The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
One-Boards => Maps => Topic started by: Turko on October 02, 2013, 01:17 AM
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This is a "worms question without answer" (like BnG rules :P )... What do you think about choosing a map to play elites?
Frist of all when I said "Elaborated maps" I dont mean saved maps... I mean maps like this one (https://www.tus-wa.com/maps/map-editor/?load=130032)
Ive heard some players saying "random maps are better becouse otherwise the game turns like a bng elite and its boring" or "elite means survive strategically in all kind of maps"
In my opinion when I play elite on random maps the game turns like "hysteria elite" I mean... whats the point of play strategically if your opponent can go to the other side of the map just using one rope?
I totally prefer elite in elaborated maps.
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del
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Not so flat nor elaborated, but balanced maps.
https://www.tus-wa.com/maps/map-editor/?load=128557
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Random maps just need to be chosen well; if you can get across the map in one turn then they're probably too simple. You definitely want to have a number of peaks and valleys so that mobility is reduced. On very complex maps, usually you can walk almost anywhere with ease, random maps help add variation to this, and make rope use a bit more strategic.
I definitely think you need to play well on both to be a complete player, on randoms you just need to think about placement a lot more. With fewer places to hide, you need to balance a number of things: having the best locations on the map (the spots that seem like they'll withstand BnG the best, as well as offer good hides to BnG from), having access to the best high ground for SD, having enough close worms to reinforce yourself, having some open worms to attack with (or possibly a worm for skunking), and especially having enough worms hidden away so you don't risk getting pummeled immediately.
On random maps, you really have to formulate a plan of attack, and this is almost entirely absent from many complex maps, where it's always at least an option to hide away and BnG without ever attempting to reach your opponent. There are many more instances where you can stop thinking during complex map games, but not so much for randoms.
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Wanna join REM community, Mab? You would have to quit ea first, though
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Offer seconded. :D
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Wanna join REM community, Mab? You would have to quit ea first, though
funny coste ;)
btw, i like random maps edited a bit, its easy to modify high in map and make some hides, clean sides and put a hide... easy to make a good elite map
anyway im agree with Mablak, u need to play in all kind of maps to become an good eliter
keep on trying Turko, u and all :) ( as me, im trying to be an eliter since i joined W:A, someday i will get it )
salut
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Eight years ago, sure, the vast majority of Elite players was able to do it tastefully so that all aspects of the scheme remained relevant despite minor modifications being done to random maps. Though even then already, some people refused to play the scheme on anything but the fruit texture, so it wasn't that hard to predict the direction in which things would go...
And so here we are.
In this day and age, I just think it's too dangerous to allow any sort of editing in Elite and Intermediate maps. It has become incredibly obvious that too many players can't handle the responsibility and simply end up constructing maps that suit their playing style, whether intentionally or subconsciously. The same is happening in BnG as well, by the way, but it just seems like your average league player doesn't know or care enough to argue about it with their opponent.
:'(
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About map textures... I remember when I start playing was almost obligatory use fruit... I get used to play in fruit, cheese and art... but its not bad idea try to play in forest, tribal or even jungle. My finished maps barely have 2 or 3 objects so Ill not deal with a big elephant in the middle of the map.
Edit: Ive played 2 games with guuria (-farm and urban) and it really worked, but In my way to create maps is impossible to play using some textures (for example, jungle or snow) without deleting some annoying pixels in the map, but if you use this kind of maps it could work...
Not so flat nor elaborated, but balanced maps.
https://www.tus-wa.com/maps/map-editor/?load=128557
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Not so flat nor elaborated, but balanced maps.
https://www.tus-wa.com/maps/map-editor/?load=128557
agreed.
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I started to use random non editted map since mablak owned me on them, and tbh I enjoy them more.
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The important thing is not to overpaint maps. Turkos example is way too much, for such a map you need more time until sd, then its ok. But some random maps are to simple, there yoo could just paint a little bit. But I agree with the most, a good player can proof it on every landscape.
About the texture. Well, fruit is nice to watch cause colourful and with sharp contures. There are some ones like "hell", just a fail from t17. Those textures are just not funny to play and an eliter wont give any value by winning/losing by pixels or unsharp contures. He usually want to feel that the better one wins by reducing the luck factor down to zero. Winds nobody can change so we all accepted that. But maps arent maps, so there is a chance.
But also with complex painted maps, you still can pile or nearpile the opponents worms so it turns out more tacticly. If the second guy going to the other side from beginning, sure it could turns out to elite bng.
