The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
One-Boards => Schemes => Topic started by: Chicken23 on March 28, 2021, 03:48 PM
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I just played a hysteria for TUS vs Lancelot and he didn't like that I was piling with teleport. I personally think Hysteria is a bit of a broken scheme and not a massive fan of it. Could the scheme rules be updated to say piling is illegal as a new house rule if that is how people prefer to play it today?
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Im much allergic to the turn abuse but Hyst isnt BnG to stay anchored.
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Not this again...
Holy moly guacamole I wish people would stop saying the scheme is broken when that is literally not true! :'(
Read through the debate in this thread which is the most recent discussion of Hysteria regarding this:
https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-16/
It's ridiculous people even complain about turn abuse in this scheme when turn abuse is a fundamental tactic of the whole f**king franchise! :D ;D
I wish people would cut the bs and just state the truth, they simply don't like the scheme and can't handle it as it is. Just stop saying it's broken, it's not! :P
If the vast majority of people want to change it, fine, but please stop saying it's broken when it's not. :'(
Also, the term "telecow" itself is ridiculous and doesn't make sense, since Hysteria has no rules, it's impossible to "cow" because in the world of Worms Armageddon, "cow" means you broke a rule, so it's not exactly the smartest thing to say lol. :P
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I do not see any strategy in this scheme to shout what to think here.
As practice shows, the vast majority of games are played through accurate shooting at the enemy.
In the last game with Chicken, I shot my opponent in the game, but he used the cow tactics to neutralize my total advantage in worms.
I will still consider that this is a very dirty trick.
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You don't have to like it for it to be an acceptable method of play. Case in point: Darkside play as a whole. The manuals for Worms, Worms: The Director's Cut, Worms 2 and Armageddon all describe Darkside play as underhanded and sneaky, but doesn't explicitly forbid it.
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To be honest, that's a fair response from Lancelot, he said he doesn't see strategy, not that it actually isn't there, just that he doesn't recognize it, which is fine.
And he considers it a dirty trick, but tbh that doesn't matter because it's just an opinion.
It's when people start labelling their opinions as facts that trouble starts.
If he cannot think ahead and protect his worms efficiently, that's his problem not ours anyway.
If he doesn't like it, whoop-dee-doo, the world would be boring if everyone liked the same things.
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Exactly. If you don't like it, fine, but that doesn't make it an illegal move. That's akin to complaining that your opponent in Chess has put their Knight somewhere that f@#!s up your planned victory. "I've been using a very particular strategy, and if you move your Knight in that position it totally throws off my entire gameplan!"
Which... yeah. That's Chess. Restrategize.
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In the last game with Chicken, I shot my opponent in the game, but he used the cow tactics to neutralize my total advantage in worms.
I actually forgot to address this.
Lancelot, it is a fact, that you are wrong here. It is not arguable, or up for debate.
A "cow" implies there was a rule broken, there are no rules in Hysteria, so it is 100% impossible to ever "cow" or use "cow tactics" in Hysteria.
Of course you can use the weapon called "Mad Cows", but that isn't the same as the term "cow" used for breaking rules.
For sure, you can say you don't like it, but just remember if you use the term "cow" in Hysteria, you are literally wrong, and will appear ignorant.
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the reason I started the thread was to ask if the current 'active' community was more against piling or don't mind it?
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Good luck getting them to post here. :D ;D
I mean, old people still have a right to vote.
I have to stand up for what I believe is the right choice anyway, and inform those who have been mislead by false information. As I still intend to come back and play Clanners in the future, i'm mostly busy with Uni stuff right now but summer time should be free more to play with Korydex and co. :)
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Having played another league game of hysteria, I made another conclusion that attempts to make something similar from the scheme for tactical and strategic moves lead to the fact that I personally become uninteresting to play hysteria within the league. I have said so before and will remain of this opinion. The scheme is tailored for shooting and changing positions, and not using dirty moves.
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You should really try Selecsteria (http://worms2d.info/Selecsteria) then.
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If piling is illegal hysteria needs worm placement. Making it illegal to pile puts too much emphasis on the advantageousness of the starting positions. I’ve written paragraphs and paragraphs on game theory with hysteria, but simply removing telecow does not make the the scheme a better competitive scheme, just more broken. The top hysteria players are the best not because they are the most cheap, but the most skilled.
