tinypic.com/2w1zf2t.png)
It just makes no sense IMO. :P
-
cough * overall * cough
-
Whole TUS rating system should be more based on Wormers ACTUAL needs instead having an too fancy rating system.
-
Free, what exactly do you mean? So, what would you advice in practise?
By the way, this is an endless discussion, impossible to find the happy medium. :) But let's keep trying. :P
-
Why do you need to find a medium? It's a fact that it makes more sense to display the standings by overall rating. As it is right now I gotta search all the pages of the standings if I wanna see who's in playoffs. :P And in general it's not right to show the standings in an order inappropriate to the skill of the players..
-
The main question is: who should be in Playoffs?
If we all have the same answer to this, then we can find a solution how to get these people into the playoffs with a fair system.
-
Its only Ray who argues for seasonal points display of standings.
Once the standings are displayed with overall first to cause less confusion and the playoffs having 16 spots. 10 for overall, 6 for seasonal i think who makes playoffs will be fair.
-
btw what do you think about 10 overall with 6 seasonal places? I mean how do you match them together?
-
FB had 12 and 4 handicaps (basically seasonal) Im not sure how they grouped them. Darkone may remember. He was in charge of the playoffs..
-
Its only Ray who argues for seasonal points display of standings.
Who told you that? ???
-
Its only Ray who argues for seasonal points display of standings.
Who told you that? ???
no one else backs you up!
and then me, dark, random00 and free all seem to agree hehe
-
Whole TUS rating system should be more based on Wormers ACTUAL needs instead having an too fancy rating system.
Free, enlighten us, what are the ACTUAL needs of an average wormer? We've heard a lot complaints about how weird the rating system is, but I don't remember one single post in which someone would actually propose something better. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong. We've only been discussing playoffs requirements so far, which is fine, but no one tried to come up with a rating system. The current system is in no way fancy, as you call it.
It's a simple system based on so called "ELO rating system". (Yes, I repeat this for zillionth time). There's a number of sites on the net explaining it (including wikipedia), yet I wonder how many people actually read about it and tried to understand its 'hows' and 'whys' before they start to complain. FB's system, which is so praised by some, worked the same way as ours, with slight difference in numbers.
So what are the needs of wormers? 2 points for win, -1 for loss? Less points for loss, like it already was in TUS? Ideas, people! Mind you that we already had a discussion when this league was just starting and ratings were prefered over points back then.
I'm not picking up on you Free, as it may look like, I just took your post as an example :)
-
Yeah, I agree it's hard to find good medium for everyone, but here's my take.
I don't like ELO-system at all, I think simple 2 pts for win, -1 for loss would be better for worming community. I see it would boost overall and seasonal activity (average wormers wanna compete also with their 1-2 strong schemes) and most importantly, it makes it more fun. Every season would be fresh start with the new hype going on amongst players.
You can pick the scheme you actually WANT TO play, that's the main idea here, for a wormer to have fun while competing. In TUS singles it's not that big of a problem because you can find variety in Singles often and quite fast, but in clanners it gets annoying sometimes. You're chilling with your clanm8 and you guys would like to play Elite against some clan but after you finally find a clan, you notice that you get too low points for it, you're forced to pick Hysteria/WxW instead, which weren't the schemes you actually WANTED TO PLAY. :)
ELO-system forces you to become all-round if you want to be successfull, but so would this system also. People pick their strongest scheme so you're forced to become good at them also if you want to make + points.
Were a small community and we just want to have fun while having a competition between us, why restrict the amount of fun we can have when we just want to play the scheme(s) we'd like. There would be still tactical picks going on and all that jizz.
-
What you wrote is all fine, but the problem is that many people dislike the 'scheme-bashing' on the other hand. About the activity:
season 7: 1102 singles, 357 clanners
season 8: 2155, 369
season 9: 2750, 480
season 10: 2918, 644
season 11: 2924, 833
season 12: 3192, 787
this season's estimates: ~4300 singles, ~880 clanners!
I doubt that points system could significantly improve this trend :) It surely enables more noob bashing and also you need to limit the amount of games/season otherwise the activity plays too big role in standings.
