The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Leagues => Leagues General => Topic started by: MonkeyIsland on January 06, 2009, 08:22 AM
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Why does the system still calculate new points with the old score, if there was a reset?
*System calculates your rank by all the games you have done no matter in what season*
- To make people play with their nearest rank.
Imagine some player reached the rank elite. It means that he is great player in that scheme, right?
Now he plays in the next season. He starts off at 1000 pts. But should the system count him as absolute beginner too?
If so, Then he can play with noobs and gain enough points. Since he is elite in that scheme, he can beat lots of noobs, and go up easy ...
But if the system count him as an elite player, he better play with higher ranked players to gain enough points, than noob bashing.
It is not a total solution for noob bashing, But still it decreases some.
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That idea isn't bad, but i think u didn't mind in that:
I can wait to 2nd or 3rd season to start playing TuS, then i'll get lot of points of good ranked players and i'll lose almost nothing, the most recent example was Shaggy against Flori, Shaggy is a good roper but he didn't play on 1st season, as u said u can't do a pre-rank, but like all saying would be better if at every season's start system calculate points from 1000 for all players, more fair..
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Sysem IS starting from 1000, but not rank. I know you know that ;)
In the example of Shaggy and Flori, The good side of the story is, IF someone good at something starts to play (as absolute beginner), He can reach his "true" rank very soon. To me it sounds like, although we can't give pre-rank, but the system helps that player reach his true rank very sooner than usual.
As Dario mentioned, TUS just needs a bit more seasons so that everybody reach his true rank.
Speaking of Dario, Imagine someone came to worms which we all don't know at all, but he has great skills at Inter.
So if he manage to beat Dario at Inter, Does he deserve to gain LOTS of points? and same for Dario to lose? (No offense Dario ;) )
However, If the system of TUS really bothers people, I wonder why there's no serious post about it. TUS has showed it is flexible enough.
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if the rating would not have been resetted then it would be fair! but now for season 2 we "lost" our points so we have to win 2 times more games than another clan to reach the playoffs. and thats definately not fair.
in this system in the end of a season 2 clans of a different skill level can have the same points though one of them is better and won more games.
in a soccer league you get 3 points for a win, no matter who your opponent was.
i really appreciate it to have tus but the rating system is a bit frustrating for me.
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I agree with Flint, its rly stupid system MI.
We also can play with new clantags every month. We dont care about any overall stats. But we dont want to win 4 times to equal one lose. Winning Percentage >75% should be at top positions at any ranks. Its anyway hard enough to get this 75% in Worms tbh.
Just think about it MI. Reset means reset everything. Like Soccer, as Flint wrote.
I dont attack u personally, its all about the system dude .
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I gotta say I agree with "New comers" to the league thing. For example bOr clan didn't play any game in season #1, but now they have started playing games.
If the points were not reset, then "seasons" would make no sense.
This is Dario's post EXACTLY pointing to this matter :
https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/index.php?topic=86.msg1104#msg1104
we have to win 2 times more games than another clan to reach the playoffs. and thats definately not fair.
It's true, But there's one thing here we are not considering :
If you play with lower ranked players then maybe you have to play 2 times more. There were players in the previous seasons which had a close rank to you (higher or lower), If you pick them to play games, You can earn enough points, or choose even higher ranked players?
The only thing is, "Super high" ranked players do not have this advantage as there's no one higher than them. Personally I don't think it is easy to stay on top. However I guess there will be always some close-ranked players to them to help them earn some reasonable points.
If some low ranked player beats a high ranked player he gains "their rank difference multiply 5", Maybe the number 5 is bothering people?
All things have been said, aside, Post a poll in the leagues ideas about reseting even ranks in every season. If the poll agrees with you, You got it then. :)
I dont attack u personally, its all about the system dude .
Dude I'm not a kid :D If it bothers, Then it bothers! Why take it personally? I'm looking for improvement.
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Jackdaniels only is highranked cause he did play a lot games in the first stadium of the league, later on you won't see him in the playoffs (like last season). We all saw a flawless system and there probably will never be one. We ALL have to keep in mind you play the game for FUN. Tho I agree this isn't the most perfect rank system, but the other side people like it (you can see that by the games played). Also I knew from the past new players/people with not enough skills didnt even play this game cause they knew there was no chance to even reach something in a league, with this season they actually got a small chance. For the good players in the playoffs this is kinda boring, but it also increased more activity on the league. Don't look only on the negative part of this league, before this there wasn't a league. I have to admit I was not really somebody that liked TUS, but I think monkey did set up a nice league and his system might work. You also can think is it fair if an active good player comes in the playoffs while he didn't even put 'work/time' in it?
