The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
One-Boards => Schemes => Topic started by: Kradie on August 28, 2021, 04:26 AM
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In recent times I have taken notice that some (without knowing the numbers) people play Team17 in open maps, rather to play Team17 in twin tunnel cave maps. For me the open map is blasphemy because I have always played Team17 in twin tunnel cave maps, even back in 2004. Some could argue that open maps are better for many reasons, and these reasons could make the scheme more Interesting. But if it that is the case, wouldn't that change the scheme integrity? Couldn't it be possible to change the name of the scheme to help differentiate the map preference?
Though if you would argue that open Team17 maps were a thing 20 years ago, then it is still a problem IMO.
Thoughts?
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I learned about the T17 island relatively recently and for me it was an unexpected and pleasant discovery, I did not even think before that it was possible, but it is not worth changing the name because of this, because if you follow this logic, can change the name of all the schemes, which are used on the island and the cave ... For example, the island normal and the normal cave are also different and have their own specifics and imply different tactics, but for some reason no one will be outraged.
Currently, island T17 is not very popular and is played only with the consent of both players, so I think you should not worry, because for now, the priority will be the twin tunnel, but personally I would like to see T17 played in the BO3 format in the future. with a combination of island and cave maps.
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Why there is no option for both types?
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I am not sure if Team17 should follow the same formula as Intermediate, but that's coming from someone who was born into the fact that Team17 is strictly played in twin tunnel cave maps.
Best of 3 are very time consuming and Team17 is very time consuming enough. There is no need for potential 1 hour of play...
Why there is no option for both types?
Because I am curious what you prefer the most.
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I used to always play on double cavern, and had the initial gut reaction you're having when island T17 was first introduced to me. But having played hundreds of island T17s over the last year or so I have to say I've definitely come around. I think it actually adds to the strategy because you have to consider so many more potential attack vectors and the maps generated usually result in more interesting jumps and chutes. As with any scheme that relies on random maps, the complexity of the match and strategy required is generally a result of the complexity and uniqueness of the map. That's why picking a good generated map and doodad placement is sort of an art form.
I don't really think it hurts the "integrity" of the scheme.. I actually think it bolsters it, showing that the same scheme can be played well on just about any map type. Deadcode and I have also played quite a few matches on other types of caverns and islands and it's almost always enjoyable.
If you haven't played much island T17, I would suggest trying it more before forming a strong opinion.
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Best of 3 are very time consuming and Team17 is very time consuming enough. There is no need for potential 1 hour of play...
Talking about that, cave T17 takes more time because it ends in late SD most of the time and sometimes draws occur because of lack of SD weapons.
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You don't always have to do something to make sense of it, when you already know the physics of the game engine it's not difficult to judge something new that you haven't played before.
I'm going to talk about this purely as a spectator, and it's entirely my opinion. As even though I really enjoy watching the classic Team17 map system, i've never cared for playing any form of Team17. The only time i've enjoyed playing Team17 is when Mablak was my partner because, well, it's Mablak and it's the teamwork that makes it fun with him. :D
To cut to the chase, i've recently grown to utterly despise Island Team17 as a spectator, especially after watching some clanners.
This analogy makes sense to me, it might not make sense to others:
Watching Team17 in dual layer cavern is similar to listening to a really well composed song.
It has a mostly empty beginning(collecting crates), as the song progresses on there are little bits of interesting action going on here and there(Some attacks/attempts to kill worms). The song finally reaches it's crescendo(the highest point reached in a progressive increase of intensity) where the most interesting action happens and you get to see the big SD plays happen.
Island Team17 on the other hand...
As always, it's still nice to see creativity that the players come up with, however it's really lacking that Sudden Death intensity which makes Team17 absolutely shine in my opinion. I can see why it's fun for Team17 players who enjoy Battlerace mechanics and chuting around, having a new environment to adapt to, that isn't really that fun to watch though for me personally.
As a spectator it just looks even more luck based, this doesn't mean it doesn't have skill, it still takes a lot of skill to master the weapons, get around the map quickly and think of creative solutions on the spot. Though at the same time the map is just so open it doesn't feel like a controlled environment at all. You don't have anywhere near the same level of protection and map control because crates aren't as defined by the map on their arrival. Then there are way more airstrike weapons and possible attacks, even when you get blocked there's a high chance you will have picked up and air strike weapon, which i've seen multiple times already. This scheme, more than ever feels like getting the right weapons at the right time will give you the win, more than dual cavern.