Btw, welcome back turko :)
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i like random maps edited a bit, its easy to modify high in map and make some hides, clean sides and put a hide
Another difference between playing random or elaborated maps is find a good hide. Find a place to hide in random maps is really hard and in elaborated maps is too easy. I think the perfect balance are HHC's maps or Twyrfher's maps... not so tight but not "hysteria maps"
Though even then already, some people refused to play the scheme on anything but the fruit texture, so it wasn't that hard to predict the direction in which things would go...
Well predict the direction of skunks or sheeps is just part of the game... but in some textures (jungle for example) predict a sheep is a matter of luck...
A nice texture should be tools, easter or even -farm...
Btw, welcome back turko :)
Thanks :D
Wanna join REM community, Mab? You would have to quit ea first, though
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Though even then already, some people refused to play the scheme on anything but the fruit texture, so it wasn't that hard to predict the direction in which things would go...
Well predict the direction of skunks or sheeps is just part of the game... but in some textures (jungle for example) predict a sheep is a matter of luck...
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Though even then already, some people refused to play the scheme on anything but the fruit texture, so it wasn't that hard to predict the direction in which things would go...
Well predict the direction of skunks or sheeps is just part of the game... but in some textures (jungle for example) predict a sheep is a matter of luck...
A nice texture should be tools, easter or even -farm...
I meant the direction in which Elite as a scheme would go!
This whole "minimising luck factors" thing is just an excuse with which players force their opponents to play under conditions that are favourable for the host. No matter how simple an Elite map is, no matter what terrain texture is used, the conditions are the same for both players and so luck doesn't even come into play. Especially since it has been proven that even in high level Intermediate play where both the map and the worm placement are random, the statistical advantage for the player who gets first turn is about the same as in chess. Anyone arguing that Worms needs to be more fair than chess is going to have to come up with some pretty amazing justification for it before we blindly sacrifice important parts of the game to make it happen.
In modern Elite without crates, where we have manual placement (not to mention the ability to always generate random maps of the highest complexity with that slider in the terrain editor), there is no excuse not to use random maps. Filling them up until they're 90% terrain and look like Fort maps only narrows down the number of skillsets that are required to look like an experienced Elite player, and no matter how you spin it, that's a bad thing for the scheme and the game as a whole, as far as playing it competitively is concerned.
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I will still play any and every map, but of course everyone has their own preferences.
I usually take the time to find a complex enough random map and prefer cheese to add hides, but I am also fine with other people editing maps. I don't expect everyone to be as patient to find a complex enough random map or even complex enough reseeded objects, so if editing helps these people to get complex maps, go for it.
Just don't over do it and make it into a battlerace/moleshopper like map. Everyone should just try to find that happy middle ground. :)
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Playing elite in random maps is just predictable.. I mean...
The game starts: Tele worms... 6 or 7 turns of dinamytes, sheeps, shotguns and skunks until someone realizes that probably the next turn will lose.. then teleport to a hard hide (which the opponent can not reach)... then bazookas, grenades or molotovs till someone is encouraged and rope to atack... then fail and lose/ or works and win...
I think the elite maps must be edited (a little or a lot, depends the player and the map) not to "minimising luck facts"... to keep that "elite essence"... which makes this scheme different than intermediate or hysteria.
Anyway I have no problem to play in random maps, but I dont think thats the best way to play elite...
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Wait a second, if you find random map Elite always the same, what then are the situations that only happen on highly edited maps and can't happen on complex random maps? Can you describe some of them? Apart from being able to darkside extremely (so that getting to your cluster of worms is guaranteed suicide) and doing notched BnG shots from the first turn until sudden death, I honestly can't think of anything else. And those things are the definition of boring and predictable to me!
Have you been following EAC this year? What I've been noticing there is the complete opposite of what you just described. Many of the games on those terrible edited maps seem to play out exactly the same and end up being decided by some random grenade bounce that feels unsatisfying even to the winner, let alone anyone watching the game as a spectator. One player securing an advantage for himself in the early game can far too easily be reversed later on, when both sides are just going through the motions waiting for SD. Matches played on random maps on the other hand have a quicker pace, more situations in which a player is forced to quickly do something or risk losing their health/positional advantage, more varied attacks, the players have to display deeper knowledge of game mechanics, risk more, rely on turn advantage more often and so on and so on. Again, what other than this is the essence of Elite? The difference between this and Intermediate is huge, ask anyone who's any good at both schemes!
Mab said it perfectly earlier in this thread:
On random maps, you really have to formulate a plan of attack, and this is almost entirely absent from many complex maps, where it's always at least an option to hide away and BnG without ever attempting to reach your opponent. There are many more instances where you can stop thinking during complex map games, but not so much for randoms.
Which part of not having to think for long periods of time sounds like the essence of Elite to anyone here? :o
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Eddited maps turn into a fort game, random maps are the best if u are good at this scheme, ofc we will play every map, but random ones takes ur brain to the limit.