While I think points system is completely inapropriate for singles league, it could actually do good for clan league, I guess. Go ahead and try convince people and of course the almighty boss of all this - MI. :)
-
Free, I've only been playing TuS for like 20 days now, and already I am 27th, some players I play are good, some are not so good, I try to play everyone I can, I pick BnG 99.5% of matches because I enjoy it, notice my last 40+ games (BnG) i've been receiving 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3 points a game, and I am still winning enough of other person's pick, to get good points, and what is even cooler, against the players I know I can beat in other schemes, I could easily have been picking those, and by now I would have at least another 400-600 points, so yeah I agree, pick what you enjoy, not what you can get points with, cuz after all, what are points worth to you if you haven't enjoyed getting them?
-
Yeah, limiting games / season would actually hurt activity between some players, but I think it would boost all-round activity (more players). I don't mind singles that much anyways, since there's enough variation going on between players. My main point has been that most of the wormers just want to have fun while competing, so why restrict their picks.
I'd definately like to see things change in Clanners though, as they are pretty rare candy. :)
-
In all seriousness.
Howcome in normal clan league games, 2 clans could play say, 4 games in a row, all same scheme if they so choose...
But in playoffs - it has to be all-round...
I know it's an all-round league, but theres a flaw there, especially cuz you can do same scheme for normal games, just not playoffs, Just like, it's unfair because I am so good at BnG, I will always have an all-round win ratio of at least 65% because 50% of games are BnG, and I always win around 15% of other games, which would make it so I can get playoffs easy - this is unfair, but more to the point, kind of stupid, because if you think about it I won't really have a chance against the best players all round, well I might i'm at least average in every scheme and pretty strong at Roper/TTRR when I have good mentality, but I think you know what I mean...
-
In all seriousness.
Howcome in normal clan league games, 2 clans could play say, 4 games in a row, all same scheme if they so choose...
But in playoffs - it has to be all-round...
Because...
...it's an all-round league...
::)
... it's unfair because I am so good at BnG, I will always have an all-round win ratio of at least 65% because 50% of games are BnG, and I always win around 15% of other games, which would make it so I can get playoffs easy - this is unfair, but more to the point, kind of stupid, because if you think about it I won't really have a chance against the best players all round, well I might i'm at least average in every scheme and pretty strong at Roper/TTRR when I have good mentality, but I think you know what I mean...
Let's make a summary of your season:
Out of 200 games played 100 were bngs. You won 99 and lost 1. You gained 1138 points in bng games.
In other 100 games you scored 63 wins and 37 loses and gained 1166 points, which is pretty good.
Now let's assume a similar situation in next season. You play 100 bngs, but this time you'll get like 200 points at most.
Add around 1000 from another 100 games of other schemes, and you'll be at 2200 seasonal score, not 3300 as now.
You can see it won't be as easy to enter playoffs with 50% of bngs as you might think. You can still qualify by overall rating, which would be around 4500 at that point. Right, it's an all round league.
Do you still think it's unfair?
You say it's stupid, because you won't have a chance against all-round players. You will, because of high overall rating and because you're actually a good allround player, no matter how you emphasize your bng awesomness ::) If however, you'd still find yourself not having a chance against allrounders, then that'd mean you're simply not good enough, right? That's not stupid, that's fair.
-
In all seriousness.
Howcome in normal clan league games, 2 clans could play say, 4 games in a row, all same scheme if they so choose...
But in playoffs - it has to be all-round...
Because...
...it's an all-round league...
Lol you missed my point I obviously KNOW this for playoffs, but why let singles/clanners pick same scheme twice in qualifying games?
What I mean is, for my 1st season, and anyone else that is obviously better in 1 scheme than any other, it is unfair to reach playoffs, what I actually mean is, because I win so many BnG's I more or less have no chance to lose 2/2 games, kind of saving points lost if you wish, so when I win 2/2 it's always better.
If you understand?
-
What I mean is, for my 1st season, and anyone else that is obviously better in 1 scheme than any other, it is unfair to reach playoffs, what I actually mean is, because I win so many BnG's I more or less have no chance to lose 2/2 games, kind of saving points lost if you wish, so when I win 2/2 it's always better.