Maybe if we had the ability to see what the players actually have, then as a spectator you could have an extra level of excitement, like watching a soap drama when you know information that they don't know about each other, and the tension you feel as it plays out.
I feel like any average player who kind of knows what they are doing can get lucky and beat a top player, which is also why I believe Team17 in general is more popular, it's easier to play and win. It's more fun for casual players.
I'd like if the most experienced players could go into great detail explaining, in their own words, the benefits and reasons to enjoy this scheme. Maybe i'm looking at this scheme with a closed mind.
Right now though, i'm just glad you are allowed to refuse Island Team17 in the Allround League.
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I enjoyed a lot playing T17 on open maps, just like only crates was played in WWP. It is nice. The Sudden Death at caves can take the game too long and may end frequently in a draw. Open maps allow more weapons to the game and weapons that people rarely use, like MB Bomb. I think to play Island T17 you need a good scheme and the one being used for this is great.
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I enjoy playing on two-layered caverns too, but I think usually playing on islands is better, no matter the scheme.
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As a spectator it just looks even more luck based, this doesn't mean it doesn't have skill, it still takes a lot of skill to master the weapons, get around the map quickly and think of creative solutions on the spot. Though at the same time the map is just so open it doesn't feel like a controlled environment at all. You don't have anywhere near the same level of protection and map control because crates aren't as defined by the map on their arrival. Then there are way more airstrike weapons and possible attacks, even when you get blocked there's a high chance you will have picked up and air strike weapon, which i've seen multiple times already. This scheme, more than ever feels like getting the right weapons at the right time will give you the win, more than dual cavern.
I disagree that island is more luck based than cavern. It's just that in dual cavern the luck is often all about getting good weapons for SD.
Luck in games is one factor that makes them interesting and replayable. Mitigating your bad luck by anticipating what weapons your opponent has and how they might use them is what differentiates good players from bad.
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I disagree that island is more luck based than cavern. It's just that in dual cavern the luck is often all about getting good weapons for SD.
Yes, and now in Island Team17, there is more luck because there are more opportunities, more weapons, more room to do stuff. You don't have as much protection, there are more ways to attack and be attacked, it's more challenging to control areas of the map because the map is open.
Every single crate you pick up has the power to sway the game, getting the right thing at the right time, or getting the right thing at the wrong time etc.
In caverns, you can control the map better because of the design and actual weapons that spawn in crates.
Luck in games is one factor that makes them interesting and replayable. Mitigating your bad luck by anticipating what weapons your opponent has and how they might use them is what differentiates good players from bad.
Some people like luck in games, some don't. I prefer to play in as luckless an environment as possible when it comes to competitive events. Then again, millions of people love playing slot machines. :D
I think it was HHC who said a similar thing before, that the luck factor makes these games really fun, especially in Roper and Team17.
I'm not having a go at people who enjoy it, different strokes for different folks, personally I don't want anything to do with Island Team17 though, it just gets me frustrated even thinking about that scheme. :(
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Yes, and now in Island Team17, there is more luck because there are more opportunities, more weapons, more room to do stuff. You don't have as much protection, there are more ways to attack and be attacked, it's more challenging to control areas of the map because the map is open.
Every single crate you pick up has the power to sway the game, getting the right thing at the right time, or getting the right thing at the wrong time etc.
In caverns, you can control the map better because of the design and actual weapons that spawn in crates.
I really think it's just about the same amount of luck involved, just different types. In caverns, where the crate spawns is a huge luck factor as well. Initial worm spawns can also heavily influence the game. Any differences are pretty insignificant when looking at the game as a whole.
I'm not having a go at people who enjoy it, different strokes for different folks, personally I don't want anything to do with Island Team17 though, it just gets me frustrated even thinking about that scheme. :(
It sort of seems like you're having a slight go at people who enjoy it by equating it to slots and downplaying the skill involved. If it gets you frustrated thinking about it, and you don't want anything to do with it, why are you here? I guess I was a bit bummed to see this Island T17-bashing thread right when we're trying to hype up this cup and get our remaining players. I would think you as the cup moderator would want to help with that cause rather than try to turn people off to the entire format..
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I really think it's just about the same amount of luck involved, just different types. In caverns, where the crate spawns is a huge luck factor as well. Initial worm spawns can also heavily influence the game. Any differences are pretty insignificant when looking at the game as a whole.
Guess we can agree to disagree there then.
It sort of seems like you're having a slight go at people who enjoy it by equating it to slots and downplaying the skill involved. If it gets you frustrated thinking about it, and you don't want anything to do with it, why are you here? I guess I was a bit bummed to see this Island T17-bashing thread right when we're trying to hype up this cup and get our remaining players. I would think you as the cup moderator would want to help with that cause rather than try to turn people off to the entire format..