The negative things of this league is that it is not so nice for the better players in this community but to change the rating system might be not a good idea since we saw changes (XTC) before which didn't go well (people keep complain) you always got people that like it and not in all ways, you never can statisfy all players. If we are thinking of a better system then we should look to a rating system looking to FB, I can remember franz made a nice table for an equal system for all players which was totally anti-bashing.
@Flint,SPW
I think getting a new clag is very childish, this only ruins the reputation of a clan.
It's the same like deleting your account on cases w2 and make a new account. This way clans will avoid you cause it makes no sense for them to play you which decrease activity in the clanleague (we already have such an inactive clanleague).
Something that would be possible in my opinion would be a total reset in an amount of time.
Once in the 4 months? Once in the 6 months? Once in the 3 months?
People could discuss about it. But even this isn't needed.
And what you reach with the playoffs? Your picture that's made on wormnet of your ability's the community knows anyways.
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Ok, I probably found the solutions.
System can also calculate the NUMBER of the games someone plays, And calculate the points according to that.
For example, In shaggy and Flori example,
System checks shaggy's number of games played in RR. (Which will prove to system he is a newbie in TUS), then it compares to Flori RR rank and number of games played (Which will tell the system he has played on TUS, sufficient number of games). finding that, system won't let shaggy gain 120 points and so for Flori to lose more points.
Winning pertentage as SPW mentioned. It is because almost 1 win = 2 loses. (standard win =40, lose = -21)
To solve that it must change, and also I guess beating low ranked people must give the winner less point that they are having right now.
ATM, the winner gains like this for beating a low ranked played : 40 - their rank difference.
So that for example if an elite player beats an absolute beginner, their diffrence is 20. so he will gain 40 - 20 = 20 which is still a lot.
I guess the better pattern would be : 41 - (their difference multiply 2)
So it will be 41 - (20 * 2) = 1 <-- The elite player gain for his noob bashing.
Yea I changed 40 to 41, to give him at least 1 point for noob bashing.
The changes will go to the version 1.6 which will come in a few days.
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We just want to reset ranks when new season started. It makes no sense hold them still in the system. Sometimes there arent any clans ready to clanner and what we do when a low-ranked clan want to clanner us? Of course we say yes, coz we want to clanner doesnt matter which clan is avaiable. But it makes no sense playing ~1 hour to get some 10 points and risk 100.
U understand what I mean MI? New Season, New Luck - For every Clan!
And its logical that CF complain to this system - other Clans dont care about and just laugh when they beat us.
@Unique, I wasnt rly to go this step with changing the clantag. I had some other things in my head but I wont telling it here because I just respect the work with this Page from MI.
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We just want to reset ranks when new season started. It makes no sense hold them still in the system.
Ageed.
I see your point Monkey, but seeing as WA consists of a small community, and an even smaller league playing community it does not make sense to reset the standings but keep the rankings the same... There are too little a number of league playing wormers for your idea of higher ranking players playing each other to work out!
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@SPW
I just was talking about that it is childish in general. I just was talking about what you and flint said. ;)
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Ah ok, nvm Unique :)
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ok, I see, there is finally some discussion about it, hehe :)
In my opinion it the rating system isnt balanced and fair like it is at the moment, and it wouldn't be the best solution to do a total reset. The best way is to keep everything as it was.
Why is there a reset after a season?
If you dont reset anything, you will see who is good in a scheme, and he deserves to win less points for winning his good scheme / losing more points for a loss.
The only problem with this system can be, that you have some very active player after ~3-6 months that has a lot of points and its kinda impossible to reach him in 1 month. Therefore you just should have to edit the playoff qualification. 50% of the overall top ranked players (just the ones who did enough games in the current month) and 50% of the best players in the current month.
It doesnt need to be 50% sure, but this system is in my opinion the fairest one I can think of.
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im with random on this, maybe if we kept our ratings from the last season and change playoff qualification, top 4 overall and top 4 for the month... i think fb's system was like this... (i could be wrong i got a bad memory)
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How about not starting new accounts on the lowest level?
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System is pretty unfair indeed. There could be players who would lose on purpose one season just to get more points in the next season and make their way to playoffs easier. I noticed that, because first season I almost didnt play any games, and now Im getting tons of points whenever I win. That should be changed IMO.
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The system changed today.
Now players/clans/country ranks are reset after each season too. But still you can view their rank by all the games they have done, by setting time machine to "Show all together". It means that the info is not lost. System just reset them for each season while keeping the stat for every season and game.
It was part of v1.6 but I see lot of people lost their patience. so it came sooner.
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The problems:
-People don't want their points to get reset every season. With the current points system resetting the points also means noobashers can keep on bashing the same noobs the bashed in the previous season.