If you understand?
I understand your point, which is btw isn't correct. Thing is, bng games won't "kind of save your points lost" anymore now when your rating got so high. You obviously don't understand my points, especially this one: ...you're actually a good allround player, no matter how you emphasize your bng awesomness ::)
-
Lol you missed my point I obviously KNOW this for playoffs, but why let singles/clanners pick same scheme twice in qualifying games?
What I mean is, for my 1st season, and anyone else that is obviously better in 1 scheme than any other, it is unfair to reach playoffs, what I actually mean is, because I win so many BnG's I more or less have no chance to lose 2/2 games, kind of saving points lost if you wish, so when I win 2/2 it's always better.
If you understand?
I'd say the reason is that in the qualifying season, you get to play as many games as you like, whereas in playoffs, there's only 5 games maximum.
It's fine if you make it into the playoffs cause of 1 scheme, but getting there with just 1 scheme will (in principle, of course) not be possible a second time and definitely not a third time; a win in BnG will win you less and less points and the occasional loss (it happens apparently! I thought it was just a TUS bug ;)) will cost you a lot of points.
Losses in other schemes, in essence, will cost you more points than the BnG will gain for you.
You can play BnG all you like, but there are plenty of people/clans who don't want to play BnG, which means you will play other schemes plenty as well (as can be seen with you).
As Rok already pointed out, you clearly are a good allrounder, probably partly because of prodigal BnG skills ;) So in that aspect, you clearly deserve your playoff spot, not just because of BnG.
Basically, this is the longer version of what Rok just posted, but I found it a waste not to post it now ;D
-
What I mean is, for my 1st season, and anyone else that is obviously better in 1 scheme than any other, it is unfair to reach playoffs, what I actually mean is, because I win so many BnG's I more or less have no chance to lose 2/2 games, kind of saving points lost if you wish, so when I win 2/2 it's always better.
If you understand?
I understand your point, which is btw isn't correct. Thing is, bng games won't "kind of save your points lost" anymore now when your rating got so high. You obviously don't understand my points, especially this one: ...you're actually a good allround player, no matter how you emphasize your bng awesomness ::)
Nah, what I mean is, If I was to play A roper and a elite, I have a good chance of losing BOTH games, so I'd lose MORE points, while with BnG every time, the chances will always be above 95% I will win at least 1 game, this way, saving some points I could lose with other scheme for example IF I was to be extremely lame, if it wasn't for the fact I just LOVE BnG, I could do the following:
Against all very good all round players, I could always pick BnG, against bad players, I could pick the scheme that gives me most points instead of BnG. (Obviously I don't do this as I pick BnG no matter what anyway cuz I just like it so darn much ! lol)
Now do you understand?
-
Nah, what I mean is, If I was to play A roper and a elite, I have a good chance of losing BOTH games, so I'd lose MORE points, while with BnG every time, the chances will always be above 95% I will win at least 1 game, this way, saving some points I could lose with other scheme for example IF I was to be extremely lame, if it wasn't for the fact I just LOVE BnG, I could do the following:
Against all very good all round players, I could always pick BnG, against bad players, I could pick the scheme that gives me most points instead of BnG. (Obviously I don't do this as I pick BnG no matter what anyway cuz I just like it so darn much ! lol)
Now do you understand?
Lots of people pick their schemes because of how they think their chances are, sir! I wouldn't find you lame or unfair at all if you chose the tactics you described earlier, since it's the manner in which you play those schemes that counts.
And in the playoffs, as mentioned, you can't pick just one scheme :)
Basically, you're saying it's unfair because you're in a league of your own in BnG, which sounds weird to me.
Why shouldn't you be able to compensate other schemes with your specialisation?
-
Nah, what I mean is, If I was to play A roper and a elite, I have a good chance of losing BOTH games, so I'd lose MORE points, while with BnG every time, the chances will always be above 95% I will win at least 1 game, this way, saving some points I could lose with other scheme for example IF I was to be extremely lame, if it wasn't for the fact I just LOVE BnG, I could do the following:
Against all very good all round players, I could always pick BnG, against bad players, I could pick the scheme that gives me most points instead of BnG. (Obviously I don't do this as I pick BnG no matter what anyway cuz I just like it so darn much ! lol)
Now do you understand?