You have the wrong idea Syc.
I was not equating Team17 to slots, that part of my reply was generally talking about how people in general find luck fun.
Think of it like this, I was agreeing with you that people enjoy luck in games, then saying, people even enjoy playing slots because slots are way worse.
This thread was made so I wanted to write my personal opinions about the scheme.
Besides, you have more players in a Cup than i've seen for many years, you have nothing to worry about lol. :)
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I contemplated whether to make this topic at the very start of Syc's Team17 cup. Then later it was specified it was open map, and that prompted me to ask the question why do some people prefer open maps for Team17? I wished to understand why, and so far I have received a fair amount of reasons here and there and I get it I sympathize with both sides. The question becomes if I am willing to roll over and adapt myself to this new way.
If more people in the future will ask for Island Teqm17 instead of the traditional map, then the latter may phase out in favor of the former. If I for example would host a Team17 and someone would join and ask for Island, and I would say ''no'' then this person could leave. It could be like e.g: I host a Shopper on a Roper map, or a Roper on a Shopper map. I guess no one would play a roper on a shopper map? I know I wouldn't.
Yes I know it is a game and people should play how they like that's fine and all. BUT in general term. there has to be some standards set for those who prefer such. That's why maybe I think Island Team17 needs its own name to help separate itself from the traditional Team17, Island17 e.g.
When it comes to this cup I think the turnout is great and I am happy to see this sort of engagement in the community. So kudos to Syc :)
I meant no disrespect.
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Well there were 1 (https://www.tus-wa.com/tournaments/tournament-1101/), 2 (https://www.tus-wa.com/tournaments/tournament-1102/), 3 (https://www.tus-wa.com/tournaments/tournament-1106/) tournaments and the league (https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/worms-armageddon/worms-history-from-rankings-to-the-birth-of-tus-15257/msg277927/#msg277927), where islands were favored and it proved to be as good as cave atleast.
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I haven't felt like there's a big difference in the amount of luck in cavern/island maps tbh. My winning ratio in island maps is also similar to what I have in cavern maps. Easy first turn plops can be avoided to some extent by choosing the map carefully. They happen quite rarely and it's not like you can't win from 3vs4. There's usually some trade-off when you go for a first turn kill (worse position, no crate or something).
Yes, and now in Island Team17, there is more luck because there are more opportunities, more weapons, more room to do stuff. You don't have as much protection, there are more ways to attack and be attacked, it's more challenging to control areas of the map because the map is open.
Those things add to the complexity/strategy and that's what makes T17 in island maps more interesting to me. As Run said on Discord:
Run — 20/09/2020
there was a point where, after about 10 years of t17s, i finally decided i didn't actually like them that much. there was this one game with Noodles/WormZ where we both kinda realised they were very formulaic (i wonder if i can find that game)... but that was cavern t17s. i've grown a fondness for island t17s for now just because i find myself having to think a lot harder, whereas with cavern t17s almost every move came to me as second-nature and it got a bit dull
however it's really lacking that Sudden Death intensity which makes Team17 absolutely shine in my opinion.
I feel like it's the opposite. SD in island maps is more interesting because there are more different scenarios and you can't freeze the game by simply blocking the tunnel with one girder. A lot of T17 games in cavern maps are just SD camping and then shooting SD weapons from the sides of the map. The T17 cup final games I had with Run (cavern maps) were more interesting than usually. There was actually some action in the SD (in one of the rounds there was a Select Worm in play, which explains).
IMO:
island Intermediate > cavern Intermediate
island Team17 > cavern Team17
island Elite > cavern Elite
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Also keep in mind, I stated at the very beginning my observations and opinion is based on spectating Island Team17s, not playing Island Team17s.
As I said, we can agree to disagree, as from what i've witnessed, Island Team17 games are far more wild and luck-based. The situation can change more rapidly depending on what crates people get. This is not related to the amount of skill whatsoever, both versions are still highly competitive and take a lot of practise to master all the strategies and mechanical skills. I am not saying there is no skill involved, it's still a great scheme for those who, for example as Chicken23 said, enjoy playing Poker.
I think people also assume sometimes that when "luck" is mentioned the person is implying there is no skill involved, that's not the case. When I say it's more luck-based, it simply means it's more out of your control based on map design and the amount of weapons and their probabilities.
Island Team17 is more challenging to win because there are more things going on, including crate luck being more open, less defense, more challenging to control the map and crate zones, more options for attacking in sudden death.