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If piling is illegal hysteria needs worm placement. Making it illegal to pile puts too much emphasis on the advantageousness of the starting positions. I’ve written paragraphs and paragraphs on game theory with hysteria, but simply removing telecow does not make the the scheme a better competitive scheme, just more broken. The top hysteria players are the best not because they are the most cheap, but the most skilled.
И снова все упирается в тактические нюансы. Я не буду ничего больше говорить об этом, уже все написал выше. Пускай каждый останется при своем мнении.
And again, it all comes down to tactical nuances. I will not say anything more about this, I have already written everything above. Let everyone remain unconvinced.
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If piling is illegal hysteria needs worm placement. Making it illegal to pile puts too much emphasis on the advantageousness of the starting positions. I’ve written paragraphs and paragraphs on game theory with hysteria, but simply removing telecow does not make the the scheme a better competitive scheme, just more broken.
This.
It's ridiculous people even complain about turn abuse in this scheme when turn abuse is a fundamental tactic of the whole f**king franchise! :D ;D
Yeah but turn rotation abuse in Hysteria is overwhelming and also easier to execute. In Elite teleports and mobility are limited. In Intermediate you have worm selects. In Team17 you have worm select and you can group your worms before the SD starts. In Hysteria you can get close to winning solely by abusing turn rotation and forcing SD. Then it comes down to 1 or 2 shots. Even the best players miss those sometimes. To me Hysteria is like playing BnG with 50 HP or so (who gets to shoot first is determined by the early game). The better aimer wins most of the time but I'd imagine the winning ratios of the top players to be slightly worse.
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Being sincere, I avoid abusing the worm rotation when I play Hysteria. I do prefer playing it essencially as an artillery scheme rather than a tactical scheme. In my opinion, the rotation abuse removes the full potencial of the scheme to be a complete artillery game. And that is what Hysteria is to me. It is a multiple weapon options 1 second artillery scheme specialized on quick thinking of (hot)key combinations.
Hysteria for me is the best of the best artillery scheme of WA. For me, it is better than BnG that only uses two weapons (even though they are the most versatile and hard to master weapons), Hysteria is better than Forts which many times end on the Sudden Death in a way that the whole game seems to be a complete beating around the bush thing until Sudden Death that will decide the game on the very end with the girders on the top of the forts of each team. One of the most unique things I like in forts are the Sheep Launcher + Low Gravity throws. They are amazing and I don't understand why people don't like Sheep Launcher + LG in Forts.
Hysteria is incredible, because you have the Jep Pack that makes the scheme a lot more interesting, and players really need to be agile on the keyboard combo keys. The Hot-Seat time is also something important in this scheme because you really need to think what you are going to do on that 1 second. Even teleporting in one second is funny, it is challenging. So, I really think that worm rotation abuse is not the ideal scenario to play an artillery game like Hysteria is.
Aerial is also an amazing scheme, that for me is very similar to hysteria, but more focused on jet pack.
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Yeah but turn rotation abuse in Hysteria is overwhelming and also easier to execute.
Maybe it is overwhelming for you, and easier to your belief for you to execute, that absolutely does not apply to everyone.
In my opinion, it all comes down to being able to adapt to any situation, the great thing about Hysteria is there are so many different styles of people to play, and it's beautiful to see people have their own style and morals(so long as they don't complain about others) and the true master is the one who doesn't complain, the one who can adapt and compete in any given situation.
My point still stands, regardless of how you personally feel about it, any excuse you or anyone else attempts to create. The fact is, turn abuse is a major tactic in this entire franchise, and saying it's immoral, lame, unfair, broken etc, really just shows a persons own subjective feelings and their inability to handle it, especially since the scheme has NO RULES.
To me Hysteria is like playing BnG with 50 HP or so (who gets to shoot first is determined by the early game). The better aimer wins most of the time but I'd imagine the winning ratios of the top players to be slightly worse.
That is a ridiculous, far-fetched and pathetic comparison in my opinion, but fair enough it's your opinion lol.