-Ranks (elite, average, newbie, etc) seem not to work well enough, because a new player in the league get's too much advantage from that. I think it is good enough and only needs time, but obviously the rest of the players don't think the same and don't want to wait until this synergistic system starts working smoothly.
-If you don't reset the points, then after some months those who have played many games will have such an amount of points that it will be impossible for a new player, no matter how good he could be, to reach them.
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Alternative solution:
-Forget about ranks when calculating points (elite, average, newbie, etc.).
The points obtained and lost should no longer depend on that.
-Never reset the points
If in one season you had 5000 points, in the next season you won't necessarily go back to 1000.
-The points a player gets as base points for the next season could be proportional to the points he had at the end of the previous season (obviously less) so that a top-top-top player would still be inside the reach of new league players.
-All the scores get adjusted in the exact same way
Obviously you can't divide by 100 the points of the top player while you are dividing by 5 the points of other players.
-A new player should get an average amount of starting points
Someone who is new to the league shouldn't start with too many points compared to the other players because you could be turning a total newbp into a juicy target for noobashers who would pop each other eyes out fighting to be the first in sucking up the newb juice.
Also someone who is new to the league shouldn't start with too few points, otherwise if he turns out to be a good player he will have a really hard time at finding other good players to play with because they'd all be scared of losing too many points.
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Expected effects of this:
-If you had a good performance during the previous season you will have a small (depending on the adjustment used the advantage could be smaller or bigger) advantage during the next season. If you proved to be really good and active during one season you can relax, just a bit, the next one.
-At the beginning of a new season, newbs that played in previous seasons won't have too many points compared that good wormers that played in previous seasons. Therefore good wormers won't get much from noobbashing, because newbs will be just too low for them to get any significant profit.
-A new player, should be able to reach and even outrank top players of previous seasons if he is good enough. Because top players, even if they start with a certain advantage in points, won't have too many.
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Things to consider:
Finding out the best points adjustment from one season to the next one won't be an easy nor fast task, it will take some seasons to know which adjustment generates scores low enough so that new players can reach them and high enough to prevent a noob-bashing outbreak.
The first thing that comes to my mind is dividing by something the points of the top player so that the score gets reduced to a defined number (could be 1000?, 1500?, no idea.) and divide all the other scores by the exact same something .
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Nah Dario stop dreaming, Monkey did what 63.24% of ppl wanted, new season new rank, if u r a no0basher u will be no0basher always (i dont mean u, in general), isnt a problem of the system. Now i can play with all ppl in TuS and dont need to care bout his ranks, that 6 first days with old ranks i lost at least 200 points against Shaggy and Face cause they didnt play in 1st season. Now its fair and still funny.
Ty Monkey ;*
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The most problem I see, is people can't wait. They can't wait to give TUS some time to adjust itself as Dario mentioned too.
Another problem is our community being small, not so many players around.
Personally I don't think reseting both stats and points is a long time solution.
There ARE solutions with the "good players that are newbie in TUS" and I guess we can prevent noob bashing more.
-A new player should get an average amount of starting points
Someone who is new to the league shouldn't start with too many points compared to the other players because you could be turning a total newbp into a juicy target for noobashers who would pop each other eyes out fighting to be the first in sucking up the newb juice.
Also someone who is new to the league shouldn't start with too few points, otherwise if he turns out to be a good player he will have a really hard time at finding other good players to play with because they'd all be scared of losing too many points.
First of all, Thanks a lot for this post, not so many people go to this much trouble thinking for making it better. I'm grateful for that :)
I think if we give the new player an average amount of points, the bad thing about it is, It may make some people to register again with new account to have such advantage.
How you think about this:
like the forum that group people by their post, we have such groups for the games people play in TUS in total, not seasons.
How many games in an specific scheme you think someone must play in TUS, that we find out his true rank?
Lets say it is 40 games you need in every scheme to have your true rank.
So for example :
1 - 10 games -> Newbie
11 - 20 games -> Jr. Member
21 - 30 games -> Full Member
31 - 40 games -> Sr. Member
over 40 games -> Hero Member
atm, if a low ranked player beat the high ranked player, system gives him "their rank difference multiply 5"
Now this time system check their level in playing games. it finds out their level difference first. then consider that in the calculation points.
For example :
Player A has played 60 games in RR. (a hero member : level 5)
Player B just came to the league. (a league newbie : level 1)
Now Player B beats player A in RR, So He gain :
"Their points level difference" Multiply "5 - Their difference in playing TUS"
If they are elite and absolute beginner, then it will be :
40 + (20 - 1) * (5 - 4) = 59 points <-- Instead of gaining 135 points.
Hope it is clear enough.