Based on statistics:
Worms League (Team17) by Syc, Hulk and Zemke
Results: https://kingbird.myphotos.cc/c1627cb9d01f77729b6eafb3e5535936/WL_player_stats.html
(thanks Deadcode and Dario)
Only Korydex had an exceptional win ratio with 80%(which is still lower than other schemes) if i'm not mistaken, everyone else was between 30-70%.
How many of those games were Cavern versus Island?
(https://i.imgur.com/Pkmvu92.png)
Random00 had 82% which is comparable to Korydex in WL.
TUS Team17 ERA #1 - Cavern maps only:
68% for top 10 average, 70% for top 5 average and 72% for top 3.
WL Team17 - Includes Island Maps:
55% for top 10 average, 60% for top 5 and 66% for top 3.
Maybe my opinion might not prove anything, surely those statistics mean something though?
Obviously TUS had WAY more games and players combined, though I don't really see anyone having much higher win ratios unless they really noob bash a lot.
I'd be interested in seeing a TRL Season of Island Team17 here on TUS, with as many active players as possible, all playing each other quite fairly.
I'd love to see a few players who are so good they still have much higher win ratios than most other good players, just like we see in BnG, TTRR, Shopper, WxW, etc...
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WL had only like 10-15 players playing against each other so you can't really compare the win rates like that. I shouldn't have brought up my own win rates either because I have only 69 singles league games in island maps (WL+TUS) against a small group of players.
Edit: I will say though that I wouldn't be playing T17 in island maps if I found it way more luck based. So far so good.
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The whole point of island t17 was to make a scheme that was playable on any map type, to help with in game ranks and be entry level for new players to competitive play, but still allow for experienced players to perform well over time.
The question shouldn't be about island or twin, but when will we stop playing with two fixed map types across all schemes and play them on any randomly generated map to help with bringing in entry level players to leagues, and create schemes for in-game ranks.
If you look harder enough at the WL replays you'll find some games played in caverns that aren't twin level.
T17, Elite, and Inter are all perfect for in game WA ranks where the map is fixed and cannot be changed unless you rehost, and is random.
Elite in caverns is a thing! (or was)
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I was curious and checked the FB archive (https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/worms-armageddon/old-replays-and-players-through-the-years-5644/msg278045/#msg278045) for stats of the most active T17 players. Here are the biggest winrates:
Ramb0 150 wins / 192 games = 78 % winrate
Mablak 117 wins / 150 games = 78 % winrate
FlowingWater 97 wins / 143 games = 67 % winrate
Syc 56 wins / 88 games = 63 % winrate
llvertigoll 86 wins / 139 games = 61 % winrate
(its only cave maps I guess)
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I will say though that I wouldn't be playing T17 in island maps if I found it way more luck based. So far so good.
The statistics and matches i've seen so far tell me it's more luck based.
More freedom, more weapons, more reachable drop zones, means luck by definition can dramatically affect the game more often. Yes, the luck can balance itself out, that's still more luck though.
It's likely more balanced luck, as you aren't stuck in a cavern with as many unfair SD weapons(1 team gets what they need, the other doesn't) and draws because nobody gets anything useful. Though it's still more luck due there just being more options, more randomness of crate probability as well as their drop zones and the other things i've mentioned.
It's as if people associate luck with being less skilled or bad, that isn't what i'm saying at all.
The reason I don't like playing it is because it's so unpredictable. I don't like relying on crates dropping within reach, not knowing if i'm going to be able to attack in my turn or not. Not knowing if my enemy has something better than me, and one of the reasons why other people like it so much, is because it's so unpredicatable lol.
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Yes, the luck can balance itself out, that's still more luck though.
If the luck balances out, you can't really say island T17s are more luck based.
It's as if people associate luck with being less skilled or bad, that isn't what i'm saying at all.
By definition, the more luck based something is, the less skill involved. They're inversely correlated. I don't think anyone thinks you're saying that T17 doesn't involve any skill at all, but by saying it's one of the more luck based schemes (but contradicting yourself by saying the luck balances out), you're effectively saying that it takes less skill than other schemes.
Basically every non-race scheme has a fair amount of luck in it but they tend to even out over time. I think one potential reason for lower win rates for T17 in past leagues is that it hasn't always been the most popular competitive scheme. If you only have the top T17 players playing each other, there won't be as high % win rate.
It's like Hearthstone or MTG or other card games.. they have heavy luck components and at the top level the highest win rates tend to start to even out at something like 70%. But there are dramatic skill differences in those games, even with the fairly limited number of decisions that can be made at each turn (compared to most worms schemes where the options are pretty limitless).