What I love about Hysteria the most is how completely balanced it is, it doesn't matter how good your starting positions are, how your opponents plays, if you are clever enough and good enough, good at following and estimating your opponents strategy, their strengths and weaknesses, you can adapt to any situation and win any match. In fact the only reason I stopped playing it really is because I got fed up playing noobs who complained about piling and stuff.
Trying to add rules, and take away the balance with things like select worm, no piling, no suicide, worm placement, makes it easier to make people comfortable and ruins what I see as an almost perfect scheme.
You can come at me with any situation, any complaint, and I will counter it with logical and reasonable examples and experiences. The beauty of Hysteria is the fact it is no rules and absolute freedom. You can either embrace it and enjoy it's purity, or fight against it in an attempt to accommodate your own insecurities.
I have absolutely no problem with people who just say "I don't like it" and then explain why, but those who spread false information saying it's broke, making up rules that don't exist, using literally stupid terminology like "Telecow", that is what irritates me.
Edit - Oh, nice reply FoxHound, have you thought about creating your own scheme to make it less strategy based and more artillery based?
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Maybe it is overwhelming for you
You said that turn abuse is fundamental tactic in this game. I just wanted to point out that there is more of turn abuse in Hysteria than in some other schemes. I think that is something you can observe/measure from the replays?
But yeah, I actually do think there is a bit too much of turn abuse going on to my taste. I guess for the same reason people have made these randomsterias and selecsterias (which make the scheme worse imo) over the years. I never said Hysteria is broken, don't put that in my mouth.
and easier to your belief for you to execute, that absolutely does not apply to everyone.
It's logically easier to abuse turn rotation when you have the tools for it (teleports / mobility items) while the opponent doesn't have the counter-tools (worm select) to avoid it. I don't understand how you can argue against that lol.
That is a ridiculous, far-fetched and pathetic comparison in my opinion, but fair enough it's your opinion lol.
Calling other members' opinions ridiculous and pathetic is how you talk on these forums? :D
"Hysteria is like BnG with 50 HP" was a description of a game that goes into SD with 1 worm alive in both teams. HP isn't that important because one shot can easily plop a worm. I think that's pretty accurate description of such a game (see examples below)? Of course not every Hysteria game is like that. The point is that one can often force the game into that if he likes.
https://www.tus-wa.com/tournaments/download/game-222199-1/
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/download/game-217188-1/
https://www.tus-wa.com/cups/download/game-223521-4/
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/download/game-219383-1/
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You said that turn abuse is fundamental tactic in this game. I just wanted to point out that there is more of turn abuse in Hysteria than in some other schemes. I think that is something you can observe/measure from the replays?
But yeah, I actually do think there is a bit too much of turn abuse going on to my taste. I guess for the same reason people have made these randomsterias and selecsterias (which make the scheme worse imo) over the years. I never said Hysteria is broken, don't put that in my mouth.
It's a fundamental tactic of the entire franchise, yes.
I disagree, for starters, it's not abuse. Let us get that out the way, we should all stop using a literally incorrect term:
(https://i.imgur.com/F1GaGXs.png)
I have played and watched a lot of schemes since 1999, both league matches and casual matches, 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and from my experience there is as much turn order manipulation in Hysteria than any other scheme.
When given the opportunity, when a player has less worms than their enemy, they will pile, they will do what it takes within the rules(if any) to win, it happens in Roper, WxW, Aerial, Intermediate, Elite and just about every other scheme that exists where it is possible. If they do not pile they are foolish, I couldn't care less about their feelings.
Now, if someone was willing to pay me to go through every single replay on every single league and come up with real statistics and percentages, i'd do it, otherwise i'm not going to spend my time on something i'm very sure i'm right on. In a situation where turn order manipulation is indeed used more in Hysteria than any other scheme, let's say at least 25% more than any other scheme, it still would not change the fact there is nothing wrong with the scheme.
I think it's foolish not to take advantage of a pile when one is presented, regardless of the situation, especially if you are behind.
Even IF you were right, even IF it happens more than other schemes, it still doesn't make it a bad thing.
It's logically easier to abuse turn rotation when you have the tools for it (teleports / mobility items) while the opponent doesn't have the counter-tools (worm select) to avoid it. I don't understand how you can argue against that lol.