Lots of people pick their schemes because of how they think their chances are, sir! I wouldn't find you lame or unfair at all if you chose the tactics you described earlier, since it's the manner in which you play those schemes that counts.
And in the playoffs, as mentioned, you can't pick just one scheme :)
Basically, you're saying it's unfair because you're in a league of your own in BnG, which sounds weird to me.
Why shouldn't you be able to compensate other schemes with your specialisation?
Kinda it like Free thinks I have "Elite vision" and everyone automatically thinks I have an advantage at Hysteria and Elite with BnG shots lol, but you can easily hide against this.
-
Sry, but Im too lazy to quote all the stuff I want to refer to ;/
First of all, an ELO rating system is in fact the best system we can have in general.
If we had a system where you get 2 points for a win and -1 for a loss, then players that are very good in 1 scheme just have to play as much as possible and they allways get a PO spot. If you do a limitation on the maximum games per season to prevent this, then you would decrease the overall tus singles activity which would be very bad imo. (Its nice to see how many games Phanton does every season, and I dont see any reason to let him play less games).
The "problem" with the ELO system is, that everyone has a theoretical limit of points he can get if he plays very constant (means: if he wins 90% in every scheme then he wins 9 games, then loses 1 game, then wins 9 games, then loses 1 game and so on; its a theoretical thing, tough ;) ). You'd always have some little ups and downs depending on your current situation, but everyone has such a limit he will reach when he has played enough games. At this limit every single scheme rating shows his true skill in this scheme compared to every other player in the community.
I guess you will reach this limit when you played like 10,000 games or maybe evene more. But after 300-600 games you can see a trend where your limit as.
I'm not sure how many new players we have each season, but the fact that there come new players has mostly a positive influence on your maximum ranking limit.
What I want to say with all this talking about the limit is, that there is a point where you theoretically do 1000 seasonal points each season and you have simply NO chance to qualify per seasonal rating. The problem now is that the amount of games played by each player is very different and players who didnt play much and are actually good will have an easy qualification for the playoffs.
Sure, if they did good, they deserve to be in Playoffs, but the players that will qualify for playoffs in this way will be worse and worse every new upcoming season.
And then these players will have very low chances to win their first playoff match while a #10 overall player has a bigger chance to beat an overall top5 player.
At the moment, I'd be fine with 10 overall, 6 seasonal or 12 overall, 4 seasonal (prefering the second) if we have 16 po spots and 6 overall, 2seasonal if we have 8 po spots.
But I see a tendency that this maybe needs to be changed again in the future (might be possible that this takes another year or so, and maybe we have a lot of new problems then, who knows? :D ).
Nah, what I mean is, If I was to play A roper and a elite, I have a good chance of losing BOTH games, so I'd lose MORE points, while with BnG every time, the chances will always be above 95% I will win at least 1 game, this way, saving some points I could lose with other scheme for example IF I was to be extremely lame, if it wasn't for the fact I just LOVE BnG, I could do the following:
Against all very good all round players, I could always pick BnG, against bad players, I could pick the scheme that gives me most points instead of BnG. (Obviously I don't do this as I pick BnG no matter what anyway cuz I just like it so darn much ! lol)
But I guess you cant qualify for PO with this tactics in 3 seasons in a row. It only works when you still get a decent amount of points vs weaker overall players AND you get a decent amount of points for winning your bng matches. But when you reach the point where you win max. 10 points in both, then you wont make more then 1500 seasonal points.
And you already reached this line for your bng games ;)
And sorry for the long post :D
-
Kinda it like Free thinks I have "Elite vision" and everyone automatically thinks I have an advantage at Hysteria and Elite with BnG shots lol, but you can easily hide against this.
Well, it does help :) I won't say my BnG shots are in any way impressive, but I can do fairly good shots in hysterias. This makes it easier for me to have a good spot, or to put it another way, it forces my opponents to hide better, making their own shots harder.
Making good shots isn't everything, but it makes the need for tactical placement less necessary :)
-
Change the way people rate games please ! :).
Also rating while reporting would be nice.