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By definition, the more luck based something is, the less skill involved. They're inversely correlated. I don't think anyone thinks you're saying that T17 doesn't involve any skill at all, but by saying it's one of the more luck based schemes (but contradicting yourself by saying the luck balances out), you're effectively saying that it takes less skill than other schemes.
That isn't true.
The mistake i've been doing this entire time(out of habit) is using the word "based".
I apologize for that and from now on won't say that when comparing Island Team17 to Cavern Team17.
Island Team17 involves more luck than Cavern Team17. That does not mean there is less skill involved.
If something has more luck, via random events out of your control, then you can manage that with more skill and experience. It seems to have a higher chance of balancing out as crates seem more easy to collect than in Cavern Team17 and i've seen enough games where both teams got powerful weapons.
It would feel more lucky to get all the good stuff while your opponent gets all the crap stuff now in Island Team17, meaning Cavern Team17 has a higher degree of one team getting screwed over by crate luck.
My very first impression when I saw ShyGuy streaming an Island Team17 Tournament was they require equal skill, though Island Team17 has more luck due to random looking events.
Now i'd say Island Team17 involves more critical thinking and adaptation, awareness of potential situations than Cavern Team17, because there is more luck.
This absolutely does not degrade the amount of skill involved, skill & experience comes with time and practise, luck is completely out of our control and always will be.
Basically every non-race scheme has a fair amount of luck in it but they tend to even out over time. I think one potential reason for lower win rates for T17 in past leagues is that it hasn't always been the most popular competitive scheme. If you only have the top T17 players playing each other, there won't be as high % win rate.
Team17 is definitely popular enough, I don't believe that is the reason. When I have more time later(about to do a music stream just now then 80hp Cup later) i'll do some actual statistics and compare schemes.
Shopper, Elite, Intermediate, Hysteria, Aerial, all have higher average win percentages in the top 10, those are not race schemes.
It's like Hearthstone or MTG or other card games.. they have heavy luck components and at the top level the highest win rates tend to start to even out at something like 70%. But there are dramatic skill differences in those games, even with the fairly limited number of decisions that can be made at each turn (compared to most worms schemes where the options are pretty limitless).
Never played those, though any card game with random dealing is bound to have a lot of luck involved.
I understand why there are so many of you who prefer Island over Cavern from what i've already said.
I'm just not a fan of randomness affecting a competitive game at every turn, regardless how much skill is involved in adapting to it.
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Luck does not mean you have less skill in a game. A player can have a lot more knowledge of a game than the other player, but if the game relies too much on luck the guy that has less knowledge and less training has more chances to win the game than games that relies less on luck. However, luck brings more fun to a game, it makes you think more, adds different situations you have to deal. I think too much luck in a scheme is usually not-so-good for a game, and a game that has zero % luck might be boring or repetitive over time. That's why games usually add a luck factor but not way too much to make it easy to see who is the more prepared player. A game with a lot of luck is more democratic and gives more chances to people who are learning to play have some games to shine and like playing it. But at the same time a too much luck game hides the real MVP of the game, what is usually bad when you want to see who is better in a competition. Game with a lot of luck doesn't mean that there are no amazing plays too. A good player can make amazing moves and still lose the game because the opponent was more lucky. It is still amazing to watch very lucky schemes.
Team17 is a classic scheme, it has surely lots of replays available to compare with other schemes. If you compare Team17 with the underground schemes it is way more known.
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Basically every non-race scheme has a fair amount of luck in it but they tend to even out over time. I think one potential reason for lower win rates for T17 in past leagues is that it hasn't always been the most popular competitive scheme. If you only have the top T17 players playing each other, there won't be as high % win rate.
Statistics have shown there is a strong inverse correlation between sparsely played schemes and high win%. So if T17 hasn't been the most popular scheme, you would expect the win% to be inversely proportional, as it is unilaterally with the other schemes with low games played.
The stats clearly show T17 to be an outlier and extremely volatile predictively when compared to the other schemes. Is T17 the most volatile scheme statistically because of the luck factor? I think you would have to say yes. Does T17 also have a high skill cap? I think you would also have to say yes.
I still want some statistics on island t17 vs cavern t17 to satiate my appetite for such things.
TL;DR: T17 is the most luck based scheme among the classic schemes but isn't comet dodging, good players still beat bad players at a high rate.
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btw the poll is missing the urban maps (https://www.tus-wa.com/maps/mappack-449/) xD