Again, it's not abuse if it's not against rules and used as a legitimate strategy.
Moving on, i'm not sure what your purpose is by even bringing this up, what you just said is very obvious and pretty sure everyone already knows that. Also, I was not arguing against that, in fact I cannot recall even mentioning it?
Calling other members' opinions ridiculous and pathetic is how you talk on these forums? :D
It is my opinion, that your opinion is ridiculous, far-fetched, and pathetic, why is that so bad?
It is ridiculous because it is absurd and laughable, it is far-fetched because I have many thousands of hours of experience in both schemes and know they are completely different, and it is pathetic because it is a contemptibly inadequate comparison, in my opinion. I did not call YOU as a person any of these words, I still have a lot of respect for you and simply arguing against your words, not you as a person.
"Hysteria is like BnG with 50 HP" was a description of a game that goes into SD with 1 worm alive in both teams. HP isn't that important because one shot can easily plop a worm. I think that's pretty accurate description of such a game (see examples below)? Of course not every Hysteria game is like that. The point is that one can often force the game into that if he likes.
https://www.tus-wa.com/tournaments/download/game-222199-1/
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/download/game-217188-1/
https://www.tus-wa.com/cups/download/game-223521-4/
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/download/game-219383-1/
Again, I think it's a ridiculous, far-fetched and pathetic comparison because BnG with 50HP and an entire Hysteria where you begin with 4 worms and can control the outcome, are completely different.
Now, had you said something like:
"The last moments of many Hysteria games can be compared to a BnG with little HP as it usually comes down to 1 worm against 1 worm with little health, or needing 1 shot to win"
But that is not what you said, you compared the entire course of every Hysteria match, against an incredibly short BnG match, and that literally made me laugh.
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Senator mentioned one of my tactics which would make hysteria a bit of a coin toss. I'd force SD and wait for the final shots in games. There were much better hysteria players than me like Chelsea of Gabriel and i'd force a BnG situation to play my advantage vs trying to combat their good lg combo moves which i can't pull off.
I remember Mablak always forcing SD in Hysteria as well.
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Yep, if you are on top, and have more health, generally you want to force SD, if you are below and trying to edge a comeback, you want to delay SD as long as possible.
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I disagree, for starters, it's not abuse. Let us get that out the way, we should all stop using a literally incorrect term:
Komo, while I agree with the things you are saying in this thread, I completely disagree with the way you usually bring out the "exact definition" of a word. I'm sure you know that most people on these forums don't have English as their first -or native- language. Even if that doesn't mean you are wrong, you usually end up coming as pedantic. Some people might say "but muh crystal generation", but I just felt like pointing this out.
In Spanish, for example, you would say "abusar" to mean you are using something exceedingly. And, to be honest, I don't want to spend 10 years reading the exact definition of English words, because I'm already taking my time and effort to type in a language to make a point, and the "exact definition" of the word won't necessarily give anything of value to a discussion. When you say "telecow" is the wrong term, hell, who cares? It's there and people use it to make their point clear.
It is my opinion, that your opinion is ridiculous, far-fetched, and pathetic, why is that so bad?
It is ridiculous because it is absurd and laughable, it is far-fetched because I have many thousands of hours of experience in both schemes and know they are completely different, and it is pathetic because it is a contemptibly inadequate comparison, in my opinion. I did not call YOU as a person any of these words, I still have a lot of respect for you and simply arguing against your words, not you as a person.
This wording makes one think that hours spent in a scheme necessarily makes you better at understanding things about it; I somewhat disagree with it, but that's besides the point. BnG and Hysteria are completely different things, and a comparison is out of place. I don't want to sound like some Mole Shopper players and say "hysteria is the hardest scheme", but no, dude, the only common factor is that both have "accuracy" in their keys to success, but its weight is completely different in each one.
Even with the things you say, people can force SD. That means you lose about 10 turns doing absolutely nothing, which means you can do the following things:
- Make for good spots for hiding in the late game
- Destroy one side of the map, and take control of the other
- Dig to try and kill the other person
Every game is different.
Being sincere, I avoid abusing the worm rotation when I play Hysteria. I do prefer playing it essentially as an artillery scheme rather than a tactical scheme. In my opinion, the rotation abuse removes the full potential of the scheme to be a complete artillery game. And that is what Hysteria is to me.
While I agree wholeheartedly with this point of view, I really don't think Hysteria is a complete artillery game.
People, we have had this argument for years and years and years. Hysteria has no rules. Telecow makes up for bad starting placements. The whole dream of it being an artillery game is an utopia that lives in funners.
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Hey Gabriel,
Komo, while I agree with the things you are saying in this thread, I completely disagree with the way you usually bring out the "exact definition" of a word. I'm sure you know that most people on these forums don't have English as their first -or native- language. Even if that doesn't mean you are wrong, you usually end up coming as pedantic. Some people might say "but muh crystal generation", but I just felt like pointing this out.
In Spanish, for example, you would say "abusar" to mean you are using something exceedingly. And, to be honest, I don't want to spend 10 years reading the exact definition of English words, because I'm already taking my time and effort to type in a language to make a point, and the "exact definition" of the word won't necessarily give anything of value to a discussion. When you say "telecow" is the wrong term, hell, who cares? It's there and people use it to make their point clear.
I copied and pasted the exact definition of the word for that specific reason, so that there are no mistakes when using it, and for anyone who wasn't sure, or didn't know, it's there for them to learn and memorize.
I completely get what you are saying, and furthermore understand how it makes me look to a lot of people and i'm ok with that, mastering the English language is something I always strive for.
On one side of the see-saw, there is "pedantic" on the other side of the see-saw there is careless, or lazy, or sloppy, undemanding, etc. Fact is there will always be people who view the opposite perspective as negative or not in tune with their goals. In this case, funny enough, it's an abusive use of the word abuse so it's hardly a minor detail. 8)
You ask "Who cares?", I ask, "Why would someone not care?". I don't believe there is danger or harm in my actions anyway.
When I am enjoying casual fun with friends, or family, I pretty much never act like this, it's only when we are mutually engaged in a debate where I act in a manner being precise and deliberate with my words, because it's very important.
The truth is, if one side gave up, the other side would win with ease, I believe it's important to clear up any misunderstandings and be as literal and informative as possible when discussing things that, especially in this case, could potentially alter the way we play league matches.
This wording makes one think that hours spent in a scheme necessarily makes you better at understanding things about it
The way I worded was purely meant to show that I am actually capable of understanding it, not to mean that I am better than anyone else. If it came across that way I apologize.
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Edit - Oh, nice reply FoxHound, have you thought about creating your own scheme to make it less strategy based and more artillery based?
Yes, I thought about making a 3.8 Hysteria version in this artillery direction and having no rules, but I do think Kaleu's Selecsteria is a good 3.8 version of Hysteria. I still need to play it more times to form a solid opinion about Selecsteria gameplay, but the games I played with him were very good, because it has no rules and there is no excessive use of the worm rotation (avoiding the word abuse as you shared the dictionary meaning). Actually you can hide worms in caves saving them for later while you attack always with the same worm.
The only changes I would make to Selecsteria would be adding 9 seconds grenades and add Phased Worms (Allied) Worms + Weapons feature to avoid the "instant self-hit bazooka phenomenon" (even with the petrol flamelets issue), to allow Jet Pack bazooka shots against the wind with no fear of exploding your own worm. Maybe random worm order instead of selecting worms. Too radical changes to the scheme would'nt be so accepted by the players, and wouldn't be an original scheme. It would be just another Hysteria variation around WormNET and I already created 2 Hysteria variations (1HP Hysteria (https://worms2d.info/1HP_Hysteria) and Hyteria Arsenal (https://worms2d.info/Hysteria_Arsenal)) and 1 one different scheme based on it (Jet Pack War (https://worms2d.info/Jet_Pack_War)). I plan to update these schemes to 3.8 one day, I already started to test a Jet Pack War update, but I'm more focused on 3 other schemes right now: one is a Conventional gameplay scheme, other is a roping (battle) scheme and the last one I'm about to release is called Destructible Walk for Weapons (the name says everything you should know about it) and all people I played enjoyed the idea.
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The way I worded was purely meant to show that I am actually capable of understanding it, not to mean that I am better than anyone else. If it came across that way I apologize.
No no, no need for apologies, the last part was a generalization, not aimed towards you in particular. I know you have experience in both schemes, but... you know, there are people that just do the same things over and over, and don't explore the schemes to its core, which is certainly not your case.
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I used the word abuse because I've seen it being used in this context in other games as well. I guess people use it intentionally to make the use of something sound bad.
Even IF you were right, even IF it happens more than other schemes, it still doesn't make it a bad thing.
Yep! I was only commenting the argument that it happens in other schemes too, claiming that there is a difference in how much it happens. I didn't mean to say that it makes the scheme broken or anything.
It's logically easier to abuse turn rotation when you have the tools for it (teleports / mobility items) while the opponent doesn't have the counter-tools (worm select) to avoid it. I don't understand how you can argue against that lol.
Moving on, i'm not sure what your purpose is by even bringing this up, what you just said is very obvious and pretty sure everyone already knows that. Also, I was not arguing against that, in fact I cannot recall even mentioning it?
Oh, there must have been some kind of misunderstanding then
Yeah but turn rotation abuse in Hysteria is overwhelming and also easier to execute. In Elite teleports and mobility are limited. In Intermediate you have worm selects. In Team17 you have worm select and you can group your worms before the SD starts.
Maybe it is overwhelming for you, and easier to your belief for you to execute, that absolutely does not apply to everyone.
By "easier to execute" I was literally referring to the tools you have / don't have in Hysteria compared to some other schemes. And you seemed to question that comment.
It is my opinion, that your opinion is ridiculous, far-fetched, and pathetic, why is that so bad?
I don't know, that sounds a bit disrespectful to me..?
Now, had you said something like:
"The last moments of many Hysteria games can be compared to a BnG with little HP as it usually comes down to 1 worm against 1 worm with little health, or needing 1 shot to win"
But that is not what you said, you compared the entire course of every Hysteria match, against an incredibly short BnG match, and that literally made me laugh.
Yes, it was an extreme simplification where I cut everything that happens before that stage because many games seem to lead to that same situation.
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I used the word abuse because I've seen it being used in this context in other games as well. I guess people use it intentionally to make the use of something sound bad.
That is a good point, and essentially the reason why people use it, however that's the exact reason I don't like it, they are using a specific word intentionally to make something out as if it is universally bad. Not just that they personally think it's bad, but that everyone should think it's bad, and that's immoral in my opinion.
The problem is, this sort of issue can lead to new players being misinformed, if 2 new players join a game of 4 good players and those good players are using this term "Turn Order Abuse" and "Telecow is bad" etc, those 2 players are going to think this is normal, then those 2 player might introduce some friends and pass this on, and before you know it we have dozens of players who have been misinformed.
Even worse, now because their time has been invested into believing something it's going to be much more difficult to correct that misconception because it's a psychologically known phenomena that it's harder to help someone change their opinion or belief the longer they have had it.
Which is why it's so difficult to reveal the truth and natural state in things like racism, homophobia, fear and even simple silly ideas like the earth is flat in grown adults(but not impossible!).
Now, in my eyes, I don't care if even 50% of all Hysteria players think it's bad to use turn order manipulation, pile worms, suicide with jetpack or teleport etc. My problem is and always has been people spreading lies and misinformation about it. There are no rules in Hysteria and I don't like people acting like there is without making it clear that their preference is not the standard/classic scheme settings/rules.
Yep! I was only commenting the argument that it happens in other schemes too, claiming that there is a difference in how much it happens. I didn't mean to say that it makes the scheme broken or anything.
You didn't actually say the scheme was broken and I apologize I did mean to say that in my last post but I forgot, but this is what I was going to write about that:
I know you didn't say the scheme was broken, but when I say that, it is aimed at anyone who does, not any specific individual.
Yeah but turn rotation abuse in Hysteria is overwhelming and also easier to execute. In Elite teleports and mobility are limited. In Intermediate you have worm selects. In Team17 you have worm select and you can group your worms before the SD starts.
Personally speaking I don't think it's any easier in Hysteria than any other scheme, maybe rope because you need physical skills there at times to actually reach in time.
But in Intermediate, Elite, Team17, it's not exactly hard to click a button and teleport to pile another worm, which is why it's just as easy in Hysteria as it is Elite/Intermediate etc. You could actually argue it is more challenging to execute a pile in Hysteria because you have only 1 second to aim and click to do it.
As for maintaining worm order manipulation and getting the most out of it, I honestly think it comes down to an individual players intelligence and mechanical abilities, regardless of the scheme.
I would probably agree with you if you said something like:
"Piling is an almost expected tactic in Hysteria, which people will sacrifice their worms in order to get that worm order manipulation, whereas in other schemes it's usually a last resort kind of thing that a player will never try to put themselves in a position of being behind in order to achieve it."
Would you say that the above is a more accurate description of what you are trying to say? Which also, I think is one of the biggest nuances people have with the whole strategy, is the fact that people can, and some will usually sacrifice their worms immediately just to get into that situation and it annoys a lot of people.
I even understand why it annoys people, it's been discussed many times over the years, they think it's stupid a that a valid strategy would be to kill off 3 of your worms immediately, but I think the problem isn't the scheme, it's a persons mentality and their perspective.
It's not the schemes fault they don't like it. Just like when people hide on top in Roper you just have to deal with it.
By "easier to execute" I was literally referring to the tools you have / don't have in Hysteria compared to some other schemes. And you seemed to question that comment.
I think i've cleared that up now with the last quote reply.
It is my opinion, that your opinion is ridiculous, far-fetched, and pathetic, why is that so bad?
I don't know, that sounds a bit disrespectful to me..?
Sorry if I disrespected you.
I explained why those words were specifically picked and I don't see them as disrespectful, in future I will try and use a different approach if we ever have this kind of conversation again.
Yes, it was an extreme simplification where I cut everything that happens before that stage because many games seem to lead to that same situation.
See, you should have said that at the time. :P
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I find the entire premise of "Turn Abuse" to be deeply, deeply baffling.
"Garcon! There appears to be strategy in my strategy game!"
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Lol yeah.
I get it though, personally I wish girders didn't exist in the entire franchise, but it is what it is and I deal with it and use them because it's foolish not to. :)
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"Piling is an almost expected tactic in Hysteria, which people will sacrifice their worms in order to get that worm order manipulation, whereas in other schemes it's usually a last resort kind of thing that a player will never try to put themselves in a position of being behind in order to achieve it."
Would you say that the above is a more accurate description of what you are trying to say?
I was just saying that you have more tools (and opportunities) to use worm rotation advantage. I forgot to say that I'm only talking about piling, not other ways of manipulating turn rotation.
Elite - limited number of teleports and ropes so you might not be able to pile as much as you would like to (compare to Hysteria where you can pile, then move to another pile etc), manual worm placement so the opponent can have his worms grouped from the start, girders so the opponent can block the pile.
Intermediate - worm selects to counter piling attempts, girders for blocking a pile
Team17 - worm select to counter piling attempts, plenty of time to group worms before the SD starts, girders for blocking a pile
Hysteria - unlimited number of teleports and jet pack so you can pile as much as you want. depending on the starting positions, the opponent can or cannot have his worms grouped in the early game. a typical situation is when you kill a worm or the opponent sacrifices his worm and then you get immediately piled without having other worms nearby to cover that worm.
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Yes, there are more potential opportunities to pile worms in Hysteria due to the fast paced nature of the scheme and infinite teleports, but it doesn't make it easier to actually pull off, or a guaranteed success. I also think there is a lot more potential to defend/counter piles in Hysteria than any other scheme because it is almost never a surprise.
I don't see this as a bad thing, in fact it's one of the most rewarding feelings in Hysteria when you outsmart/outplay someone on offence or defence, when they pile you and you get a beautiful SG or petrol to split up the pile. Or when you get such a good pile they would need the skills of TA to retaliate. That feeling of achievement when you pull off a critical shot at a critical moment to save the game or finish it.
There are counter tactics to pretty much every pile, even a 100% complete ghost, which is when your worm and enemy worm are in the exact same position and it looks like just 1 worm.
I've had some truly awesome Hysteria games when playing clanners for cFc with daina and lalo where this would happen frequently and the adrenaline rush of having to adapt to any situation on the spot is so exciting!
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Hysteria can be played really lame.. Depends of the players...